Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

I had already posted the difference between the two. It's gone. I will post a second time once the situation stabilizes.

 

[Damian]

I wonder if our current batch of T-90s can be upgraded to T-90AM standard or would it need a major change in turret design. The hull and turret internal estate can be changed during production though.

Hull need major modernisation, turret need to be replaced by new production one.

Interesting, side surfaces of T-90M vel T-90AM are protected by something that looks like 4S24 ERA, also front turret cover is very good, ERA is even placed on top of composite armor cavity's.

 

[p2prada]

Isn't the 4S24 meant to be a lot thicker? I am talking about the front. The sides look thick enough to be 4S24. Or the depth makes it difficult for me to differentiate between the two.

 

[Damian]

Front and top mounted turret ERA is 4S23 Relikt, same for hull front and sides, turret sides looks like 4S24.

 

[p2prada]

So, most of whatever Igor posted on Defunct Humanity was quite accurate. But he had named it the T-90M while it is the T-90AM.

In time we may no more about the larger underfloor autoloader and also the bustle autoloader. Perhaps new shells in the making. It would be good if we manage to squeeze the T-90AM in the last 500 tanks to be manufactured. The more the better.

 

[anoop_mig25]

is the surfacing on new t-90am tanks would have adverse effects on current development going on arjun (version2) tanks. why news of t-90am tanks is now surfacing. i think something fishy there. even though arjun(v1/v2) may not be of high calibare but as most of poster said it was better then t-90.

 

[p2prada]

is the surfacing on new t-90am tanks would have adverse effects on current development going on arjun (version2) tanks. why news of t-90am tanks is now surfacing. i think something fishy there. even though arjun(v1/v2) may not be of high calibare but as most of poster said it was better then t-90.

The opposite of the bold part was established. The T-90 is a superior tank.

The Arjun has long been rejected for the T-90. There is a possibility the Army was involved in the T-90AM project. The Arjun Mk2 is only meant to validate indigenous technology and be a stepping stone to a much more modern tank which may see induction after the T-90 production is complete around 2020. The T-90M or AM was always in the reckoning. There was concrete evidence that the T-90 would further evolve since the T-95 was cancelled. The Russian Army did say the T-90 will be the mainstay followed by the Armada tank after 2015.

Currently 124 Arjun Mk1s are being made while another 124 Arjun Mk2s will see production in 2014. Beyond that any potential orders are yet to be seen. The Army ordering 248 tanks were only mentioned by DRDO chief as a possibility of happening in the near future. But don't expect anything beyond the numbers mentioned here. 500 Arjun tanks for DRDO to make a profit and learn from it, that's all.

 

[sayareakd]

which one is better T90S, T90M or T90AM ???

Plus why T90 tank need better protection in T90AM ??? is the protection in T90S is not enough ???

 

[Damian]

So, most of whatever Igor posted on Defunct Humanity was quite accurate. But he had named it the T-90M while it is the T-90AM.

Tank is called T-90M vel T-90AM because it still don't have official designation name.

The Russian Army did say the T-90 will be the mainstay followed by the Armada tank after 2015.

Actually project is called "Armata" not "Armada", and it is not just pure tank, "Armata" project is focused on developing new generation of AFV's. All of these will be based on common heavy universal combat platform in different configurations.

which one is better T90S, T90M or T90AM ???

T-90S is eksport version, there are two subvariants of T-90S, the old one with turret welded from CHA elements, it is based on old T-90. Newer T-90S is based on T-90A, it is using turret welded from RHA plates.

T-90M vel T-90AM is completely new variant, better protected, with better FCS, better gun (2A82 instead of 2A46M-5), better engine, everything is better.

Plus why T90 tank need better protection in T90AM ??? is the protection in T90S is not enough ???

T-90M/AM is better protected due to newest APFSDS ammunition development in US, T-90/T-90S with turret made from CHA elements is allready vurnabale to M829A2 ammunition, T-90A/T-90S with turret welded from RHA plates is vurnabale to M829A3 ammunition, simple these types of APFSDS rounds were specially designed to defeat tanks protected with heavy ERA like 4S22 Kontakt-5.

Newest 4S23 Relikt ERA is less vurnabale to M829A2 and M829A3 ammunition, however US soon will field completely new M829A4 APFSDS ammunition, new M1111 MRM-CE GLATGM (max range 12,000m) and in nearest future new AMP (Advanced Multi Purpose) ammunition.

Also there are efforts in US to replace old M256/L44 120mm smoothbore gun with newest lightweight M360A1/L48 120mm smoothbore gun that is high pressure, high impulse, tank version of M360/L48 120mm smoothbore lightweight, low recoil gun for vehicles lighter than 40 tons.

This new gun will be a part of future M1 Main Battle Tanks modernisation program that will start in 2013 and will eventually end with new M1A3 variant.

So Russians still want to have something competetive, especially because future of "Armata" project is uncertain, and knowing how procurement programs of heavy equipment in Russia look currently, there are probably some doubts about it future.

 

[p2prada]

I call it both Armata as well as Armada. Not sure which one is correct so you will find my posts with both names.

I don't like Armata though. Does not have a ring in it's name.

EDIT: I am happy we are not competing with the US as of today.

 

[Damian]

I don't like Armata though. Does not have a ring in it's name.

It have, especially in Polish, in my language Armata means high calliber gun, like tank gun.

EDIT: I am happy we are not competing with the US as of today.

Currently any country, even PRC need to prioritize it's armed forces modernisation to at least try to compete with USA, this is why PRC spend most of funds for Navy and Air Forces modernisation, while PRC Land Forces are strong only by pure numbers, they got really small quantities of rather modern equipment so US.Army, ARNG and USMC even after reductions are stronger in training, technology, C4ISR etc.

US Land Forces also have very big reserves of equipment stored in CONUS magazines and in some POMCUS magazines, however equipment stored in calm Europe will be back in to US, it seems that only two POMCUS magazines will be full with equipment, this means POMCUS in Kuwait and POMCUS in South Korea, rest of equipment will be stored in US.

 

[jamwal]

I have doubts about authenticity of the source article

 

[Damian]

What do You mean?

 

[p2prada]

It have, especially in Polish, in my language Armata means high calliber gun, like tank gun.

Ah! If it is an actual word then I cannot dispute it.

It seems like the Armata may be the equivalent of the American FCS of their newer BCG program albeit a lot cheaper.

Currently any country, even PRC need to prioritize it's armed forces modernisation to at least try to compete with USA, this is why PRC spend most of funds for Navy and Air Forces modernisation, while PRC Land Forces are strong only by pure numbers, they got really small quantities of rather modern equipment so US.Army, ARNG and USMC even after reductions are stronger in training, technology, C4ISR etc.

The IAF currently has the largest procurement budget among the three wings in India. The navy will follow soon with their stealth destroyers, carriers and submarines soon enough. IN alone plans to spend $50Billion within this decade.

The Army is working on the FINSAS program which is meant to modernize our entire army to 21st century standards by 2020.

US Land Forces also have very big reserves of equipment stored in CONUS magazines and in some POMCUS magazines, however equipment stored in calm Europe will be back in to US, it seems that only two POMCUS magazines will be full with equipment, this means POMCUS in Kuwait and POMCUS in South Korea, rest of equipment will be stored in US.

The American hardware cannot be matched in this decade. China has the best possible chance to do it in the future followed by Russia and India much later.

I have doubts about authenticity of the source article

If you are talking about the article posted by thread starter, then no. It is highly suspect.

If you are talking about post #1034 by black eagle, then it has a higher chance of being close to the truth because the same journo has posted info from a different source, meaning it is not his own work.

The T-90AM is real.

 

[p2prada]

Found this in the Arjun thread;

It shows the T-90 with the Israeli Iron Fist APS. Neat.

EDIT: It is photoshopped, but it seems to be on the cards.

 

[anoop_mig25]

The opposite of the bold part was established. The T-90 is a superior tank.

The Arjun has long been rejected for the T-90. There is a possibility the Army was involved in the T-90AM project. The Arjun Mk2 is only meant to validate indigenous technology and be a stepping stone to a much more modern tank which may see induction after the T-90 production is complete around 2020. The T-90M or AM was always in the reckoning. There was concrete evidence that the T-90 would further evolve since the T-95 was cancelled. The Russian Army did say the T-90 will be the mainstay followed by the Armada tank after 2015.

Currently 124 Arjun Mk1s are being made while another 124 Arjun Mk2s will see production in 2014. Beyond that any potential orders are yet to be seen. The Army ordering 248 tanks were only mentioned by DRDO chief as a possibility of happening in the near future. But don't expect anything beyond the numbers mentioned here. 500 Arjun tanks for DRDO to make a profit and learn from it, that's all.

well for ur reply u must have hear read news/post/thread that how arjun1 beat t-90 when their trial where held against each other in rajasthan. i donot think i should post old stuff again here.

 

[p2prada]

well for ur reply u must have hear read news/post/thread that how arjun1 beat t-90 when their trial where held against each other in rajasthan. i donot think i should post old stuff again here.

The Arjun showed slightly higher accuracy rate when firing on the move, that's about it. There is nothing special in it. The Leclerc shows superior accuracy than the Abrams while firing on the move, but we know which tank is the better one for obvious reasons.

The media simply articulated the same point again and again trying to show as though this single point alone determines everything along with focusing on the T-72s design flaws and performance in Gulf War which mostly has nothing to do with the T-90A. Its like trying to equate the MKI in the same level as the first Flanker model. The fact is with the Arjun as is today cannot take on the Pakistani T-80UD while the T-90A of 1999 can.

No matter how many times the same point is repeated over and over again nationalism always wins over logic to the point where the Arjun brigade can come up with only one seemingly "logical" reason for why the Arjun was rejected - The Generals are corrupt.

 

[Damian]

The Leclerc shows superior accuracy than the Abrams while firing on the move, but we know which tank is the better one for obvious reasons.

Actually Leclerc did not show any superiority over M1A2 when both were tested, not to mention that M1A1SA/M1A1FEP and M1A2SEP currently use completely new FCS with optoelectronics superior to... well anything, I did not see any modern MBT with main sight 50x zoom, same for commander panoramic viewer, now the only thing that this FCS lacks is autotracker... hopefully next step will be to revive MTAS/SAVA FCS or designing new FCS based on MTAS/SAVA FCS principles like multi sensor targeting system using also small radar.

But of course Leclerc have some advantages over M1 seris, at least now. For example longer gun and suspension, I really like these parts of Leclerc design.

The fact is with the Arjun as is today cannot take on the Pakistani T-80UD while the T-90A of 1999 can.

Yup, if they want to improve Arjun firepower, they should replace currently used gun with something smoothbore... a hell with this buy German RH-120 or even from US their newest M360A1 that is lightweight (more weight can be distributed for different things, M360A1 gives ~2 metric tons of weight savings, these can be used for better armor), M360A1 can fire different ammunitions, from APFSDS, classic HEAT, MPAT, cannister ammunition to programmabale HE and GLATGM's thanks to build in data link.

 

[p2prada]

But of course Leclerc have some advantages over M1 seris, at least now. For example longer gun and suspension, I really like these parts of Leclerc design.

What I heard was the Leclerc can move faster than any tank and fire accurately. Doing 10Km faster than the M1 versions.

Yup, if they want to improve Arjun firepower, they should replace currently used gun with something smoothbore... a hell with this buy German RH-120 or even from US their newest M360A1 that is lightweight (more weight can be distributed for different things, M360A1 gives ~2 metric tons of weight savings, these can be used for better armor), M360A1 can fire different ammunitions, from APFSDS, classic HEAT, MPAT, cannister ammunition to programmabale HE and GLATGM's thanks to build in data link.

Dunno if those guns are available to us. Even if they are available, ToT will not be available and thus indigenous manufacturing will be impossible. It would be better to develop our own smoothbore gun since we have experience dealing with the 2A46M and 2A46M-2/5 series. We are not looking at a new tank prototype for our FMBT until 2017.

There are a lot of conflicting reports about the Arjun Mk2. Some articles say the weight has been increased to 62 tons while some say 66 tons. One article says the Arjun has reduced it's weight to 55 tons due to better design. So, it would be impossible to jump to any conclusion without official inputs. That will be possibly available only after 2012 when the full systems tests will start for Mk2. Right now DRDO is just testing some extra components on the Arjun Mk1 like new Thermals(Matis), APS, ERA etc. A lot of guesswork here. New engine, transmission, composite armour etc will take another year or 2 to fully assemble before testing. Hopefully, a better gun is in the offing. Too much work is still left and even the 2014 date may be a little too optimistic. But the Army will be forced to go for an incomplete tank again in such a situation. All to protect our pride.

 

[p2prada]

M1 Abrams Versus T-90 (English Subtitles) - YouTube

A rather decent video explaining a Russian POV on the T-90. This is something like what we hear from History Channel or Discovery on the Abrams.

It is obviously biased, but it still gives a decent picture on the T-90s capabilities.