MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

Samsung J7

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Look at Egypt deal

http://time.com/3710118/egypt-rafale-fighter-jet-france/

After twenty years of searching, France has finally found a buyer for its Rafale fighter jet. President Francois Hollande announced on Thursday that Egypt will buy 24 aircraft as part of a deal reportedly valued at 5.2 billion euros ($5.9 billion), and his Defense Minister is heading to Cairo on Monday to sign the agreement.


So if we order 115 rafales we hav to dole out minimum 27-30 billion USD .If we adjust for inflation, cost will increase further.

Definitely not viable.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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This has been discussed to death, the costs are justified.



Total nonsense.

- GTG deals cannot involve 'dealers' or middlemen, there's no scope for kickbacks as every single penny is accounted for and the respective ministries liase with one another, where's the corruption?
- CAG would be on GoI's back if this MMRCA deal HADN'T taken place as in that situation India would have ordered 36 gold plated Rafales with $55m USD worth of upgrades per plane. The ONLY way this investment is justifued and rationalised is with a larger follow on deal for >100 units.
If GTG was so great, why not do it again rather than issue fresh tender? Specially when we have sunk cost for 36 Rafales already?
 

captscooby81

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A butt hurt american magazine quoting about Egyptian Dictator who showed his ass to the american whites and favoured Russian and french tie ups ..Yes all their purchases will be useless unless it comes from the American manufacturers ..What is the use of 200 + F16 when US don t sell crucial spare parts and why did even after having so many F16 which also used by IDAF in the region Egypt went for Rafale ....?

Plus the joke is the author trying to remind again and again that after 20 years ..Where as Rafale Got inducted into French Airforce its parent country in 2005-06 and 2013 it signed deal for Egypt which is technically not more than 8-9 years but then who cares if the american says they will consider it from the time of its first flight till the foreign order comes then its the truth ..

Look at Egypt deal

http://time.com/3710118/egypt-rafale-fighter-jet-france/

After twenty years of searching, France has finally found a buyer for its Rafale fighter jet. President Francois Hollande announced on Thursday that Egypt will buy 24 aircraft as part of a deal reportedly valued at 5.2 billion euros ($5.9 billion), and his Defense Minister is heading to Cairo on Monday to sign the agreement.


So if we order 115 rafales we hav to dole out minimum 27-30 billion USD .If we adjust for inflation, cost will increase further.

Definitely not viable.
 

Samsung J7

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A butt hurt american magazine quoting about Egyptian Dictator who showed his ass to the american whites and favoured Russian and french tie ups ..Yes all their purchases will be useless unless it comes from the American manufacturers ..What is the use of 200 + F16 when US don t sell crucial spare parts and why did even after having so many F16 which also used by IDAF in the region Egypt went for Rafale ....?

Plus the joke is the author trying to remind again and again that after 20 years ..Where as Rafale Got inducted into French Airforce its parent country in 2005-06 and 2013 it signed deal for Egypt which is technically not more than 8-9 years but then who cares if the american says they will consider it from the time of its first flight till the foreign order comes then its the truth ..
Look at the cost of 24 Egyptian rafales. Its 5.9 billion USD. Good luck with procuring 115 rafales for 15 billion USD that too with 80% local manufacturing :bs:
 

Pandeyji

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Conspiracy Theory is

India secretly supports Tejas project but if it out-out says that it is not open to foreign anymore then it will cause scrutiny on many of 'social issues' & sanctions.

So it plays up this drama as issuing proposals & documents keeps both Babus & Goras happy while it builds up its Defense Industrial base.

Fact is Half the Social Problems of India re Caused by Goras directly and half by economic impoverishment which is again Gora Saabs.

So in end We rise out of Ashes & they go back to Grave.
As nice as it sounds there is a much more sensible answer. The govt is going for more Rafales & LM, Saab & Boeing are being "Begani Shadi mein Abdullah Deewana"
Loooooool what nonsense! Let's just ignore that this tender is not meant to provide fighters for the Rafale bases. Or that it includes licence production rights, which would be added to Rafales too. Let's forget that Rafale is one of the costliest fighters currently on the market per unit or per hour and that the SPM policy has a high priority on costs. Let's ignore IAF chief Dhanoas statements, that they give priority to fighters that can be procured in numbers and at lower operational costs...
Yes more Rafales is what is ridiculous. What is sensible is getting F16 or Gripen. BTW wasn't I proved right (& you wrong) when SEF was cancelled?
You might like to believe that but according to IAF officials that were present at the Elysee the deal was struck for 72 for IAF and 57 for the IN to give Dassault it's original numbers It was just too much to do all at once with the funding constraints and had to be stretched out over time and two services. India has enough base infrastructure for 72 Rafale, leaving it at 36 is unfinished business.
Exactly. I have tried explaining this many times. Just ignore the defence ""media"" they're peddlers of BS. They would ignore any report if it doesn't support their agenda.
 

Immanuel

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More Rafales in a G2G won't come before elections are over in 2019 and Modi wins (a longer shot everyday), while we are certainly a bit happier with Modi Gov's dealing with LOC violations, quick orders to make up shortages etc. The common man won't forget the severe pains of demoniotization.The defence budget is also laughable.

That said, it would have been better for them to pursue the G2G road for more Rafales for IAF, heck I for one support IAF buying upto a 100 Rafale (i.e 1 SQD for each of the 5 air commands) and get it over with. As for IN, they can't force the Rafale without full scale trials from INS Vikky or IAC-1, expect SH Block 3 to throw in a good fight. Most, if not all it's sensors will be updated, could even bring the new EPE engine, LPDs.

Secondly seems like we were going down the TOT road, France will charge you a hefty penny for such things and will make things more difficult when time come to implement.

As for this tender and it's linking up to AMCA, the Rafale here faces stiff competition. The Safranized Kaveri first has to prove itself on the LCA MK-1/1A before it goes anywhere near the AMCA. Secondly, a new version of over 110KN power would be needed (such adventures are not in Rafale's road maps), AMCA needs GAN based sensors (AESA/EW), needs TVC (Safran or Dassault haven't developed one yet), Large Panel cockpits (same issue for the Rafale). Expect retrials with SH Block 3, Newest variants of EF, Gripen NG, Rafale and who knows may be even F-35.

At the moment GE is best in place to power the AMCA with uprated versions of the F414. The same engine will also power the LCA MK-2 and surely the MK-1A during MLU.

So while I do support the purchase of 64 more on top of 36 Rafales G2G for IAF, I don't think it's a given that Rafale will take this new deal home, it is also not a given that Rafale will serve in the IN.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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More Rafales in a G2G won't come before elections are over in 2019 and Modi wins (a longer shot everyday), while we are certainly a bit happier with Modi Gov's dealing with LOC violations, quick orders to make up shortages etc. The common man won't forget the severe pains of demoniotization.The defence budget is also laughable.

That said, it would have been better for them to pursue the G2G road for more Rafales for IAF, heck I for one support IAF buying upto a 100 Rafale (i.e 1 SQD for each of the 5 air commands) and get it over with. As for IN, they can't force the Rafale without full scale trials from INS Vikky or IAC-1, expect SH Block 3 to throw in a good fight. Most, if not all it's sensors will be updated, could even bring the new EPE engine, LPDs.

Secondly seems like we were going down the TOT road, France will charge you a hefty penny for such things and will make things more difficult when time come to implement.

As for this tender and it's linking up to AMCA, the Rafale here faces stiff competition. The Safranized Kaveri first has to prove itself on the LCA MK-1/1A before it goes anywhere near the AMCA. Secondly, a new version of over 110KN power would be needed (such adventures are not in Rafale's road maps), AMCA needs GAN based sensors (AESA/EW), needs TVC (Safran or Dassault haven't developed one yet), Large Panel cockpits (same issue for the Rafale). Expect retrials with SH Block 3, Newest variants of EF, Gripen NG, Rafale and who knows may be even F-35.

At the moment GE is best in place to power the AMCA with uprated versions of the F414. The same engine will also power the LCA MK-2 and surely the MK-1A during MLU.

So while I do support the purchase of 64 more on top of 36 Rafales G2G for IAF, I don't think it's a given that Rafale will take this new deal home, it is also not a given that Rafale will serve in the IN.
- If Rafale makes the cut, good for supply chain management. Otherwise we will be stuck with 9bn USD worth of trash up-gradation (36 planes without full platform are useless) which in next decades will cost more.

- No country will pass on crucial tech like engine so easily. We need to put the money where mouth is.

Think 10-15 yrs ahead and build our own engines. Fly MKs with whatever substandard stuff we can put into it for now. In the mean time buy enough Rafales, in whichever deal possible to plug the gap for next decade. There is no easy way around it. Throwing enough money on a project under good administrator will always deliver.
 

Prashant12

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NEW DELHI - The Indian air force has launched a very ambitious $19.5 billion program to buy 110 military fighters.

The problem is, the country’s Ministry of Defense says it is only a fact-finding exercise and there is no commitment from the government on the program as of now.

The IAF on April 6 issued a Request for Information or RFI to all major global aviation companies to bid on the 110 fighter buy.

Without mentioning the requirement of single or twin engine fighters, the service is seeking 82 single-seat and 28 twin-seat fighters. The RFI says that, “under the program, 16 aircraft will bring in fly away condition. The selected overseas original equipment manufacturers ... will be asked to set up production line with Indian production agency under strategic partner’s policy”.

“This RFI only outlines the fighter’s requirements for the service but there is no firm commitment from the government and it is not a firm procurement proposal,” one MoD official told Defense News.

Global fighter manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Dassault Aviation of France, European consortium Eurofighter, Saab of Sweden and United Aircraft Corporation of Russia are expected to submit response in three months.
"There isn't now even the slightest IAF interest in the F-16 Block 70 or any other variant" for the single-engine fighter program, even as the Air Force has decided to hold flight tests of Lockheed's aircraft and Sweden's Gripen-E, the two under consideration.

“So far, this entire process of selection of fighters has been very haphazard and lacking any systematic plan of the service,” an MoD official noted.

Former MoD financial advisor Amit Cowshish added the the “RFI is meant only to obtain all manner of information from the prospective suppliers so as to make out a firm procurement proposal based on the feedback. It entails no commitment from the ministry’s side even to issue the tender, much less sign a contract.”

“The IAF has issued an RFI for 110 fighters without mentioning the requirement of single engine/twin engine mainly to widen competition amongst various fighter manufacturers,” a defense official said. “The main emphasis of this RFI is on transfer of technology and performance based logistics.”

“The ToT requirement is very exhaustive and also includes ToT of avionics, electronic warfare systems including missile approach warner, active electronically scanned array radar, engine and also for setting up the manufacturing unit in India,” retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst Daljit Singh said. “It is indeed a tall order for the OEM to provide so much of ToT.”

“The extent of ToT sought through the new RFI is completely unrealistic,” said Vijainder K Thakur, a retired IAF squadron leader and defense analyst. “The OEM will demand a lot of money for the ToT pushing up unit costs to unrealistic levels, limiting our ability to buy more.”

Singh noted that the Indian defense industry has a long way to go before it can start building its own planes. The service wants new fighters to have multiple mission capabilities, including air-to-air combat, striking ground targets, reconnaissance, electronic warfare and air-to-air refuelling — not to mention all weather capabilities.

In mid-2007, the IAF also launched a similar $12 billion medium, multi-role combat aircraft, or MMRCA, program that was scrapped 10 years later without citing any reason.

“This RFI is a repeat of the previous MMRCA program and it can only be done though the joint venture approach as a lot of hand holding would be needed by foreign OEM,” an industry source said. “However, it is also important for MoD to give private sector a thrust in terms of awarding programs.”

“This RFI seems to be [looking for] a real-time super technology demonstrator rather than proven operational fighter,” an industry insider added. “It will be impossible for any foreign OEM to meet all tasks and this program has no merit unless IAF comes out with a well-defined tender for fighters in future.“

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...tarted-a-195-billion-fighter-program-sort-of/
 

Immanuel

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While I can see IAF wanting a whole lot of TOT, PBL commitments etc. we do have to aim high so we do end up getting some TOT at a fair price. TOT & Overall availability of the aircraft depends entirely on cost & willingess. The higher the peace time availabiltiy specially over 85-90% is a very costly affair doesn't matter which aircraft you pick.
 

Samsung J7

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While I can see IAF wanting a whole lot of TOT, PBL commitments etc. we do have to aim high so we do end up getting some TOT at a fair price. TOT & Overall availability of the aircraft depends entirely on cost & willingess. The higher the peace time availabiltiy specially over 85-90% is a very costly affair doesn't matter which aircraft you pick.
Even French airforce Rafales availability rate is 48% at any given time. Same with eurofighter. Only USAF F16s hav 70% availability.
 

Samsung J7

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That's asking French to help us make AMCA then only we will be Rafales. Good move.
I dont think France has any aircraft with internal weapon bay. How can French will give ToT for Internal bay when French themselves dont hav it
 

F-14B

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That's asking French to help us make AMCA then only we will be Rafales. Good move.
it seems abate for the Americans two tests how much they are willing to give us as part of their newfangled strategic partnership
 

Rahul Singh

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I dont think France has any aircraft with internal weapon bay. How can French will give ToT for Internal bay when French themselves dont hav it
Maybe their experience with nEURON is something we will be provided with.



NEURON_DassaultAviation.jpg

it seems abate for the Americans two tests how much they are willing to give us as part of their newfangled strategic partnership
In my opinion entire, MRCA 2 has been fabricated as a bargaining tool.
 
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abingdonboy

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Anyone got an accurate picture for the price of the

F-18 ASH
F-16 IN Block 70/72
MiG-35 MKI
Eurofigter T3
Gripen E

The costs I have found for Eurofighter and F-16 seem insanely high and for F-18 ASH seem unrealsitically low.

@Sancho
 

binayak95

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Even French airforce Rafales availability rate is 48% at any given time. Same with eurofighter. Only USAF F16s hav 70% availability.
DO you just google stuff and vomit it out here or do you actually bother digging into the stuff you're claiming?

How about the fact that Rafale Ms have an availability rate exceeding 90% throughout the Libyan campaign? And that the 48% rate you're claiming is actually because a few squadrons were mothballed?

this is not the first time, you've been making some BS claims. Read up some more, learn to differentiate propaganda and facts, then speak.
 

Rahul Singh

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Anyone got an accurate picture for the price of the

F-18 ASH
F-16 IN Block 70/72
MiG-35 MKI
Eurofigter T3
Gripen E

The costs I have found for Eurofighter and F-16 seem insanely high and for F-18 ASH seem unrealsitically low.

@Sancho
Given the variables, it is extremely hard to get a base price of these fighter jets. Their official websites give absolutely no clue not even ROSOBORONEXPORT. The second method is diving total program cost by total numbers produced. However, audit reports that I found for program costs are very old and numbers produced keep changing so using that figure will be inaccurate.

The better method as per me will be using the quotation from latest tender filed or won. Sill, it won't be entirely accurate. For example, the total cost of Gripe NG for Brazil is 4.68 billion for 36 Gripen NG. This gives a per unit cost of ~130 million for each example. But there are two issues in it wrt to MRCA 2. SAAB has offered IAF Gripen E which is longer than Gripen NG being sold to Brazil which is based on Gripen D. Also we may never know the cost of packages coming along with Gripen NG to Brazil. Same is true for Rafale and F/A-18E/F.

If you still want then I can prepare rough estimates using figures of Brazillian F-X2. For Rafale, Egyptian figure can also be used for taking an average.
 

Samsung J7

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DO you just google stuff and vomit it out here or do you actually bother digging into the stuff you're claiming?

How about the fact that Rafale Ms have an availability rate exceeding 90% throughout the Libyan campaign? And that the 48% rate you're claiming is actually because a few squadrons were mothballed?

this is not the first time, you've been making some BS claims. Read up some more, learn to differentiate propaganda and facts, then speak.
Dont shit here without evidence . Availability rate is peace time availability rate. Claiming rafale has 90% availability rate in Libyan campaign is absurd. For air campaign they used limited no of rafale jets

Here is the original report from refuted air magazine. Before shitting here , increase your knowledge.

https://www.journal-aviation.com/en...r-force-fixed-wing-aircraft-from-2014-to-2016

We can demand 90% availability rate for rafales from French. Only thing is they will charge our arms and legs
 

binayak95

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Dont shit here without evidence . Availability rate is peace time availability rate. Claiming rafale has 90% availability rate in Libyan campaign is absurd. For air campaign they used limited no of rafale jets

Here is the original report from refuted air magazine. Before shitting here , increase your knowledge.

https://www.journal-aviation.com/en...r-force-fixed-wing-aircraft-from-2014-to-2016

We can demand 90% availability rate for rafales from French. Only thing is they will charge our arms and legs
Have you even read any of the post Libyan campaign briefs that came out in 2012-13 that dissected the tactics and platforms used? Do you even have access to those articles.. I wouldn't know.

Most of the briefs I read were back at the INA, so, no, I can't provide any links: did find one though:
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR600/RR676/RAND_RR676.pdf.

Do give it a thorough read : and note that of the Rafales deployed throughout the campaign, and in Afghanistan, wartime combat availability has never dipped below 80%. The French Air Force's tabled report that you provide a link to also includes mothballed squadrons!

And yeah, your language shows your outlook.
 

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