Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Dazzler]

continued...

Pictech, The Precision Investment Castings by lost wax process

Manufacturer of Alloy and Special Steels in Pakistan - Karachi

ARDE Pakistan

Daudsons Pvt. Ltd.

 

[Dazzler]

news has it that t-80ud fire control system has been reverse engineered and upgraded by ASRF to incorporate innovations such as Rehbar series of battle field management system. Recently being trialled at HIT


some shots of ASRF's exclusive 1G-46 manufacturing facility,,

repair and testing lab for new fire control systems

 

[Dazzler]

from electro slag remelting steel, 125 mm smoothbore barrel being made at heavy machine factory

 

[bose]

Till now knowed facts are opposide to this sentence...

The known facts from head to head trails has proved that Arjun Mark II is far better than T-90S and it is a close chapter now...

The Soviet era Tanks that includes the Ukrainians and Chinese cheap copy will not able to come up against a Javline or spike...

Those Soviet era tanks are 20 years or more behind a Leopard or Abrams....

So for India Arjun Mark - II is more than enough to take on those cheap tin cans...

After how many yers developmend phase? 25?

And hom wany Al Chalid where produced after ~8 yers? Over 400?

Al Khalid took 8 years ??? that too based on a Ukranian design + ERA + Engine and some electronics from here and there...

Add the years it took to develop the T-80D tanks on the top of 8 years then you get the correct years ... Just modifying small things here and there and calling it as theirs are not developement...

 

[skumar7777]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c6KLbPR7-hY

Unfortunately, all the teams except China used T-72B tanks . Would have been interesting to compare Arjun vs other tanks.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is quite expensive to move Couple of Arjuns to Russia via C-17s, Besides the cost the Russian provides only maintenance of there own Origin tanks in that case we have to move more than just Arjuns ..

China on other hand can transport their tanks via railways ..

Unfortunately, all the teams except China used T-72B tanks . Would have been interesting to compare Arjun vs other tanks.

 

[Apollyon]

continued...

Pictech, The Precision Investment Castings by lost wax process

Manufacturer of Alloy and Special Steels in Pakistan - Karachi

ARDE Pakistan

Daudsons Pvt. Ltd.

These are all commercial grade alloys.
A glimpse on what DRDO is doing: DRDO Technology Focus (April 2011) - Materials Technologies

 

[Sovngard]

Also what is the view of experts about NLAW ? Just briefly is enough.

According to me, the RB 57 has several interesting points :

• The advantage to be a fire forget missile (using the RB 57 is rather simple).
• Its inertial guidance renders it unjammable and also renders the user undetectable before the launch.
• It's also based on proven technologies as the RBS 56 BILL 1 ATGM ( roll rate stabilizer, warhead, fuze) and the AT-4CS (saltwater countermass).
• Same size as an AT-4 and can also be shoulder fired like the latter.

T-90A2

 

[jouni]

According to me, the RB 57 has several interesting points :

• The advantage to be a fire forget missile (using the RB 57 is rather simple).
• Its inertial guidance renders it unjammable and also renders the user undetectable before the launch.
• It's also based on proven technologies as the RBS 56 BILL 1 ATGM ( roll rate stabilizer, warhead, fuze) and the AT-4CS (saltwater countermass).
• Same size as an AT-4 and can also be shoulder fired like the latter.

.

Thanks, looks like a good choise for us. This in our terrain gives individual fighters real firepower. It being light and efficient means its the "panzerfaust" for 21st century

 

[Dazzler]

These are all commercial grade alloys.
A glimpse on what DRDO is doing: DRDO Technology Focus (April 2011) - Materials Technologies

these and many other companies are involved in R&D for composite materials with HIT, only commercial products are mentioned on their websites. For material research, only ARDE and AARDIC spend $60 million per year alone. Alsons is another such firm.

Sheet Metal Manufacturer, Press Parts Manufacturer, Plastic Manufacturer, Plastic Assemblies, Karachi, Pakistan

 

[Damian]

Thanks militarysta, if I'm not asking too much could you put in the table the rest of the western tanks? Abrahm, Leclerc,Ariete and Challenger?

M1A1SA, M1A1FEP and M1A2SEP are considered as designs with highest crew survivability thanks to ammunition storage design. Also in my and Militarysta opinion they have the most consistent frontal protection, tough obviously still not perfect, but close. Also these tanks have the best FCS and electrooptics today.

The Leclerc have advantage in tactical mobility, probably have the best strategic mobility due to smaller size and weight than other comparable NATO MBT's. It also have autoloader so it might be advantage, or not depending on situation.

Challenger 2 have very good frontal protection, it have probably the best and heaviest addon armor package protecting it's sides, however it suffers due to lower firepower by the use of obsolete rifled gun, and also have poor tactical mobility, it's engine is critically underpowered for something such heavy.

C1 Ariete is... well, it is ambition of some companies and officials in Italy, but due to poor funding of the project, it nowhere near comparable to the NATO's great 4. It have weaknesses in design, for example exposed turret sides are protected only by thin steel armor and not special armor. It have a very unsafe ammunition storage.

 

[militarysta]

Again anbout chineese tank:

as we can see - frotnal armour module have not bad LOS equal to 660mm -and whit backplate it give us 700mm LOS what is nice value.

But...ALL chineese tanks and pakistani Al-Chalid have the same problem -it's turret protection for more then +/-25 degree from turret longitiudal axis is weak.

Blue lines on photo are marking LOS for 35. form longitiudal axis:
440mm + 40mm backplate = 480mm LOS
540mm + 40mm backplate = 580mm LOS
250mm + 40mm backplate = ~300mm LOS

First and third value are thinner then Leo-2A5 gun mantled mask the middle one (580mm LOS) is simmilar then Leo-2A5 gun mantled mask thickness :cool2:

Simmilar problem have Al Chalid couse turret geometry which is exatly copied from chineese Type 98.

ps. notice that frontal LOS is nice

 

[militarysta]

Also what is the view of experts about NLAW ? Just briefly is enough.
(...)
Thanks, looks like a good choise for us. This in our terrain gives individual fighters real firepower. It being light and efficient means its the "panzerfaust" for 21st century

It's not so simple

First genneral notice: NLAW is very good han-held AT weapons. In fact it can be name as "mini ATGM".
But of course it's not the ultimate weapons system.

First- NLAW have overfly top attack mode nod diving top attack mode (like Spike, Javelin, NAG). for sucht reson NLAW (like 95%) other ATGMS and RPGS is valuable on even simple APS countrmeasures. S-F? Not exatly. Hard-Hill APS system are serial used on Merkava's Mk.4, on serial K2 tank, and it will be used on Kurganiec-25 new russian IFV (the "Afganiec" system - so refreshed "Drozd") and on new Armata MBT. For the other hand: passive guidens in NLAW make it's protect and unvalubale against soft-kill APS system (Galix, Sztora, Wartha, Obra, KAPS etc).
Overfly NLAW attack mode is concected whit it's SC (heat) warhed. And here we have next disapointment: it's single warhed without any precursor.
It's 102mm dimater so: 102mm x 8,5 = ~870mm RHA and this is the max NLAW RHA penetration.
In theory is shoud be more the ok. Well...it'smore then HOT-2 had!
But -how about ERA? Ussaly all ERA have problem whit bigger hit angle then 30-45 degree. In other wold -they are uneffective abowe some higer angle.
But they are some ERA very effective even for 60-80 hit angle(!)
for example polish ERAWA-2 have Capability of the Protection for sucht angle qual to CP= 70-76% and 75%-80%

So if NLAW hit turret roof protected by ERAWA-2 then ERA will "eat" sucht value for it's penetrtion value.
So from ~870mm RHA penetration it will be finnaly 260-170mm RHA penetration (depend on hit angle).

in theory it's enought to penetrate tank roof. But what if ERA will have even better effectivens for sucht angle? Imposibble? Not really.
And what if tank roof will have 20-30cm special armour on it (Leopard-2A5 and Merkava Mk.iV...) + ERA?

NLAWS seems to have preatty big warhed whit seriously big RHA peneration value but it have no contrmeasures agianst ERA (precursor etc) -it seems to be developed on priciples"
"wooooohaaaaa Im sucht big SC warhed that i will overpas ERA casette for this angle + turret roof"
But some ERA (ERAWA-2, Knive) are pretty effective even on bigger angle, and what if someday someone will produce ERA effective for the same way for 30-45 and 90. degree?
NLAW will suck in that case...

For this resons I would give NLAW number two after Predator SRAW, but of course before classic Pancerfaust-3IT600

 

[jouni]

Seems to be pretty good, good that it is manufactured in Sweden, supply should be plenty in the time of crisis. Hope we don't have to use them though.

 

[Akim]

Russian-Ukrainian war pretty much change in the concept of using tanks.

 

[Damian]

Well, truth to be told, there were three problems I observed in Ukrainian Army.

1. Basic problem was relatively poor training of tank crews.

2. Second problem was that Ukrainian Army in general did not had tanks prepared for assymetric warfare.

3. And then there is additional problem with the overall design of the T tanks, that do not have isolated ammunition compartments.

Ukrainians have sollutions to problems no. 2 and 3, but they don't have money to implement them on large scale unfortunetaly.

No. 2 can be solved by implementation of the new ERA kits like "Duplet" presented on BM "Oplot", no. 3 was solved long time ago in form of T-72-120 and BM "Yatagan" projects.

 

[Akim]

Well, truth to be told, there were three problems I observed in Ukrainian Army.

1. Basic problem was relatively poor training of tank crews.

2. Second problem was that Ukrainian Army in general did not had tanks prepared for assymetric warfare.

3. And then there is additional problem with the overall design of the T tanks, that do not have isolated ammunition compartments.

Ukrainians have sollutions to problems no. 2 and 3, but they don't have money to implement them on large scale unfortunetaly.

No. 2 can be solved by implementation of the new ERA kits like "Duplet" presented on BM "Oplot", no. 3 was solved long time ago in form of T-72-120 and BM "Yatagan" projects.

How could you observe? You were on the front? All analyses will be after the war and then for a narrow circle of specialists. Have pictures of the turret of the T-72 equipped with ERA "Relic" was torn off. How? There are examples when the tank was kept 8 hits from RPGs and continued the fight, and there are examples when the tank was blinded by large-caliber sniper rifle. There are examples, when the tanks were covered with the MRLS. All of this will be explored. This is the first full-scale war in the post-Soviet space.

 

[Dazzler]

How could you observe? You were on the front? All analyses will be after the war and then for a narrow circle of specialists. Have pictures of the turret of the T-72 equipped with ERA "Relic" was torn off. How? There are examples when the tank was kept 8 hits from RPGs and continued the fight, and there are examples when the tank was blinded by large-caliber sniper rifle. There are examples, when the tanks were covered with the MRLS. All of this will be explored. This is the first full-scale war in the post-Soviet space.

T-72B3 with Relikt ERA right? Can you share some insight whether there was any tank on tank confrontation between t-64s and 72? Also, did BM Bulat took part in any confrontation or was it just BVs and Bs?

 

[CCP]

VT-3 (Type 59-125mm export version)

VT-2 (Type 85 II export version)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is right that one cannot predict accurately the conclusion this soon though, I agree with Damian on the 3rd point which is infamous about these design all over the globe ..

Though, I don`t doubt the training but the tactics and how it has been implemented ..

How could you observe? You were on the front? All analyses will be after the war and then for a narrow circle of specialists. Have pictures of the turret of the T-72 equipped with ERA "Relic" was torn off. How? There are examples when the tank was kept 8 hits from RPGs and continued the fight, and there are examples when the tank was blinded by large-caliber sniper rifle. There are examples, when the tanks were covered with the MRLS. All of this will be explored. This is the first full-scale war in the post-Soviet space.

Well, truth to be told, there were three problems I observed in Ukrainian Army.

3. And then there is additional problem with the overall design of the T tanks, that do not have isolated ammunition compartments.