MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[WolfPack86]

F-15EX offer to India brings Pratt & Whitney engines to focus in India
Boeing will be offering its second candidate F-15 EX to the air force for its requirement of 114 fighters that are to be produced domestically, bringing American aircraft tally to 3 after F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-21 ( a variant of the F-16) that are already on offer. Both the F/A 18 and the F-21 on offer to India are powered by engines manufactured by the US engine-maker General Electric (GE) but the entry of F-15 EX brings to the table engine offerings from its arch-rival Pratt & Whitney for the first time in a market dominated by General Electric (GE). 40 Tejas MK1 and 83 Tejas Mk1A will be powered by F404-IN20 after-burning turbofan engine and India’s upcoming Tejas MK2 will also be powered by F414-INS6 turbofan engines which have made General Electric (GE) undisputed market leader in India, as India works on development of more locally developed fighter jets to meet its demand. General Electric (GE) is likely to corner engine orders and spare parts orders worth billions in coming years from India as each aircraft requires nearly 3.5 engines over its air frame life. India and the United States for long-discussed to jointly develop a jet engine based on the General Electric’s F414 Enhanced Engine for India’s upcoming 5th generation fighter jet AMCA but failed to setup any joint venture yet. General Electric (GE) had agreed to set up local assembly of its engines with HAL for its F414-INS6 turbofan engines when it won an order for 99 engines a few years back. General Electric (GE) also has agreed to set up a company-owned subsidiary in India if India agrees to buy one of the American jets (F-21 and F-18) in its MMRCA Tender. General Electric (GE) is also willing to manufacture locally 110kn Thrust class engine for India’s AMCA program while maintaining full controls over its core technology and Intellectual Property Rights (IPRs) due to which talks between India and the United States to jointly develop a jet engine for AMCA program failed due to India’s instance of having Indian control over the local company and access and transfer to the core technology. Pratt & Whitney has been out of Indian market and allowed General Electric (GE) to dominate the Indian market due to India’s preference of its engines which begin in the late ’80s when it was selected to power India’s LCA-Tejas program. F-15 EX on offer to India for the first time brings Pratt & Whitney developed F100-PW-229 engines to India. While General Electric (GE) dominates world over the sale of its military engines in American made jets like F-16, F-18, it also found in Gripen, T-50, and LCA-Tejas but Pratt & Whitney was limited to supply and maintenance of spares for 50 F117 engines for the 11 C-17 Globemaster III transporter in service with IAF. But Pratt & Whitney has some advantage that General Electric (GE) doesn’t have is that both its F119-PW-100 turbofan and F135 engine are the only engines that are powering America’s 5th generation fighter jets F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. There have been no official records that India and Pratt & Whitney at any point of time had engaged with each other for the possible development of engine jointly, but an idrw.org report had hinted that US Government officials might allow other aero-engine makers to engage with India other than General Electric (GE) due to prolonged stalling which ultimately lead to the dismantling of the joint study group which was engaged in talks for joint development of the engine for the AMCA program. Pratt & Whitney has the technology and manpower caliber to develop an engine to cater to meet the demands of the AMCA program. F100-PW-229 engine on offer to India with F-15 EX is not only reliable but more than 7,000 F100 engines have been produced and powers 99% of all USAF F-15 aircraft and 62% of the world’s inventory of F-16 fighters. F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) launched in 2004has raised the engine depot inspection interval from 4,300 to 6,000 which can produce 129.7 kN of thrust with afterburner. A detuned F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine or a new engine based on the core technology of the same could be good enough to power AMCA Mk2 which India plans to put in production from 2035 onwards only if Pratt & Whitney is willing to go extra miles then General Electric (GE) in terms of sharing of the core technology.
https://idrw.org/f-15ex-offer-to-india-brings-pratt-whitney-engines-to-focus-in-india/#more-224960

 

[Hydra3]

F-15EX offer to India brings Pratt & Whitney engines to focus in India
Boeing will be offering its second candidate F-15 EX to the air force for its requirement of 114 fighters that are to be produced domestically, bringing American aircraft tally to 3 after F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-21 ( a variant of the F-16) that are already on offer. Both the F/A 18 and the F-21 on offer to India are powered by engines manufactured by the US engine-maker General Electric (GE) but the entry of F-15 EX brings to the table engine offerings from its arch-rival Pratt & Whitney for the first time in a market dominated by General Electric (GE). 40 Tejas MK1 and 83 Tejas Mk1A will be powered by F404-IN20 after-burning turbofan engine and India’s upcoming Tejas MK2 will also be powered by F414-INS6 turbofan engines which have made General Electric (GE) undisputed market leader in India, as India works on development of more locally developed fighter jets to meet its demand. General Electric (GE) is likely to corner engine orders and spare parts orders worth billions in coming years from India as each aircraft requires nearly 3.5 engines over its air frame life. India and the United States for long-discussed to jointly develop a jet engine based on the General Electric’s F414 Enhanced Engine for India’s upcoming 5th generation fighter jet AMCA but failed to setup any joint venture yet. General Electric (GE) had agreed to set up local assembly of its engines with HAL for its F414-INS6 turbofan engines when it won an order for 99 engines a few years back. General Electric (GE) also has agreed to set up a company-owned subsidiary in India if India agrees to buy one of the American jets (F-21 and F-18) in its MMRCA Tender. General Electric (GE) is also willing to manufacture locally 110kn Thrust class engine for India’s AMCA program while maintaining full controls over its core technology and Intellectual Property Rights (IPRs) due to which talks between India and the United States to jointly develop a jet engine for AMCA program failed due to India’s instance of having Indian control over the local company and access and transfer to the core technology. Pratt & Whitney has been out of Indian market and allowed General Electric (GE) to dominate the Indian market due to India’s preference of its engines which begin in the late ’80s when it was selected to power India’s LCA-Tejas program. F-15 EX on offer to India for the first time brings Pratt & Whitney developed F100-PW-229 engines to India. While General Electric (GE) dominates world over the sale of its military engines in American made jets like F-16, F-18, it also found in Gripen, T-50, and LCA-Tejas but Pratt & Whitney was limited to supply and maintenance of spares for 50 F117 engines for the 11 C-17 Globemaster III transporter in service with IAF. But Pratt & Whitney has some advantage that General Electric (GE) doesn’t have is that both its F119-PW-100 turbofan and F135 engine are the only engines that are powering America’s 5th generation fighter jets F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. There have been no official records that India and Pratt & Whitney at any point of time had engaged with each other for the possible development of engine jointly, but an idrw.org report had hinted that US Government officials might allow other aero-engine makers to engage with India other than General Electric (GE) due to prolonged stalling which ultimately lead to the dismantling of the joint study group which was engaged in talks for joint development of the engine for the AMCA program. Pratt & Whitney has the technology and manpower caliber to develop an engine to cater to meet the demands of the AMCA program. F100-PW-229 engine on offer to India with F-15 EX is not only reliable but more than 7,000 F100 engines have been produced and powers 99% of all USAF F-15 aircraft and 62% of the world’s inventory of F-16 fighters. F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) launched in 2004has raised the engine depot inspection interval from 4,300 to 6,000 which can produce 129.7 kN of thrust with afterburner. A detuned F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine or a new engine based on the core technology of the same could be good enough to power AMCA Mk2 which India plans to put in production from 2035 onwards only if Pratt & Whitney is willing to go extra miles then General Electric (GE) in terms of sharing of the core technology.
https://idrw.org/f-15ex-offer-to-india-brings-pratt-whitney-engines-to-focus-in-india/#more-224960

There is no doubt that amca poered with twin f15 engine will have better performances, bu question is Will AMCA be able to accommodate the PWF100-229 engines? The primarily design of the aircraft is based on f414 type engine?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Can India afford the Purchase of MMRCA post Pandemic?

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) on Tuesday slashed its FY21 growth projection for India to 1.9%, India along with China were only economies which were in Green and were not in Red with negative growth, IMF report projected that India’s growth will be back to near 7% for 2022 after Pandemic is over but that still puts a big question mark if India will be in a position to acquire new big-ticket items like 114 fighter jets under its MMRCA program worth $30 Billion. India still needs to make payments to many big tickets weapons purchase it has made in recent years as seen in most of the cases, payments are made in blocks over the years so, in 2020 and 2021, India will be making purchase payments to previous orders when economic disruption has projected poor economic activity for next few months or even years. Purchase of existing fighter jets will remove the need for procurement of 114 fighter jets on the same type, India can split orders of the same type to reduce the need for another type of aircraft which will put economic pressure on the country. Placing additional orders for 40 Tejas Mk1A and 36 Dassault Rafale will cost India around $10 Billion. Additional orders for 12 Su-30MKI along with 21 Mig-29UPG we have 100 new fighter jets at disposal for less than $15 Billion. IAF also needs to fast track HAL’s Wing-man concept so that low-cost swing-role unmanned drone aircraft can be developed to work with fighter aircraft in tandem in highly contested airspace.

 

[ashdoc]

MMRCA : India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

MMRCA canceled?

 

[abhay rajput]

MMRCA : India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

MMRCA canceled?

Not really . Due to funds crunch we might not go for rafale . Maybe mig35 or additional Tejas.

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says
New Delhi: India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft in the world’s biggest warplane contract.


The country’s air force is finalizing plans to induct indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas to boost the capability of its aging combat aircraft fleet, Chief of Defence Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview in New Delhi. It will buy an additional 83 jets, apart from an earlier deal for 40 aircraft, for $6 billion, he said.


“The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Rawat said, when asked about the global tender for jets. “The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.”



The decision is a set back for the likes of Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Saab AB who were in the race for the $15 billion order and another sign that India is abandoning costly foreign defense purchases which have been plagued by bureaucratic delays and a funding crunch. Prime Minister Narendra Modi this week stressed the need to buy locally made products to boost an economy battered by the Covid-19 outbreak.


“Since it has been decided to go the indigenous route, the Ministry of Defence must ensure ramping up” capacity at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., the builder of the jet, said Manmohan Bahadur, additional director general at the New Delhi-based Centre for Airpower Studies. “The IAF, like the other services, has to maintain the required edge over our adversaries — emotions have to be eschewed.”

The induction of jets will help India emerge as a key defense exporter due to its “relatively low price,” Rawat said in his office in New Delhi. Several countries may be interested in purchasing the aircraft once they see them in operation with the airforce.



The process to buy fighter jets started more than a decade ago. India scrapped a long-awaited order with Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafales worth $11 billion in 2015, but has since bought 36 of the planes to speed replacement of older aircraft.


In April 2018, India floated a global tender seeking responses from global manufacturers to purchase 114 jets. The deal attracted initial offers from global giants like Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Sweden’s Saab AB and the Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30Mki and Su-35. At least 85% of production was to be in India, according to the initial document.



While New Delhi is the world’s third-biggest military spender, its air force, navy and the army are still equipped with weapons that are largely obsolete.

Local Production

The move to indigenous fighters marks a shift to start using locally made weaponry, Rawat said. The defense forces will be using a lot more domestically produced goods, and there is an understanding there may be some quality issues in the beginning, but these will be improved, he said.


“The artillery guns, air defense systems and radars will all be indigenous systems as well. We are doing well with artillery guns and in air defense systems,” he added. “We are also looking at ammunition manufacturing in our country in a very big way.”


Modi had made clear his intention of reducing India’s dependence on foreign made weapons platforms soon after taking over as leader in 2014 but the progress hasn’t been remarkable.


India desperately needs new aircraft to replace aging Soviet-era jets. It needs about 42 squadrons of fighters to defend its western and northern borders simultaneously but is making do with about 31 squadrons only. By 2022, it is likely to add on two more squadrons of the Rafale fighter.


While the IAF is backing the indigenous fighter program, there are several glitches, including faster delivery schedules and quality issues that still need to be ironed out. As per plans, the 123 Tejas fighters are to be followed by the Mark-II variant which are medium weight fighters. The test flight for the next generation Tejas aircraft is likely in 2022.



U.S., China and India were the world’s three biggest military spenders in 2019, followed by Russia and Saudi Arabia. The two Asian countries made it to the top three for the first time according to a recent report of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. For the fiscal 2020-21 India has earmarked $ 66.9 billion for defense but budget cuts are imminent because of CoVID-19 pandemic. – Bloomberg

IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says

The induction of Tejas will help India emerge as a key defence exporter due to its ‘relatively low price’, Rawat says.

theprint.in

 

[itsme]

Lmao, what a joke. 83 more light fighters are not comparable to high end MMRCAs

 

[Tactical Frog]

What would be a plausible timeline for MMRCA 2.0 ?
2020 RFP issued
2022 Two companies shortlisted
2023 Bids opened, winner declared
2025 Negotiations successful, contract signature
2027 First off-the-shelf MMRCA 2.0 jets arrive
2028 First jets roll out Indian factory
2032 All 114 jets delivered

My timeline is optimistic

EDIT :

Actually Dassault may be in position to roll out jets faster out of its Nagpur facility. Say 2027 instead of 2028 in the timeline.

 

[IndianHawk]

What would be a plausible timeline for MMRCA 2.0 ?
2020 RFP issued
2022 Two companies shortlisted
2023 Bids opened, winner declared
2025 Negotiations successful, contract signature
2027 First off-the-shelf MMRCA 2.0 jets arrive
2028 First jets roll out Indian factory
2032 All 114 jets delivered

My timeline is optimistic

There is no money for imports now. Defense budget will see cuts. Mmrca is now akin to french second aircraft carrier. All talk no money.

 

[Tactical Frog]

There is no money for imports now. Defense budget will see cuts. Mmrca is now akin to french second aircraft carrier. All talk no money.

Yeah, I follow the news ...
Let’s say that in my optimistic timeline Indian economy thrives and Wuhan virus is just a bad memory .
Honestly I am not thrilled by the idea of a new MMRCA. Just trying to envision all kind of scenarios.

 

[IndianHawk]

Yeah, I follow the news ...
Let’s say that in my optimistic timeline Indian economy thrives and Wuhan virus is just a bad memory .
Honestly I am not thrilled by the idea of a new MMRCA. Just trying to envision all kind of scenarios.

Damage is done already. Even if India avoids recession it has still lost a years gdp growth.
Recovery of govt finances might take 2-3 years at the very least. By then mwf will be flying .

36 more rafales may still be ordered later but I don't see any more imported jets now.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

What would be a plausible timeline for MMRCA 2.0 ?
2020 RFP issued
2022 Two companies shortlisted
2023 Bids opened, winner declared
2025 Negotiations successful, contract signature
2027 First off-the-shelf MMRCA 2.0 jets arrive
2028 First jets roll out Indian factory
2032 All 114 jets delivered

My timeline is optimistic

EDIT :

Actually Dassault may be in position to roll out jets faster out of its Nagpur facility. Say 2027 instead of 2028 in the timeline.

Get 36 more rafale and close this whole MMRCA drama tho that will have negative effects on TOT and make in india part of MMRCA.
But it's more economical.
And get more tejas to fill short gaps .

 

[vampyrbladez]

Damage is done already. Even if India avoids recession it has still lost a years gdp growth.
Recovery of govt finances might take 2-3 years at the very least. By then mwf will be flying .

36 more rafales may still be ordered later but I don't see any more imported jets now.

https://theprint.in/defence/india-w...gered-manner-says-cds-gen-bipin-rawat/366798/

 

[Kchontha]

There is lot of factors that goes against the mmrca 2.0 such as budgetary constraints, the problem of offset management, ordering of 36 addional rafales, the progress in the development of MWFs and tedbf/orca etc.

 

[janme]

IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says
New Delhi: India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft in the world’s biggest warplane contract.


The country’s air force is finalizing plans to induct indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas to boost the capability of its aging combat aircraft fleet, Chief of Defence Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview in New Delhi. It will buy an additional 83 jets, apart from an earlier deal for 40 aircraft, for $6 billion, he said.


“The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Rawat said, when asked about the global tender for jets. “The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.”



The decision is a set back for the likes of Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Saab AB who were in the race for the $15 billion order and another sign that India is abandoning costly foreign defense purchases which have been plagued by bureaucratic delays and a funding crunch. Prime Minister Narendra Modi this week stressed the need to buy locally made products to boost an economy battered by the Covid-19 outbreak.


“Since it has been decided to go the indigenous route, the Ministry of Defence must ensure ramping up” capacity at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., the builder of the jet, said Manmohan Bahadur, additional director general at the New Delhi-based Centre for Airpower Studies. “The IAF, like the other services, has to maintain the required edge over our adversaries — emotions have to be eschewed.”

The induction of jets will help India emerge as a key defense exporter due to its “relatively low price,” Rawat said in his office in New Delhi. Several countries may be interested in purchasing the aircraft once they see them in operation with the airforce.



The process to buy fighter jets started more than a decade ago. India scrapped a long-awaited order with Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafales worth $11 billion in 2015, but has since bought 36 of the planes to speed replacement of older aircraft.


In April 2018, India floated a global tender seeking responses from global manufacturers to purchase 114 jets. The deal attracted initial offers from global giants like Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Sweden’s Saab AB and the Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30Mki and Su-35. At least 85% of production was to be in India, according to the initial document.



While New Delhi is the world’s third-biggest military spender, its air force, navy and the army are still equipped with weapons that are largely obsolete.

Local Production

The move to indigenous fighters marks a shift to start using locally made weaponry, Rawat said. The defense forces will be using a lot more domestically produced goods, and there is an understanding there may be some quality issues in the beginning, but these will be improved, he said.


“The artillery guns, air defense systems and radars will all be indigenous systems as well. We are doing well with artillery guns and in air defense systems,” he added. “We are also looking at ammunition manufacturing in our country in a very big way.”


Modi had made clear his intention of reducing India’s dependence on foreign made weapons platforms soon after taking over as leader in 2014 but the progress hasn’t been remarkable.


India desperately needs new aircraft to replace aging Soviet-era jets. It needs about 42 squadrons of fighters to defend its western and northern borders simultaneously but is making do with about 31 squadrons only. By 2022, it is likely to add on two more squadrons of the Rafale fighter.


While the IAF is backing the indigenous fighter program, there are several glitches, including faster delivery schedules and quality issues that still need to be ironed out. As per plans, the 123 Tejas fighters are to be followed by the Mark-II variant which are medium weight fighters. The test flight for the next generation Tejas aircraft is likely in 2022.



U.S., China and India were the world’s three biggest military spenders in 2019, followed by Russia and Saudi Arabia. The two Asian countries made it to the top three for the first time according to a recent report of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. For the fiscal 2020-21 India has earmarked $ 66.9 billion for defense but budget cuts are imminent because of CoVID-19 pandemic. – Bloomberg

IAF to buy 83 more Tejas fighters from HAL instead of foreign jets, CDS Rawat says

The induction of Tejas will help India emerge as a key defence exporter due to its ‘relatively low price’, Rawat says.

theprint.in

Please read the article carefully, they are counting same previous 83 as more.

 

[Kchontha]

Please read the article carefully, they are counting same previous 83 as more.

40 ioc and foc standard Tejas plus 83 mk1a make 123 tejas.

 

[janme]

40 ioc and foc standard Tejas plus 83 mk1a make 123 tejas.

Which was already confirmed, nothing to do with MMRCA 2. This is nothing but substandard reporting from print, what is even more worrying is that people on a DEFENCE forum are just lapping it up without even reading it.

 

[aditya10r]

My timeline is optimistic

Wet dream.

 

[Kchontha]

Which was already confirmed, nothing to do with MMRCA 2. This is nothing but substandard reporting from print, what is even more worrying is that people on a DEFENCE forum are just lapping it up without even reading it.

Do you have any concrete evidence to support your claim? Tell me. I'll be one of the happiest to hear it. Otherwise you have to lick it up.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Rawat’s statement on LCA over foreign fighter creates confusion





Published May 15, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG Chief of Defence Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview in New Delhi. that IAF will buy additional 83 jets, apart from an earlier deal for 40 aircraft, for $6 billion and also said that “The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.” when asked about the global tender for jets under which IAF had plans to buy 114 jets from Global vendors like Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp, JSC Rosoboronexport , Dassault, Eurofighter Consortium and Saab AB who have send their proposals for their fighter jets. Procurement of 114 jets from a foreign vendor was over 83 LCA-Tejas Mk1A jets which IAF had finalized with state-owned HAL and was due to be inked by now but was delayed due to CoVID-19 situation in the country. Amid recent calls by Prime Minister Narendra Modi who stressed the need to buy locally made products to boost an economy battered by the Covid-19 outbreak,it was expected that IAF might drop plans to buy from a foreign vendor. Defense Analysts have been urging IAF and MOD to cancel procurement of 114 jets under possible contract for $15 billion and instead focus on the construction of Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 which is under development. India presently has three active fighter jet programs Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2, and AMCA, and state-owned ADA recently also proposed Twin-Engined ORCA fighter jet concept which is air force derivative of the TEDBF planned for the Indian Navy for Carrier-based Jet requirements