MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

mamamia12

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Because Erdogan randomly decided to buy S400 and tick off his country's American masters.

Remember, Turkey was such a (((trusted ally))) that they were onboard the F35 program and one of the first customers, onboard as in they would make parts that go into the F35, such were their homosexually close relations.

Now Erdogan also maintained a stealthy approach of behaving like a typical dhandhomaxing politician, but after he tamed the Turkish military( famous for coups ) in 2016, he showed his true green colors and picked up a fight with Uncle Sam and now France.

The result is now that their German( US vassal ) and American stuff based Armed forces are in peril.
The Russian is too busy, the quality of Chinese maal is unknown and they are in a fight with the Frenchman over Armenia :facepalm:
I mean iam asking about why they overlooked F-16 replacement.
 

shade

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I mean iam asking about why they overlooked F-16 replacement.
Because they were a US vassal earlier, so the eventual replacement for F16 would be the F35.

Now since they want to be Caliphate 2.0, and they have soured relations with everyone, they are in panik to diversify their fleet since no F35 will be sold to them.
Thier pilots are also trained only on F16, because such was the dog-like loyalty to the US, they never bothered to diversify their fleet.
 

BON PLAN

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So for total 120 numbers (40 new and 80 old upgrade) they are paying almost 200 million each.
What kind of rip off is this? It is surely biggest scam ever happened
Seems that there is a great amount of weapons in his deal.

But on the other side Turkey is blocked. The USA may offer a bad deal, Turkey is nearly forced to take it....
 

Blademaster

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It is a scam.
Now they wouldn't even get these F16s, Erdogan had to block Sweden or Finlands accession into NATO, and in exchange for allowing the accession of Sweden iirc, America offered the Khilafa the privelege to buy some more F16s at an inflated price.

Reason is the Turki Airforce only has F16s in it's inventory as a current gen fighter, they also have some F4s but those are vintage af.

They have an ongoing panga with France so no Rafales for them, no 4 country khichdi Eurofighter either and the Russians are too busy with their war to sell the Turks anything.


Meanwhile, the chad Greek airforce has F16s, Rafales and F35s on order.

Since Erdoggy took over and did the S400 wala drama, Turkey has become a dhobi ka kutta since almost all of their stuff is US or German :creepy:
And look at the numbers of fighter jets between Greece and Turkey. Greece has managed to achieve near parity in numbers with Turkish Air Force. Once Hellenic Air force phase out the Phantoms and induct the F-35s, Hellenic Air Force will have a dominating edge over Turkish Air Force despite Turkish fighter programs such as TAI TFX-Kaan stealth fighter (it is not even completed or inducted yet)
 

SilentlAssassin265

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And look at the numbers of fighter jets between Greece and Turkey. Greece has managed to achieve near parity in numbers with Turkish Air Force. Once Hellenic Air force phase out the Phantoms and induct the F-35s, Hellenic Air Force will have a dominating edge over Turkish Air Force despite Turkish fighter programs such as TAI TFX-Kaan stealth fighter (it is not even completed or inducted yet)
The program will never be completed without US approval as they are using US engine.
The F16 deal is joke TBH, they don't have 23 billion their economy is banged up badly
 

Johny_Baba

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The below article on Dassault Rafale’s order backlog challenge :
this is not new it was even apparent when we gave 36 G2G order that 114 future order for MRCA whatever would be a challenge giving to their production choking, and then we saw massive orders by UAE, Egypt and all in very short span of time further elevating it

perhaps that Nagpur factory whatever is just a way to reduce this choke by not only offering supplies for IAF (and IN probably) but other 'friendly' customers of the jet
 

Spitfire9

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The below article on Dassault Rafale’s order backlog challenge :
Rafale would be the obvious choice to me. Is it out of contention now due to the order backlog? Also, I recall that agreement for production in India could not be reached 10 years ago. Unless something has changed, why would agreement for production in India be reached if Rafale was selected?

I guess that Eurofighter could be pushed for a sizzling deal. UK assembly is finishing. UK has a couple of squadrons of early Typhoons soon to be retired. I suggest considering a government-to-government deal to cover

- transfer of retiring early RAF Typhoons to India for free (perhaps some from other partner countries as well)
- transfer of UK assembly line to India
- manufacture of parts and spares for Typhoon users to be transferred to India where India is cheaper

Where Eurofighter is concerned, it should be a buyer's market. I guess that India could get a really keen price for Typhoon. If spares from India are much cheaper than from Europe, the CPFH of Typhoon could be reduced for existing users.

Within 3 years IAF could have several squadrons of Typhoons in use.
 
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BON PLAN

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Rafale would be the obvious choice to me. Is it out of contention now due to the order backlog? Also, I recall that agreement for production in India could not be reached 10 years ago. Unless something has changed, why would agreement for production in India be reached if Rafale was selected?

I guess that Eurofighter could be pushed for a sizzling deal. UK assembly is finishing. UK has a couple of squadrons of early Typhoons soon to be retired. I suggest considering a government-to-government deal to cover

- transfer of retiring early RAF Typhoons to India for free (perhaps some from other partner countries as well)
- transfer of UK assembly line to India
- manufacture of parts and spares for Typhoon users to be transferred to India where India is cheaper

Where Eurofighter is concerned, it should be a buyer's market. I guess that India could get a really keen price for Typhoon. If spares from India are much cheaper than from Europe, the CPFH of Typhoon could be reduced for existing users.

Within 3 years IAF could have several squadrons of Typhoons in use.
No because :
India selected Rafale as the best during hard MMRCA trials.
Rafale is already on duty in IAF. Purchasing a new bird imply a logistic nightmare (one more for IAF...).
Rafale is cheaper.
Rafale is totally multirole and has longer range.
Rafale has a far stronger road map that EF (ex : Rafale AESA radar is more than 10 years ahead of the EF ones). The way is paved to F6 std.
Rafale production line will be on duty for the next 10 years at least when EF is near closure.
Rafale can't be blocked for exemple because Germany suddenly find the muslim human rights are not respected enough.
the main EF contributors (GB and D) purchased F35. They will not invest in EF futur. EF is already a yesterday bird. No more order for GB, 20 for Germany.... far too few to dynamise the export career.
No, it's impossible to have squads of EF in 3 years (except if GB give you the older one).

So definitively NO.
 

Spitfire9

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No because :
India selected Rafale as the best during hard MMRCA trials.
Rafale is already on duty in IAF. Purchasing a new bird imply a logistic nightmare (one more for IAF...).
Rafale is cheaper.
Rafale is totally multirole and has longer range.
Rafale has a far stronger road map that EF (ex : Rafale AESA radar is more than 10 years ahead of the EF ones). The way is paved to F6 std.
Rafale production line will be on duty for the next 10 years at least when EF is near closure.
Rafale can't be blocked for exemple because Germany suddenly find the muslim human rights are not respected enough.
the main EF contributors (GB and D) purchased F35. They will not invest in EF futur. EF is already a yesterday bird. No more order for GB, 20 for Germany.... far too few to dynamise the export career.
No, it's impossible to have squads of EF in 3 years (except if GB give you the older one).

So definitively NO.
'No, it's impossible to have squads of EF in 3 years (except if GB give you the older one).' That is what I meant. I think that Italy is also planning to retire its first tranche of Typhoons soon.

My idea is to get fighters into IAF service quickly and cheaply, set up assembly cheaply using UK assembly line kit and overall secure a much cheaper deal than for Rafale. Plus produce parts and spares for a large fleet of Typhoons worldwide.

If MRFA will not roll off an Indian assembly line until 2030 or later, why bother with MRFA at all? Remember, no type has yet been selected. If a type is selected 2025, price and assembly arrangements need to be agreed. Say 2026? Then assembly plant needs to be selected/built and fitted out. Say production/assembly starts 2027/2028? First complete aircraft rolls off the line 2030/2031? Remember also that IAF should receive 100+ Tejas Mk1A by 2031.

I guess that 114 Rafale with assembly line in India will cost at least $20 billion. Perhaps it would be better to just wait for Tejas Mk2 and apply the money saved to buying more Tejas Mk2 and more AMCA.
 

NutCracker

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Rafale would be the obvious choice to me. Is it out of contention now due to the order backlog? Also, I recall that agreement for production in India could not be reached 10 years ago. Unless something has changed, why would agreement for production in India be reached if Rafale was selected?

I guess that Eurofighter could be pushed for a sizzling deal. UK assembly is finishing. UK has a couple of squadrons of early Typhoons soon to be retired. I suggest considering a government-to-government deal to cover

- transfer of retiring early RAF Typhoons to India for free (perhaps some from other partner countries as well)
- transfer of UK assembly line to India
- manufacture of parts and spares for Typhoon users to be transferred to India where India is cheaper

Where Eurofighter is concerned, it should be a buyer's market. I guess that India could get a really keen price for Typhoon. If spares from India are much cheaper than from Europe, the CPFH of Typhoon could be reduced for existing users.

Within 3 years IAF could have several squadrons of Typhoons in use.
No because :
India selected Rafale as the best during hard MMRCA trials.
Rafale is already on duty in IAF. Purchasing a new bird imply a logistic nightmare (one more for IAF...).
Rafale is cheaper.
Rafale is totally multirole and has longer range.
Rafale has a far stronger road map that EF (ex : Rafale AESA radar is more than 10 years ahead of the EF ones). The way is paved to F6 std.
Rafale production line will be on duty for the next 10 years at least when EF is near closure.
Rafale can't be blocked for exemple because Germany suddenly find the muslim human rights are not respected enough.
the main EF contributors (GB and D) purchased F35. They will not invest in EF futur. EF is already a yesterday bird. No more order for GB, 20 for Germany.... far too few to dynamise the export career.
No, it's impossible to have squads of EF in 3 years (except if GB give you the older one).

So definitively NO.
Chill out Brozzers, it's a futile debate. Modi didn't get full majority this time. So MMRCA might go to back burner .
 

Spitfire9

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Chill out Brozzers, it's a futile debate. Modi didn't get full majority this time. So MMRCA might go to back burner .
Sounds like that would be the end of the MRCA saga to me. When did the story start - about 20 years ago?

Better switch Tejas Mk2 to fast forward!

I imagine that the IAF wants another 2 squadrons of Rafale, though. It is a s shame a follow on order was not placed once IAF decided it really liked Rafale.
 

BON PLAN

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'No, it's impossible to have squads of EF in 3 years (except if GB give you the older one).' That is what I meant. I think that Italy is also planning to retire its first tranche of Typhoons soon.
Now that you have the best Rafale of the world (so far) India will not induce a new fighter with limited capacity. Remember that RAF no more need it for that reason.
 

BON PLAN

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My idea is to get fighters into IAF service quickly and cheaply, set up assembly cheaply using UK assembly line kit and overall secure a much cheaper deal than for Rafale. Plus produce parts and spares for a large fleet of Typhoons worldwide.
Any new bird needs at least 36 month to be built. That means that the first one will be delivered in 36 months, the second may be one month after and so one. What is the assembly rate of EF to day? 1 or 2 a month, not more. So the first 18 jets squad will be delivered, at best, 45 months after the order.

As we all know that EF production rate is slowing, the long delay items (as undercarriage) are not on order. So 36 month is even a very optimistic delay.
 

BON PLAN

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I guess that 114 Rafale with assembly line in India will cost at least $20 billion. Perhaps it would be better to just wait for Tejas Mk2 and apply the money saved to buying more Tejas Mk2 and more AMCA.
114 Rafale built in India?
All depends how deep India need the know how transfert. If it is only an assembly line, DRAL is nearly ready.
If India need a 95% ToT, it is another history (in term of delay and price).

My position, for years, is that the final target for Rafale (except M variant) in India will be between 72 and 108, all purchased in GtoG.
 

aditya10r

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At least an order for 36 units, in GtoG.... As decided for the first batch as an emergency order.....
I think the apprehension to purchase rafale or for that any foreign jet is very something else. It's political capital. Last time we bought 36 of those for 8/9 billion USD and it raised a storm of shit. Purchase of any foreign tactical aircraft is going to be very very difficult going forward. Ideally i would prefer further order of 54-90 rafales just for the air force but that seems difficult. Also with so many backlogs for the FAF and other customers, i don't think even if the contract is signed before 2027(highly optimistic scenario) the French will be able to supply the aircrafts before 2030-32. That is a lot of time and would it make sense for us to purchase a 4.5 gen aircraft 8-9 years into the future when we will have our own local designs such mk2 MWF (not as capable) or the TEDBF(just as capable if not more) and luckily the prototype of AMCA will be flying by then too.

The window of opportunity to buy any large scale foreign jet has passed because of storm of shit, excessive costs and tight budgeting.
 

MirageBlue

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Rafale would be the obvious choice to me. Is it out of contention now due to the order backlog? Also, I recall that agreement for production in India could not be reached 10 years ago. Unless something has changed, why would agreement for production in India be reached if Rafale was selected?

I guess that Eurofighter could be pushed for a sizzling deal. UK assembly is finishing. UK has a couple of squadrons of early Typhoons soon to be retired. I suggest considering a government-to-government deal to cover

- transfer of retiring early RAF Typhoons to India for free (perhaps some from other partner countries as well)
- transfer of UK assembly line to India
- manufacture of parts and spares for Typhoon users to be transferred to India where India is cheaper

Where Eurofighter is concerned, it should be a buyer's market. I guess that India could get a really keen price for Typhoon. If spares from India are much cheaper than from Europe, the CPFH of Typhoon could be reduced for existing users.

Within 3 years IAF could have several squadrons of Typhoons in use.
The problem with going with any fighter other than Rafale for MRFA is multifold:

- Rafale fleet may well stay stuck at 36 with a few more bought for attrition. This is nowhere near the 72 unit size fleet for which infrastructure was already established by the IAF at 2 air bases and not at all ideal.
- Money invested in Rafale's India Specific Enhancements will be pretty much wasted, given how small the 36 number is compared to the original plan.
- It will introduce a new type into an already complex variety of fighter types. That means new training for pilots, technicians, new MRO, new engine repair facilities, different simulators, different tactics, different weapons (for e.g. the guns will be different, AASMs bought for Rafale will not be usable for the new type, etc.), different equipment (e.g. X-Guard towed decoy on Rafale versus whatever the other fighter may have or the HMDS)

The problems with Eurofighter remains:

- UK, Germany, Spain and Italy all have a say in the Eurofighter consortium. Too many partners, too much confusion, even if one of them takes the lead (Germany in this case if I'm not wrong) for the exports.
- Biggest threat of Germany turning woke and doing what it did to India in the last few years, which was to delay equipment that then led to programme delays. E.g. the Zorawar light tank's engine or the Arjun Mk1A tank engines which were all delayed thanks to MTU not getting Govt. sanctions on time. France is a much more stable and understanding strategic partner. Both Germany and UK have a tendency to preach morals and teach democracy to India. Especially Germany.
- Not as well rounded as the Rafale is in overall capabilities.
- I'll go with Peter Collin's evaluation of the Rafale which was glowing and rated it as the best 4.5 gen fighter he'd flown.
- Peter Collins' overall observation was that the Rafale "would eat" the Typhoon below 10,000 ft and will stay with the Typhoon between 10,000 to 20,000 ft. And he knew what he was talking about, having flown the Rafale and also the Typhoon simulator.

The advantages of going with Eurofighter are well enumerated in your post, but except for the Tranche 1 Typhoons possibly being offered for free (I've heard of no such offer in real though) all of what the Eurofighter consortium can offer will be offered by Dassault as well.

Without a doubt the Eurofighter consortium would be able to set up an assembly line in India, but Dassault is happy to set up an assembly line that it will control, in India. They just want an order for at least 100 units. Same would be true of the Eurofighter consortium.
 

Spitfire9

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India has put itself in the position of planning for more Rafales but failing to order them and suffering through that failure. Par for the course.

How soon could India get more Rafales built in France now that there is a very substantial backlog of orders?
 

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