Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

The reason Pakistan "rejected" Abrams is because it was never offered to them. PA desperately wanted it in the 1990s, especially after seeing it in action in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, but after the 1998 nuke tests, US sanctions made sure that Pakistan would NEVER get the Abrams. So, in desparation, Pakistan had turned to it's new overlords, PRC, who were trying to export their MBT-2000 (export version of the Type 90) anyway. Long story short, PA got it's "home-made" Al Khalid, which is 90% similar to the Chinese Type 90.

Nope try Type-85. Al Khalid came much much later.

This is another typical jingoistic view on Pakistan. Heck, ever heard about Gen Zia ul Haq? Do you know how he died? Do you know what he did before he died? I will tell you. He died in a Plane crash AFTER he had just evaluated the M1 Abrams near a city south of Islamabad. Something called Bawalpur... This was as far as back in 1988. Forget the crash. Pakistan evaluated the Abrams and decided to go for the Type-85 instead. This was half a decade before the 1998 Nuclear tests. Heck the Americans were actually desperate to sell the Abrams to Pakistan in order to cut costs. Lucky for them Egypt bought the tank.

As for the people who don't live on my planet - I know! They are ignorant jingoistic fundamentalist bums, who do not understand reason, logic and scientific knowledge.

Unfortunately yes. But I wouldn't call them fundamentalist.

Regarding Abrams and Chellengers frontal armor being destroyed by RPGs, that is a myth created by Russians and pro-Russian fanboys.

BBC or Guardian reported the Challenger 2 loss in Iraq with the latest armour. Washington Post reported 80 Abrams have been sent back to the US after losses. It seems BBC, Guardian and Washington Post editors are either Russians or pro Russian fanboys. LOL.

Go tell this to the C-2 driver's family.

Heck, you may not have met Russians, but I do work with a couple of expatriate Russians, and the stories I hear from them, tell me that the "New Russia" is India with fairer skin.

Good for them. But why is that related to the military? I had Chinese friends during my school years. Their grandparents fled China in order to escape persecution and they believe they are Indians. My friends and I call them "wannabe" Indians for some healthy fun. So, how is that related to militarily related to anything what an expatriate thinks? Heck a lot of NRIs think they are more American than Indian.

Heck there are jews in the north east who think they are more Israeli than Indian.

As I have mentioned before, they are a shadow of the Soviet era and the technical and talent base is still in decline, unlike India where technological skills are improving. Russia is currently about 2 decades behind USA in technology and India is another 2 decades behind Russia. By 2030, Indian technology will be at par with Russia, unless fanboys like you are successful in destroying all Indian advances by naysaying about homegrown technologies.

Jeez wheez. Their hardware is as good as ever, actually their hardware is even better than what it was during Soviet times. Talk about going wrong in an entire post. Heck every line had to be corrected. It's only their electronics that suffers and they make do with western imports for the same to keep up.

By 2030, Indian technology may even surpass US and China. Its a long time and the entire high echelons will be replaced by a younger generation who do not mind actually working. Heck we already have plans for an exa computing facility.

I am not a naysayer of home grown technologies, I am a supporter of the armed forces decision. There has been plenty of times when indigenous tech has been accepted and also rejected for imports. Everybody in the world does that. It is just that you need to know when to draw the line. The Arjun was far from ready. That is obviously the reason why T-90 was chosen.

T-90 is a great tank. Period.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No. The Challenger 2 that was hit was with the latest in Dorchester armour. The Govt hid that information from public for 8 months because the tank that was penetrated was the latest model of the Challenger 2. In 2003, they even launched an investigation on why the C-2s ERA was penetrated over the latest armour.

This was quite a big deal in Britain in 2003. All the C-2 tanks in Iraq have Dorchester armour.



It injured all 4 occupants. The Driver is more in focus because he lost his leg in the mishap.

Better get some solid links to back your claims ( UK MOD ), Otherwise stop posting low standered cheap posts, its simple degrading the forum..

 

[ace009]

Nope try Type-85. Al Khalid came much much later.

This is another typical jingoistic view on Pakistan. Heck, ever heard about Gen Zia ul Haq? Do you know how he died? Do you know what he did before he died? I will tell you. He died in a Plane crash AFTER he had just evaluated the M1 Abrams near a city south of Islamabad. Something called Bawalpur... This was as far as back in 1988. Forget the crash. Pakistan evaluated the Abrams and decided to go for the Type-85 instead. This was half a decade before the 1998 Nuclear tests. Heck the Americans were actually desperate to sell the Abrams to Pakistan in order to cut costs. Lucky for them Egypt bought the tank.



Unfortunately yes. But I wouldn't call them fundamentalist.



BBC or Guardian reported the Challenger 2 loss in Iraq with the latest armour. Washington Post reported 80 Abrams have been sent back to the US after losses. It seems BBC, Guardian and Washington Post editors are either Russians or pro Russian fanboys. LOL.

Go tell this to the C-2 driver's family.



Good for them. But why is that related to the military? I had Chinese friends during my school years. Their grandparents fled China in order to escape persecution and they believe they are Indians. My friends and I call them "wannabe" Indians for some healthy fun. So, how is that related to militarily related to anything what an expatriate thinks? Heck a lot of NRIs think they are more American than Indian.

Heck there are jews in the north east who think they are more Israeli than Indian.



Jeez wheez. Their hardware is as good as ever, actually their hardware is even better than what it was during Soviet times. Talk about going wrong in an entire post. Heck every line had to be corrected. It's only their electronics that suffers and they make do with western imports for the same to keep up.

By 2030, Indian technology may even surpass US and China. Its a long time and the entire high echelons will be replaced by a younger generation who do not mind actually working. Heck we already have plans for an exa computing facility.

I am not a naysayer of home grown technologies, I am a supporter of the armed forces decision. There has been plenty of times when indigenous tech has been accepted and also rejected for imports. Everybody in the world does that. It is just that you need to know when to draw the line. The Arjun was far from ready. That is obviously the reason why T-90 was chosen.

T-90 is a great tank. Period.

Here's what you do not get - the M1A2 was never offered to the Pakis - they were offered the M1A1 tank, which was again stalled after Zia's death. Pakistan never "rejected" it. In the 1990s, Pakistan had wanted to get it's hands on the M1A2, but USA (Clinton administration) did not want to sell to them, possibly because the cold war was over.

Why I mentioned Russia's current talent pool is simply because - they don;t have any significant talent pool. Their best and brightest are leaving Russia in droves. The Russian social situation is bad. very bad. The "fair-skinned" India part was actually optimistic. I should say "fair-skinned" India of the 1990s - few jobs, law and order problem, too much govt control, Russian mafia, drugs - you name it, they have it. The reason their technology is still behind is because their system is broken. Neither does it have the free entrepreneurial nature of the USA, nor does it have the unlimited funding and support of the state (China style). What they are doing is still based on the inertia of the Soviet system.
Their modernization programs are still rudimentary. They have fallen behind in radars, missiles, electronics. When a Russian military publishes a set of weapon specifications, remember to take 20% off the best values, because they are trying to project confidence - that will project reality. When a western military does the same, remember to add 20% - because of official secrecy etc.
In the soviet era, both sides downgraded their potentials.

Anyway, I would let you hold onto your fanboy images of T-90. My advice though, in any other defence forum, do not mention this - you will be eviscerated. People who know far more than you or me about tanks have done detailed analysis and posted them there - and T-90 is nowhere near the current western standards. The T-95 (cancelled) would have been.

 

[p2prada]

Better get some solid links to back your claims ( UK MOD ), Otherwise stop posting low standered cheap posts, its simple degrading the forum..

How's this?

MoD kept failure of best tank quiet - Telegraph

Here's what you do not get - the M1A2 was never offered to the Pakis - they were offered the M1A1 tank, which was again stalled after Zia's death. Pakistan never "rejected" it. In the 1990s, Pakistan had wanted to get it's hands on the M1A2, but USA (Clinton administration) did not want to sell to them, possibly because the cold war was over.

The M1A2 wasn't even in production. Almost all export tanks have been upgraded to M1A2 standards. The Saudis and Kuwaitis have the M1A2 and it was on offer to the Pakistanis. You are just changing the color of your skin to match with whatever you said.

The project was never stalled, the tanks continued evaluations after Zia's death and failed trials, especially in the heat.

Why I mentioned Russia's current talent pool is simply because - they don;t have any significant talent pool. Their best and brightest are leaving Russia in droves.

The best and brightest in India also leave in droves. But DRDO or HAL do not benefit from any NRI who comes back to India. DRDO and HAL nurture home grown talent and only use them. It is the same for Russia. A lot of their civilian research is non existent, but their military hardware is matched only by a few.

Their modernization programs are still rudimentary. They have fallen behind in radars, missiles, electronics.

That has a lot to do with the Army and their budget, but with foreign funding their military industrial complex is still doing well. What they cannot develop, we buy from the west.

When a Russian military publishes a set of weapon specifications, remember to take 20% off the best values, because they are trying to project confidence - that will project reality. When a western military does the same, remember to add 20% - because of official secrecy etc.
In the soviet era, both sides downgraded their potentials.

This "-20%" thingy was a cold war report generated by the westerners once they got their hands on East German stuff. The electronics were shoddy and the hardware was also not up to the mark compared to western equivalents. Nothing to prove it is the same today especially when the Russians also use French electronics and not just the T-90. Russia has bought a lot of stuff directly from France to keep up with the west. What the Russians reported about MKI, India also reported the same about the MKI. No difference. So, does that mean we also bloat up figures. But I am sure DRDO does though. When LCA was in development, the aircraft had impressive specs, but the minute IAF got their hands on the plane, the real figures came out of the closet. Even ADA changed specs to match what IAF reported. Right from empty weight to the issues in FBW.

Anyway, I would let you hold onto your fanboy images of T-90. My advice though, in any other defence forum, do not mention this - you will be eviscerated. People who know far more than you or me about tanks have done detailed analysis and posted them there - and T-90 is nowhere near the current western standards. The T-95 (cancelled) would have been.

Ask any western doctrine MBT specialist and he will tell you the T-90s composite armour is no different than the Leo A4s armour. Their main points of contention about a western tank is not superior armour, it is superior survivability due to separated crew compartments and the 4th crewman. Superior shells is also a contention but that is moot now because the T-72 and T-90 can fire longer rods with manual loading of shells. They identify the T types low profile as a big advantage but also claim the guns lower elevation and depression is inferior and provides lesser situational awareness. So, both types have ups and downs depending on the situation the tank is in.

The T-90s armour and gun is never questioned by the western tankies. Ask them if you want to. It is only Indians who suddenly came up with excuses to claim the Generals are corrupt for choosing the T-90 and that the Arjun is the God of all tanks.

 

[binayak95]

You know why the IA bought the T90 in the first place. Because the Arjun was not available when it was needed. During the Indo-ak standoff of 2003, the IA had to face modern T80s of the Pakistanis with obsolescent T55s and T72s. The army got scared and decided to buy the T90 without further ado. So had the Arjun been delivered on schedule, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How's this?

MoD kept failure of best tank quiet - Telegraph

Telegraph ?

Its know for its BS, and incorrect defense reporting, its same as Indian Media news websites..

Besides, I read all the same as someone here posted, whats the point ?



Where CH2 was hit is not protected by multilayer laminate armor, these were protected then only by light dynamic protection ROMOR-A, now that place is protected by module of Dorchester multilayer laminate armor and problem is solved.

Places where Composite Armour was not deployed..

Here CR2 don't have special armor, prior to upgrade it was protected by ROMOR-A ERA.That was good against single warhead HEAT rounds.

Now side armour has been replaced too. The blocks look too large to be ERA, so I'd guess they're just remodelled Chobham/Dorchester blocks.designers solved the problem with Dorchester armor module.

Guess u have no clue what i posted on the first place !

 

[asianobserve]

BTW, on the tank gun side, the Brits are testing Rheinmetall's 120mm smoothbore for the Ch2.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BTW, on the tank gun side, the Brits are testing Rheinmetall's 120mm smoothbore for the Ch2.

Yup its L55, This would enable them using Nato rounds such as DM-63 and beyond..

 

[asianobserve]

With the possible adoption of the L55 for the Ch2 the Western alliance and their closest Asian partners Japan and SOKOR are wholeheartedly embracing smoothbore tank guns for their MBTs.

 

[ace009]

With the possible adoption of the L55 for the Ch2 the Western alliance and their closest Asian partners Japan and SOKOR are wholeheartedly embracing smoothbore tank guns for their MBTs.

AFAIK, Rifled guns were considered to have more accuracy than the Smootbore guns, but with the new age shells, targetting systems, that difference has gone away. The smoothbore guns have longer life and apparently can fire missiles more easily than the rifled guns, which is why most western tanks are converting to smoothbore type.
Arjun still has a rifled gun though, T-90 has a smoothbore.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AFAIK, Rifled guns were considered to have more accuracy than the Smootbore guns, but with the new age shells, targetting systems, that difference has gone away. The smoothbore guns have longer life and apparently can fire missiles more easily than the rifled guns, which is why most western tanks are converting to smoothbore type.
Arjun still has a rifled gun though, T-90 has a smoothbore.

'As long as the shells hit the target dead on !'

Though i believe IA would prefer smooth-bore for good, if not the above is the mentality..

 

[asianobserve]

APDS rounds are fired more efficiently from smoothbore tank guns. In rifled guns the rifling diminishes the velocity of the apds round. Of course smoothbore guns can fire missiles.

 

[p2prada]

Where CH2 was hit is not protected by multilayer laminate armor, these were protected then only by light dynamic protection ROMOR-A, now that place is protected by module of Dorchester multilayer laminate armor and problem is solved.

Guess u have no clue what i posted on the first place !

Check again. All the Challenger IIs in 2006 in Iraq were equipped with Dorchester as well as the new ERA.

The Challenger 2 being penetrated in 2006 is well known. Heck telegraph quoted defence officials and there is a picture of the injured driver as well. It is not just some random article from rupee news. There are plenty of articles and forum news about Challenger 2 being penetrated through the armour. Some think it was Iranian supplied RPG-29s.

 

[p2prada]

The Abrams may get the L55 upgrade as well or even their homegrown XM-360.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Check again. All the Challenger IIs in 2006 in Iraq were equipped with Dorchester as well as the new ERA.

Where CH2 was hit is not protected by multilayer laminate armor, these were protected then only by light dynamic protection ROMOR-A, now that place is protected by module of Dorchester multilayer laminate armor and problem is solved.

Places where Composite Armour was not deployed..

Here CR2 don't have special armor, prior to upgrade it was protected by ROMOR-A ERA.That was good against single warhead HEAT rounds.

Now side armour has been replaced too. The blocks look too large to be ERA, so I'd guess they're just remodelled Chobham/Dorchester blocks.designers solved the problem with Dorchester armor module.

As i said before you have no clue what i posted before..

 

[pack leader]

BTW kunal this is rafeal add on era and nor dorchester armor :
Rafael's Armor Protection Systems - YouTube

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Detailed:

Side new bolt on armor package is made in cooperation by British and Israel company's. on armor over the skirts are Dorchester modules and Israeli NERA or ERA. And of course slat armor over rear side hull and turret and rear of hull and turret + some anti IED/Mine addon armor for hull's belly.

antennas are to disrupt radio sygnals for IED's.

BTW kunal this is rafeal add on era and nor dorchester armor :
Rafael's Armor Protection Systems - YouTube

 

[p2prada]

Detailed:

The picture with the tank in black actually shows Rafaels's ERA package sold to Britain and not the Dorchester module. Rafael's armour was chosen after the new British ERA failed to perform.

Dorchester modules are not removable and are ceramic composites. This means removing them will expose the chassis. It is the same as the Kanchan inserts. They are neither ERA nor NERA that can be removed at whim. The only thing that can remove the Dorchester is an enemy shell or missile.

Also all Challenger 2's in existence today have the Dorchester armour fitted on them. So, there was no upgrade on the old Challenger 1s. The Dorchester is an upgrade on the Chobam and that's well known. The RPG did penetrate the Dorchester armour under the ERA.

Imagine the Arjun Mk1 in the same situation and that without the ERA as well.

Comparatively the T-90 in all probability has better protection in the frontal 60deg arc than the Challenger 2(without ERA) because of the addition of a proven ERA module. Even the best western analysts believe the T-90 should offer a 800mm RHA protection in the front without the ERA, similar to any other tank in the world built at the same time as the T-90, like the Challenger-2 without the Rafael Urban upgrade kit or even the Leo A4.

It is a major misconception that the T-90 has weak armour. The design of the T-90 turret by itself is superior to most of these tanks anyway which increases protection.

 

[Blood+]

The picture with the tank in black actually shows Rafaels's ERA package sold to Britain and not the Dorchester module. Rafael's armour was chosen after the new British ERA failed to perform.

Dorchester modules are not removable and are ceramic composites. This means removing them will expose the chassis. It is the same as the Kanchan inserts. They are neither ERA nor NERA that can be removed at whim. The only thing that can remove the Dorchester is an enemy shell or missile.

Also all Challenger 2's in existence today have the Dorchester armour fitted on them. So, there was no upgrade on the old Challenger 1s. The Dorchester is an upgrade on the Chobam and that's well known. The RPG did penetrate the Dorchester armour under the ERA.

Imagine the Arjun Mk1 in the same situation and that without the ERA as well.

Comparatively the T-90 in all probability has better protection in the frontal 60deg arc than the Challenger 2(without ERA) because of the addition of a proven ERA module. Even the best western analysts believe the T-90 should offer a 800mm RHA protection in the front without the ERA, similar to any other tank in the world built at the same time as the T-90, like the Challenger-2 without the Rafael Urban upgrade kit or even the Leo A4.

It is a major misconception that the T-90 has weak armour. The design of the T-90 turret by itself is superior to most of these tanks anyway which increases protection.

That is just a baseless claim by you as usal.T90 has armor of 800mm RHA and that's too without ERA!!Seriously!! What are you smoking these days??I would take Mr Ajay Shukla's words any day who was a tanker himself than a keyboard general like you.He had stated about the weak armor of T90 tanksINbroadsword.Even the manufacturers don't claime 800mm armor thickness without ERA.According to them the frontal turret armor of T90 is equivalent to 550mm rha without the Kontact 5 at 2000 meter against TuC FSAPDS rounds with the ERA providing additional 300mm of protection.I have not seen such a shameles liar like you in my whole life.You are even worse than the Prasun K Sengupta.

 

[p2prada]

That is just a baseless claim by you as usal.T90 has armor of 800mm RHA and that's too without ERA!!Seriously!! What are you smoking these days??I would take Mr Ajay Shukla's words any day who was a tanker himself than a keyboard general like you.He had stated about the weak armor of T90 tanksINbroadsword.Even the manufacturers don't claime 800mm armor thickness without ERA.According to them the frontal turret armor of T90 is equivalent to 550mm rha without the Kontact 5 at 2000 meter against TuC FSAPDS rounds with the ERA providing additional 300mm of protection.I have not seen such a shameles liar like you in my whole life.You are even worse than the Prasun K Sengupta.

You quote a guy who quotes Prasun Sengupta when it comes to tanks and then you claim he has experience on tanks and he claims something about something which he has not even seen in service during his tenure. Then you come back saying I am a liar.

I am a liar only because I support the T-90 induction. Everything else is just a lie. War heroes are instantly turned into villains because they reject the Arjun. Even Prasun becomes a celebrity compared to the evil p2prada. Why because at least that bumbling guy is supportive of Arjun induction as compared to the arm chair general p2prada.

Let me tell you something funny. Almost every single weapons systems developer in the world today is an arm chair general. Right from DRDO's chief to the janitor. Right from the top most ranking developer in Raytheon or Rafael to the last guy opening and closing the gates at night. Everybody is an arm chair general.

To get some facts straight, DRDO does not hire anybody above the age of 32 in the position of a scientist. Hardly one or two a year move into DRDO from the services after a SSC. So, get that in your head. There are a lot of arm chair generals in the world who actually know more than in service people when it comes to technology. The air force technical officers will actually know more about the aircraft than the people flying in them.

Coming to the point. The figure you rattled off in all your glory is actually the old T-72BMs figures. Heck the Pakistani T-84s claim a better figure of over 700mm RHA. The T-72BM or even the T-90 have the older version of the STEF. The newer versions that came in the T-90Vladimir or the T-90A and consequently the export T-90S are superior. Even the 1978 made T-80 tanks claim 400-500mm while the T-80U made in 1984 claims a bit higher.

The T-90A stopped the Konkurs missile without ERA in tests. It has a penetration of 650mm. So, it is obvious the armour rating is higher than the best T-72. Then the Kornet ATGM was fired on the T-90. It has a penetration of 850mm. Out of 5 missiles fired only 1 managed to get through the armour. The tank did not have the ERA when the Kornet penetrated.

Now the T-90s current armour has no STEF but the Kanchan inserts between the steel inserts. It is of the same size as the one that is going into Arjun. So, expect the T-90 and Arjun to have similar frontal protection without ERA. The end result is the same.

In conclusion the actual figures of the T-90A or T-90S haven't been revealed to anybody. There are not even manufacturers claims to prove it.