MiG-29 Fulcrum vs F-16 Viper

[average american]

Monkey model was the unofficial designation given by the Soviet Military to versions military equipment (armored vehicles, airplanes, missiles) of significantly inferior capability to the original designs and intended only for export. The monkey model was exported with the same or a similar designation as the original Soviet design but in fact it lacked many of the advanced or expensive features of the original. Performance and capabilities of export model equipment were so degraded from the original as not to be in any way representative of the original design capabilities.

Monkey-model weaponry was used mainly by non-communist Soviet allies, such as Egypt, Iraq and Syria. Eastern Bloc states generally used fully capable version of Soviet weaponry, although poorer states often used earlier generations of weapons.

The term was popularized in the West by Viktor Suvorov, in Inside the Soviet Army. Suvorov states that the simplified monkey model was designed for massive production in wartime, to replace front-line stocks if a war should last for several weeks. In peacetime, Soviet industry gained experience building both standard and export-model variants, the latter being for sale "to the 'brothers' and 'friends' of the USSR as the very latest equipment available." He also cites the benefit of disinformation when an exported monkey model fell into the hands of Western intelligence, who "naturally gained a completely false impression of the true combat capabilities of the BMP-1 and of Soviet tanks" (Suvorov 1982:215).
I am curious as to which you think India bought, it does kind of bring to mind the term "flying coffins" and horrors of all horrors and nightmares the PAK-FA

 

[deltacamelately]

Monkey model was the unofficial designation given by the Soviet Military to versions military equipment (armored vehicles, airplanes, missiles) of significantly inferior capability to the original designs and intended only for export. The monkey model was exported with the same or a similar designation as the original Soviet design but in fact it lacked many of the advanced or expensive features of the original. Performance and capabilities of export model equipment were so degraded from the original as not to be in any way representative of the original design capabilities.

Monkey-model weaponry was used mainly by non-communist Soviet allies, such as Egypt, Iraq and Syria. Eastern Bloc states generally used fully capable version of Soviet weaponry, although poorer states often used earlier generations of weapons.

The term was popularized in the West by Viktor Suvorov, in Inside the Soviet Army. Suvorov states that the simplified monkey model was designed for massive production in wartime, to replace front-line stocks if a war should last for several weeks. In peacetime, Soviet industry gained experience building both standard and export-model variants, the latter being for sale "to the 'brothers' and 'friends' of the USSR as the very latest equipment available." He also cites the benefit of disinformation when an exported monkey model fell into the hands of Western intelligence, who "naturally gained a completely false impression of the true combat capabilities of the BMP-1 and of Soviet tanks" (Suvorov 1982:215).
I am curious as to which you think India bought, it does kind of bring to mind the term "flying coffins" and horrors of all horrors and nightmares the PAK-FA

I believe that the quoted part was in refrence to the degrading conditions of the MiG 21s, post Soviet Collapse and subsequent shortage of critical spares.
Not that I am privy to what kits the Soviets actually provided to the IAF.

 

[p2prada]

I am curious as to which you think India bought, it does kind of bring to mind the term "flying coffins" and horrors of all horrors and nightmares the PAK-FA

Pre-90s we used to get Monkey models too. But we used some of it to great effect in our own wars.

Now we don't.

Since you are so enamoured by our Flying Coffins, how about F-104 "Widowmaker" and F-16 "Lawn Dart."

More importantly note that Widowmaker and Lawn Dart were names given to American aircraft by pilots who flew the aircraft while Flying Coffins was a name given by the Indian Media, not pilots.

 

[p2prada]

I believe that the quoted part was in refrence to the degrading conditions of the MiG 21s, post Soviet Collapse and subsequent shortage of critical spares.
Not that I am privy to what kits the Soviets actually provided to the IAF.

I believe he learnt that term "Monkey Model" from Damian in the Tanks are obsolete thread and is applying it here for Mig-21s.

 

[asianobserve]

also when US went to war with Iraq...much of Iraq army was in ruins....they had fought Iran for nearly a decade so comparing them with India is useless...

Gulf War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
By 1988, at the end of the Iran–Iraq War, the Iraqi Army was the fourth largest army in the world; it consisted of 955,000 standing soldiers and 650,000 paramilitary forces in the Popular Army. According to John Childs and André Corvisier, a low estimate shows the Iraqi Army capable of fielding 4,500 tanks, 484 combat aircraft and 232 combat helicopters.[43] According to Michael Knights, a high estimate shows the Iraqi army capable of fielding one million men and 850,000 reservists, 5,500 tanks, 3,000 artillery pieces, 700 combat aircraft and helicopters; and held 53 divisions, 20 special-forces brigades, and several regional militias, and had a strong air defence.

 

[p2prada]

Gulf War was mostly the Americans doing the pushing and Iraqis getting pushed back. Once the Iraqis were back in their borders, they were let off.

The time between the Gulf War and the Iraq war was enough to weaken the state through sanctions.

 

[pankaj nema]

IAF Mig 29 UPG with NEW radar and EW suites can take out the Paki F16 block 52

However F 16 block 60 must be definitely better than Mig 29
considering that the Block 60 was being evaluated ALONG with Rafale and Eurofighter typhoon
as a 4.5 gen plane

 

[average american]

But there was a differance the USA fixed its problem,,,,, now the crash rate is The DoD-wide military Class A aviation accident rate was 1.23 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours.compared to 6-7 per 100,000 hours for India. We fixed our problem, you crashed all yours.

 

[pankaj nema]

In the eighties IAF was FORCED to go for BOTH Mirage 2000 and the Mig 29
simply because the F 16 was better and IAF was unsure of taking it on with ONLY the Mirage
2000

Hence we went for both Mirage and Mig 29

Two is better than one huh

 

[average american]

In the eighties IAF was FORCED to go for BOTH Mirage 2000 and the Mig 29
simply because the F 16 was better and IAF was unsure of taking it on with ONLY the Mirage
2000

Hence we went for both Mirage and Mig 29

Two is better than one huh

Maybe and Maybe not, one of the big pushs behind the F35 is it replaces four major air craft and its ease of repair and the support system. The JSF program was designed to replace the United States military F-16, A-10, F/A-18 (excluding newer E/F "Super Hornet" variants) and AV-8B tactical fighter aircraft. To keep development, production, and operating costs down, a common design was planned in three variants that share 80 percent of their parts:

Maintenance

The program's maintenance concept is for any F-35 to be maintained in any F-35 maintenance facility and that all F-35 parts in all bases will be globally tracked and shared as needed.[259] The commonality between the different variants has allowed the USMC to create their first aircraft maintenance Field Training Detachment to directly apply the lessons of the USAF to their own F-35 maintenance operations.[260]

The aircraft has been designed for ease of maintenance, with 95% of all field replaceable parts "one deep" where nothing else has to be removed to get to the part in question. For instance the ejection seat can be replaced without removing the canopy, the aircraft uses low-maintenance electro-hydrostatic actuators instead of hydraulic systems and an all-composite skin without the fragile coatings found on earlier stealth aircraft.


One simiulator can train all pliots for F22 and F35, all the support system will work with the F22 an F35.

The point being and what I am wondering about is how in the world can any one and especially India deal with such a hogepoge of differant equipment ,, pilots, training, maintence, parts, supplies, and techical support for planes from so many countries that are so different. Especially aircraft as complext as the 4.5 generations being planned. I would think the instructiions would even be difficult, even assuming they are english.... Russian to Engish, French to English, Portgues to English. I am assuming English,,, then how good do your technicians understand technical english. Plus you are look something where there is 0 tolerance for mistakes.

 

[p2prada]

But there was a differance the USA fixed its problem,,,,, now the crash rate is The DoD-wide military Class A aviation accident rate was 1.23 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours.compared to 6-7 per 100,000 hours for India. We fixed our problem, you crashed all yours.

It depends on the generation of aircraft that were flying at the time. Mig-21s have a high crash rate in India because we are flying them with substandard spares and IAF wants pilots to put in a lot of flight hours. Also, USAF has withdrawn all Mig-21 generation fighters while we still employ them.

A MKI(300 hours) does 50 hours more flying a year than a F-15(250). A USAF pilot pointed that out during CI-2004. The figures are quite similar for Mig-21 where IAF flies it much more than regular Soviet forces or other Mig-21 users.

For an Air force that is relying on imports and maintaining high flying hours, our accident rate is rather impressive.

If you want modern figures then MKIs crash rate is much more impressive than F-22 since MKIs have been flying for much longer.

Our crash rate is high only because of Mig-21s, other than that there are no major issues with other aircraft.

 

[p2prada]

The point being and what I am wondering about is how in the world can any one and especially India deal with such a hogepoge of differant equipment ,, pilots, training, maintence, parts, supplies, and techical support for planes from so many countries that are so different. Especially aircraft as complext as the 4.5 generations being planned. I would think the instructiions would even be difficult, even assuming they are english.... Russian to Engish, French to English, Portgues to English. I am assuming English,,, then how good do your technicians understand technical english. Plus you are look something where there is 0 tolerance for mistakes.

Well, what can I say. We are awesome.

Don't worry about our penchant for learning new languages. We are masters at it.

 

[SPIEZ]

The American Electronics package would make the American fighters even more deadlier.

Right now no one else matches the credibility of American electronics

 

[The Messiah]

Our migs had a lock-on on paki f-16 while they didn't and ran away during kargil.

that should lay all the speculation to bed.

 

[SPIEZ]

^^ That is because the PAF F16 did not have full BVR capabilities. Add to that they were probably not even upgraded from the time of purchase

 

[p2prada]

The American Electronics package would make the American fighters even more deadlier.

Right now no one else matches the credibility of American electronics

Mig-29 SMT/UPG/K is not that different from F-16 Block 50/52. All the Mig-29 disadvantages in the article were rectified in these versions including fuel capacity, engine power and electronics.

Mig-35 is equivalent to the Block 60, but we don't know it's exact configuration to speculate, including engine power. But what we can say is at least the EW kit on the Mig-35 is more advanced with the Italian Virgilius AESA based EW suite.

 

[SPIEZ]

Mig-29 SMT/UPG/K is not that different from F-16 Block 50/52. All the Mig-29 disadvantages in the article were rectified in these versions including fuel capacity, engine power

No comments there

and electronics.

How do you say so ????

The Americans are probably the best at electronics, compared to the fact that the best processors are made in USA alone. And USA seems to be leading
in the race of electronics, hard to see Russia stand a chance with primitive electronics

 

[p2prada]

How do you say so ????

The Americans are probably the best at electronics, compared to the fact that the best processors are made in USA alone. And USA seems to be leading
in the race of electronics, hard to see Russia stand a chance with primitive electronics

Russians use western components for a lot of their processing needs. Antenna and other radar parts are all top notch, always has been.

The only real aspects the US is ahead is in EW and the maturity of their AESA technology while the Russians could not afford the development of either after SU's dissolution. AESA, as we know is already ready now and only needs to be inducted for it to be mature. IAF will be the first operational user of a Russian AESA radar. For EW, new pods have been built which match American and Israeli analogues, like the SAP-14 and SAP-518. They may not be there yet, but that is only speculating things because of the secrecy involved in EW among all countries.

Another is engine, but once the Type 30 comes into production there is a chance the Russians will overtake the Americans in fighter engine technology. Check PAKFA thread, there is an interview posted there where the interviewee says the Type 30 will generate more T/W than the American 5th gen analogues which is a very big deal.

There was a time when Russia was behind, or rather the Soviet Union. But that was 20 years ago. Things change, obviously.

Btw, the F-16 Block 52 was configured back in the 90s. The same time as Mirage-2000-5 and Mig-29SMT were configured. These aircraft have always been neck and neck in technology. MKI is from the same time, but with a far more advanced radar. The only problem was Russia did not have the money to buy new jets. Without large orders for new Mig-29s from India, China or Russia means other countries cannot afford it either.

However when the older Migs came up for upgrades, they are all at the same level as a block 52 in technology, maybe even better. At least the Indian version will be better with new helmet mounted sights, BEL made AESA EW kits, BEL made weapons dispensers and countermeasures, new weapons better than PAF Aim-120-C5s, new IRST(OLS-UEM) and will be fully multirole capable with large drop tanks. The Mig-29Ks are even better in comparison.

Russians have been using American processors since decades now. Even India has been making CIPs(Common integrated Processors) using Power PC chips made by Apple, IBM, Motorola combo. HCL is the first Indian company to design new Power PC architectures in India since 2005.
India's HCL Tech to set up PowerPC design center

New radar processors meant to be used on DRD-CABS AEW&C were recently revealed. All powerful stuff.

PAKFA will have Integrated Modular Avionics too, just like F-22, F-35 and Rafale. All built on western processors which are easily available to all and sundry.

 

[average american]

In the real world After the collapse of the Soviet Union, three-quarters of the USSR defense enterprises were ceded to Russia. More than 70 cities, factories and closed administration entities were totally dependent on the defense industry. By 2003, the output of the military industrial complex had been steadily decreasing. Compared with 1991, it produced six times less, the power load was reduced by 10-15%, and 40% of the equipment was obsolete. Defense companies had to release more than 2 million workers; even those who remained had salaries that were 40% lower than in the industry as a whole.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a523907.pdf

You cant allow a military inferstructure collapse an start all over at a level compared to the west.

 

[sivachandan]

Being three times the size does not hurt either.

we have the same number of mig29 as that of f16 of PAF