Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) Aircraft

[san]

so maybe we have to turn to russia for helicopter based AEW&C planes

Why you wants everything from Russia?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Could be possible. But these seaplanes will require fueling on even medium range missions. As a shore based AEW platform, it can serve well. However, many technical issues will be glitches including the limited Take-off weight of these seaplanes. But I feel carrier based AEW are still required in deep waters.

Actually India already have such an Aircraft perfectly fits for the job, ( NAL Saras ), For the role of AEW platform SARAS may be extended and powered by Jets in simple words it would be a massive modification to original SARAS light Aircraft, But working on SARAS will help DRDO not to work on a fresh project from scratch, SARAS is a working prototype which just need to adapt for AEW role..

An extended version of Saras is planned. Commercial production of the aircraft is now expected by 2010.

 

[p2prada]

We cannot use the Saras for anything right now. AEW role is out of question. The plane lacks basic structural integrity and aerodynamics is heavily flawed. It is the worst thing flying in the world right now. NAL is not even able to fix problems with its rudder.

Even if Saras is a successful development it is useless in Marine environments. The only planes capable of operation on a carrier is the E-2 and maybe the V-22. Nothing else.

The Saras is so strong that if you add another ton in radars on top of it, its never going to take off from a normal airstrip let alone a carrier.
The Saras undercarriage is so strong that if it tries to land on an aircraft carrier, its going to break into 2 even without the radar.

The Saras is a 8 tons plane. It can never be useful except in civilian transportation. It can carry only 10 to 15 people at a time not more.
The E-2 is a 25 tons plane. See the difference.

 

[AJSINGH]

Why you wants everything from Russia?

well first they are reliable , their weapons are cheap,and robust ,plus comes with no strings attached , if you talk of this particular need expressed in this thread , then as of now Ka-31 is only aircraft which can adress the need of IN, since plane based AWE&C aircraft would need catapult launch which we dont have untill 60,000 tones IAC-2 comes into service

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We cannot use the Saras for anything right now. AEW role is out of question. The plane lacks basic structural integrity and aerodynamics is heavily flawed. It is the worst thing flying in the world right now. NAL is not even able to fix problems with its rudder.

Even if Saras is a successful development it is useless in Marine environments. The only planes capable of operation on a carrier is the E-2 and maybe the V-22. For now..

Right,
But i never said 'original SARAS' nor the word 'NOW'!

simple words it would be a massive modification to original SARAS light Aircraft,

The flaw and can be corrected with better observation and research, Its good to have a working indigenous plane which can fly and with better funding it will improve..

Regarding Marine it may need hard landing gears powerful engines..
Though its better to work on a semi successful project than to start from the scratch..
SARAS is a project which can have multiple diversion in different sectors, Carrier Version, Civillian tarensport/ Military transport, AEW etc..

 

[p2prada]

Right,
But i never said 'original SARAS' nor the word 'NOW'!

The flaw and can be corrected with better observation and research, Its good to have a working indigenous plane which can fly and with better funding it will improve..

You said the current Saras can be improved upon. So, I suggested it cannot.

Regarding Marine it may need hard landing gears powerful engines..

NAL cannot deliver either. It is impossible as we are now.

Though its better to work on a semi successful project than to start from the scratch..
SARAS is a project which can have multiple diversion in different sectors, Carrier Version, Civillian tarensport/ Military transport, AEW etc..

There can never be a carrier version of the Saras. The aerodynamics and flight envelope is that of a small transport plane and not a AEW. AEW needs a platform 4 times heavier than the current version. That will make it a new plane. So, Saras is not the answer.

We need an entirely new plane for any kind of AEW. Instead we can work with Embraer or any other company in developing a Carrier based plane rather than work on our own, cheaper and faster. Maybe Russians.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You said the current Saras can be improved upon. So, I suggested it cannot.

Why not?
It need better funding and more research and correction..

The plane lacks basic structural integrity and aerodynamics is heavily flawed.

I don't think u r right abt Aerodynamics regarding SARAS, If that Aircraft is so heavily flawed it couldn't take off besides it don't have any fly by wire, its operated totally manually..

NAL cannot deliver either. It is impossible as we are now.

NAL & DRDO collaboration may prove useful..

There can never be a carrier version of the Saras. The aerodynamics and flight envelope is that of a small transport plane and not a AEW. AEW needs a platform 4 times heavier than the current version.

Maybe Russians.

multiple diversion in different sectors, Carrier Version, Civillian tarensport/ Military transport, AEW etc..

The term 'multiple diversion' means it have to change its configuration according to environment, that means 10% to 90% change in basic structure..
Btw, Russian don't have any experience regarding carrier based AEW aircrafts.
In these case India have to work on its own or gather knowledge from US..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We need an entirely new plane for any kind of AEW. Instead we can work with Embraer or any other company in developing a Carrier based plane rather than work on our own, cheaper and faster.

My Idea was based on present and future manufacture of DRDO`s AEW based on Indigenous Aircraft which will make entire project 100% Indigenous, which includes Land based Indigenous plane as well as Carrier based Indigenous plane, But if India like to import suitable Aircrafts for the naval program then it is fine and cheap, But what holds in future for those imported Aircrafts is doubtful..

As i have mentioned before Russia never had any carrier based operational AEW, The only country knows and experienced also export is US..

 

[p2prada]

Why not?
It need better funding and more research and correction..

Hardly True. More research and funding is just an excuse. They need better management rather than funds et al. If this was 10 years ago, I would have agreed. Right now they have funds and they have been outsourcing a lot of design work to smaller private companies. They still ended up with a crashed prototype due to faulty design. They don't even know what they are doing. They are changing design specifications every other day. The private companies finish their work in time and NAL send a new design. None of it has ever been properly flight tested. They are clueless.

I don't think u r right abt Aerodynamics regarding SARAS, If that Aircraft is so heavily flawed it couldn't take off besides it don't have any fly by wire, its operated totally manually..

Another excuse. Why does the plane need a fly by wire. It is a 8 tons class plane. Sticking a fly by wire in it will mean increase in costs and nobody will buy it ever. It is relatively very easy to fly this plane. All it does is fly straight, bank left and right. It does not need any complex avionics.

It is like asking for drive by wire in a Maruti 800. Who the heck will buy a Rs 5 Lakh Maruti 800?

The term 'multiple diversion' means it have to change its configuration according to environment, that means 10% to 90% change in basic structure..

I would be happy with one proper flying prototype.

Btw, Russian don't have any experience regarding carrier based AEW aircrafts.

They have far more experience in aircraft design. They deliver finished products. We have done that only once 50 years ago. They also have a requirement for 5 new Carriers. So, an AEW aircraft will be an obvious requirement.

In these case India have to work on its own or gather knowledge from US..

JVs are better. Cheaper and faster. Russia, US, France does not matter who.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Hardly True. More research and funding is just an excuse. They need better management rather than funds et al. If this was 10 years ago, I would have agreed. Right now they have funds and they have been outsourcing a lot of design work to smaller private companies.

I partial agree with you but this is no excuses to stop a indigenous working prototype project..

They still ended up with a crashed prototype due to faulty design. They don't even know what they are doing. They are changing design specifications every other day. The private companies finish their work in time and NAL send a new design. None of it has ever been properly flight tested. They are clueless.

Its a prototype it meant to improve vie change/ Improvement and And besides their was no faulty design in aerodynamics

wrong engine relight drills given to the pilots caused the crash.

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/21/stories/2009072156231300.htm

Why does the plane need a fly by wire. It is a 8 tons class plane. Sticking a fly by wire in it will mean increase in costs and nobody will buy it ever. It is relatively very easy to fly this plane. All it does is fly straight, bank left and right. It does not need any complex avionics.

Nobody said its essential but the point was it was good working model with good aerodynamic..

I would be happy with one proper flying prototype.

1 >The first Saras (PT1) completed its maiden flight at the HAL airport in Bangalore on 29 May 2004.
2> The second prototype (PT2) first flew on 20 April 2007.
3> Work is on the third prototype ( PT3 )

They have far more experience in aircraft design. They deliver finished products. We have done that only once 50 years ago. They also have a requirement for 5 new Carriers. So, an AEW aircraft will be an obvious requirement.

Making land base aircraft and making carrier based Aircraft are very different jobs..
Besides 5 Rus carriers will operate in next 20-50 years, So their are 0% chance with anything related with carrier AEW aircrafts with Russians..

 

[bengalraider]

Could be possible. But these seaplanes will require fueling on even medium range missions. As a shore based AEW platform, it can serve well. However, many technical issues will be glitches including the limited Take-off weight of these seaplanes. But I feel carrier based AEW are still required in deep waters.

I believe i have been understood wrongly ;i was alluding to the times when seaplane spotters accompanied battleships i believe we could build an AWACS based upon the Beriev be 200 aircraft that could similarly accompany the vikaramditya i.e the awacs would not use the flight deck other than for transport over long distances in an operational deployment she would be lowered into the water and would use the sea as her landing strip.

The take off weight should not be a problem the DRDO AWACS programme is based upon the EMB-145 platform which has a MTOW of 18,500kg for the ERJ145xr, much lower than the Beriev the be-200 has a MTOW of 37500kg.
the Beriev also has a range of 2100km i.e more than enough to keep pace with the fleet.

the only issue i believe that could be a problem is the problem with high waves in the deep seas.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I believe i have been understood wrongly ;i was alluding to the times when seaplane spotters accompanied battleships i believe we could build an AWACS based upon the Beriev be 200 aircraft that could similarly accompany the vikaramditya i.e the awacs would not use the flight deck other than for transport over long distances in an operational deployment she would be lowered into the water and would use the sea as her landing strip.

The take off weight should not be a problem the DRDO AWACS programme is based upon the EMB-145 platform which has a MTOW of 18,500kg for the ERJ145xr, much lower than the Beriev the be-200 has a MTOW of 37500kg.
the Beriev also has a range of 2100km i.e more than enough to keep pace with the fleet.

the only issue i believe that could be a problem is the problem with high waves in the deep seas.

1. During WW1&2 Battleships and cruisers launch Amphibious aircraft via catapult and after landing pull them back on ship via crane..
2. Vikramaditya and IAC dont have any big crane to lower such a big Aircraft from the heights which are way more than WW2 Battleships..
3. Be-200 is good amphibious aircraft but like any amphibious it face wild jerks while landing on seas, which may cause damage to the mass amount of electronics kept inside the Aircraft..

4. During high seas, the aircraft will be not operational either based on land or sea..

 

[p2prada]

I partial agree with you but this is no excuses to stop a indigenous working prototype project..

We don't have to. Sir. you need to be objective and see the purpose of the post. You said Saras can be worked on for Carrier aviation as an AEW. I pointed out the mistakes that cannot help it become a AEW. It is not even close to a proper aircraft.

Its a prototype it meant to improve vie change/ Improvement and And besides their was no faulty design in aerodynamics

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/21/stories/2009072156231300.htm


Nobody said its essential but the point was it was good working model with good aerodynamic..

Far from the truth. The administrators handling the project are completely clueless. At first they wanted a fully composite design, then they changed the rudder to metal and now are completely clueless as to what to expect next. The Russians have taken over now.

Take a look at the article again;

The Hindu has learnt from officials connected with the board of inquiry that the engine relight (engine restart) drills given by the designers and followed by the pilots were wrong.

And this;

the pilots just followed the designer's briefings.

You need to be analytical here.
Engine controls depend a lot on external factors. It is the direct result of the aerodynamics of the aircraft in relation to the aircraft during flight. The airflow must be near perfect to complete an engine relight successfully. If you don't know at what speed and what pressure the airflow is coming in then you have no idea what's going to happen. And that's what happened here. The designers had no clue about the quality of the aircraft's design. They assumed something and something else happened. The aerodynamics of the aircraft is the most basic requirement when designing a plane and it is severely lacking in all parameters. It was not an engine fault or pilot's fault. It was the designers fault for providing wrong information to the pilots about the aerodynamics of the aircraft. It only means the designers are clueless.

1 >The first Saras (PT1) completed its maiden flight at the HAL airport in Bangalore on 29 May 2004.
2> The second prototype (PT2) first flew on 20 April 2007.
3> Work is on the third prototype ( PT3 )

You failed to understand my point again.

Besides 5 Rus carriers will operate in next 20-50 years, So their are 0% chance with anything related with carrier AEW aircrafts with Russians..

There were 2 AEW developments that were worked on by Russia. They stopped after the breakup in '91. They are capable of developing a plane that can land on a carrier deck. We are not.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You need to be analytical here.
Engine controls depend a lot on external factors. It is the direct result of the aerodynamics of the aircraft in relation to the aircraft during flight. The airflow must be near perfect to complete an engine relight successfully. If you don't know at what speed and what pressure the airflow is coming in then you have no idea what's going to happen. And that's what happened here. The designers had no clue about the quality of the aircraft's design. They assumed something and something else happened. The aerodynamics of the aircraft is the most basic requirement when designing a plane and it is severely lacking in all parameters. It was not an engine fault or pilot's fault. It was the designers fault for providing wrong information to the pilots about the aerodynamics of the aircraft. It only means the designers are clueless.

@p2prada,
I find better article on the crash, it not Aerodynamic faulty design..

PROBABLE CAUSE(S):
Incorrect relight procedure devised by the designer and adopted by the crew at insufficient height leading to rapid loss of altitude and abnormal behavior of aircraft resulted into accident.
Contributory factors:
a) Lack of crew coordination and cockpit procedures
b) Handling of the controls
c) Non-aborting of flight by the crew in coordination with the flight test Director after failure of first relight attempt.
d) Devising engine relight procedures by NAL without consulting the propeller manufacturer.

http://aviationsafetynetwork.wordpr...t-flight-causes-crash-of-nal-saras-prototype/

RIP..

There were 2 AEW developments that were worked on by Russia. They stopped after the breakup in '91. They are capable of developing a plane that can land on a carrier deck. We are not.

Those were prototypes not operational and presently their are no plans of Carrier based AEW, If Russia work again on those project than we may have a JV with them but their are no such projects right now therefore their is no chance of Russian involvements, But JV with US is possible..

 

[Rahul Singh]

For upcoming carriers this is the only option and for IN it could be best as it will be easy to integrate with P-8Is.

 

[plugwater]

Indian Navy planning to procure 4 planes for airborne surveillance

New Delhi: Looking to strengthen its surveillance capabilities and control over the maritime zone, the Indian Navy is planning to procure four aircraft carrier-based Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) planes.

"We are planning to procure four carrier-based AEW&C aircraft to carry out airborne surveillance, detection and tracking of airborne and surface contacts and control air interceptions and air strikes," Navy officials told PTI in New Delhi.

At present, the Navy operates the carrier-borne Kamov-31, which were procured from Russia for early warning roles.

Using AEW&C aircraft on aircraft carriers will help in expanding the area under surveillance near the area of their deployment, they added.

"The control over the area would also be increased as the AEW&C aircraft can detect enemy fighter and maritime patrol aircraft and direct the fighter planes attached with it towards them and take them out," officials said.

The aircraft can be used as command and control platforms, they said adding, "The aircraft should be capable of providing an integrated air and surface picture of the area under surveillance in adverse weather conditions."

The Navy wants the aircraft to be capable of Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) technique for the launch and recovery of aircraft.

Navy is in the process of finalising the design on the second indigenous aircraft carrier, which is likely to be similar to the American aircraft carriers, which use the CATOBAR technique for launch and recovery of aircraft.

The Russian aircraft carriers such as the Admiral Gorshkov are built for ski-jump take-offs and arrested landings of fighter aircraft.

The Navy also wants the aircraft to carry out patrolling and search and rescue roles.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...re-4-planes-for-airborne-surveillance_1393194

 

[p2prada]

Devising engine relight procedures by NAL without consulting the propeller manufacturer.

Exactly what I meant. They have no clue when it comes to aerodynamics. They have no idea what happens to the air flow around propellers and are jumping to wrong conclusions due to lack of knowledge.

You devise engine relighting procedures based on the aerodynamics of the aircraft. Propellers are part of the aerodynamics of the aircraft.

It is very easy to design a plane that flies. So many small and big companies are able to do it in just a year or 2. Only we take a million years to do the same and that too come out with a screwed up design.

 

[p2prada]

Those were prototypes not operational and presently their are no plans of Carrier based AEW, If Russia work again on those project than we may have a JV with them but their are no such projects right now therefore their is no chance of Russian involvements, But JV with US is possible..

It does not matter who the JV is with. Let it be with the US, Russia or lets rope in EADS. It is just that we cannot do it alone with our level of management and technical skills. We simply don't have the experience or the technical know how.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They have no clue when it comes to aerodynamics. They have no idea what happens to the air flow around propellers and are jumping to wrong conclusions due to lack of knowledge.


.

Perhaps you missed the most important fact that Pt-2 was having new engines and new propeller deign which Pratt & Whitney's inexplicable failure to convey enough about the engine and propeller to the aircraft's maker and so NAL also didn't consulting with propeller manufacturer. The new propeller is the root of the entire accident thats why ASN site mentioned abt propeller!

NOW what i see its the engine maker who is responsible and partially NAL.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/search?q=NAL+saras+crash+report

It does not matter who the JV is with. Let it be with the US, Russia or lets rope in EADS. It is just that we cannot do it alone with our level of management and technical skills. We simply don't have the experience or the technical know how.

True that's the reason the best option would be JV..

 

[LETHALFORCE]

SAAB 340 MSA, SAAB 2000 MPA Offered for Indian Navy Maritime Surveillance Requirement

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4934

2011-01-06 Swedish defense major Saab has confirmed to India Defence (indiadefence.in) that the SAAB 340 Maritime Security Aircraft and the SAAB 2000 Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft have been offered to the Indian Coast Guard and Indian Navy respectively to meet the security and surveillance requirements across India's vast coastline.

"We have already made a presentation to Coast Guard for SAAB 340 Maritime Security Aircraft as a contender for Mid-Tier Maritime Patrol (MTMP) aircraft program and are waiting for further updates from them."

"We have offered SAAB 2000 MPA to Indian Navy under medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) program."

-- Mr. Inderjit Sial, Saab's Country Head for India

Saab 340 MSA
The Saab 340 MSA is multi-role surveillance aircraft for detection, clasification and identification of maritime contacts. It is also a powerfull Search-And-Rescue asset and is capable of operating independently or in unison with other marine and land-based assets.

* Cost Effective Surveillance - With a maximum endurance of 7 hours and a maximum range in excess of 1,300 NM.
* Reliable Sensors - Equipped with proven sensors for detecting, classifying and identifying maritime surface contacts.


Saab 2000 MPA
The Saab 2000 MPA is a multi-role airborne surveillance platform for Maritime Domain Awareness. It offers Intelligence, Surveillance & Reconnaissance, ISR, maritime patrol and enforcement options either working alone or together with other assets and that ensures your command of the maritime arena.

* Long Range and Long Endurance - With a maximum endurance in excess of 9 hours and a maximum range in excess of 2000 nm.
* Advanced Sensors - The Saab 2000 MPA is equipped with advanced sensors for detecting, classifying and identifying surface and subsurface targets.