Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

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With this I agree, however this leading position will be maintained only as long as other nations will not build their own analogs.

We should remember that "Armata" will be catalyst and reason to develop more of such next generation tanks.
 

arkem8

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

...............
Damian can you put in some insight on the Leclerc Autoloader. AFAIK it is like the AMX-13, no?? Very little information is present on this elusive tank.

Also can you give approval/disapproval on this video

 
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Damian

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Damian can you put in some insight on the Leclerc Autoloader. AFAIK it is like the AMX-13, no?? Very little information is present on this elusive tank.
No, AMX-13 autoloader was very primitive, actually it was not autoloader in a modern sense of this word, but more a semi automatic loading system. Leclerc use much more modern design.

Also can you give approval/disapproval on this video
It is a widely known fact that a early Leclerc variants were... well very capricious. In fact during tests in Sweden Leclerc was seen by Swedes as not mature design compared to M1A2 or Leopard 2A5.

I heard from one well informed person that software in early Leclerc's was also not very user friendly and led to some strange behaviors of vehicle. The main problem was a software part with sensors responsible for engine air cleaners, it was just too sensitive, so even if some dust that was not dangerous get in to engine through air cleaners, sensors just raised the alarm and to prevent damage, computer system was disabling engine.

There were also some other stories... I remember one, but not very detailed that there were some wounded when tank go... well sort out of control.

But this is normal for any new design that needs all teething problems to be sorted out. Currently all buggy Serie 1 tanks are not in service, replaced with mature Serie 2 and most modern Serie 3 vel Serie XXI.

PS. However on your place I would not get too much attention to such silly, naive and innacurate TV shows. I know that one of Leclerc designers written a book about it's development and early service, however it seems to be only in French and I forgot it's title.
 

militarysta

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Another interesting articile how Soviets image M1 armour protection:

andrei_bt - ИЗМЕНЕНИЕ ПЛАНОВ АМЕРИКАНСКОГО ТАНКОСТРОЕНИЯ

And again that what we know about Burlighton armour is in discrepancies in data in article:
M1A1IP whit 580-600mm vs KE means that protection agains HEAT will be no lowr then 1 to 1.36 so - 790-816mm vs HEAT not like in this article 650-700mm. It's intersting how in those 3 inner buletin values against APFSDS are guite good:

M1 (1980-1983) 450-470mm vs APFSDS (600-650mm vs HEAT)
M1A1IP 580-600mm vs APFSDS
next 700-720mm vs APFSDS
M1A2 as I understand in 1997 - 700-780mm etc.

But against HEAT understimanted. Values against HEAT are to low, and in discrepancies even whit ely burlinghton from 1970-1978.
The lowest relatio between armour perotection vs KE and vs CE was 1:1:36, but avible where even 1:2.09 so those values agains CE in those articles are to low.
 

Damian

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M1A1IP is someones fantasy. Such tank never existed.

The known variants of the M1 series are:
M1, M1IP, M1A1, M1A1HA, M1A1HC, M1A1D, M1A1AIM, M1A1SA, M1A1FEP, M1A2, M1A2SEP v1, M1A2SEP v2 + different tests beds, prototypes, technology demonstrators.

Besides this it seems to be some document or article from 1980's, Soviets didn't know too much about Burlington, neither about newer armor that was in development probably from 1985/1986 to 1988, well somewhere in that period. So it is interesting from historic point of view, but very far from truth, and is merely speculation.
 
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arkem8

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

No, AMX-13 autoloader was very primitive, actually it was not autoloader in a modern sense of this word, but more a semi automatic loading system. Leclerc use much more modern design.
Any more data/ specifics on the autoloader design, 3-man crew layout etc?? It is a very unique tank...
 

Damian

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Any more data/ specifics on the autoloader design, 3-man crew layout etc?? It is a very unique tank...
You mean AMX-13 or Leclerc? In both tanks there is nothing unique.

In case of Leclerc, the autoloader design is a typical western solution for turret rear bustle. It can be called "chain ammo cassetess autoloader design".

While in case of AMX-13 the semi automatic loading system is made from two ammunition drums in the oscilating turret bustle. The first round needs to be loaded manually in to the gun breach, while after each shot, the semi automatic system based on some sort of springs load next projectile.

Leclerc autoloader:




Leclerc autoloader have a capacity of 22 rounds only. The most nations like Ukraine, South Korea, Japan and probably to some point also Russia, used French autoloader as a base for their own designs.

Americans developed a similiar autoloader, it was developed by Meggitt company but compared to French desing and designs based on it, the American autoloader is a high capacity autoloader for 34 rounds in a version that can be installed in standard M1 tanks series turret.




AMX-13 smei automatic loading system:


 

hest

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But against HEAT understimanted. Values against HEAT are to low, and in discrepancies even whit ely burlinghton from 1970-1978.
The lowest relatio between armour perotection vs KE and vs CE was 1:1:36, but avible where even 1:2.09 so those values agains CE in those articles are to low.
It's not correct to use same values for different contexts.

Increase in KE protection does not have to imply a proportionate increase in CE, especially relating to composite armour.

It's not like Soviets were unaware, in 80s they used not only steel, but composite armour to test APFSDS, for example to represent Abrams armour was used imitator, composite block P-11 of NII Stali.
 

arkem8

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

You mean AMX-13 or Leclerc? In both tanks there is nothing unique.

In case of Leclerc, the autoloader design is a typical western solution for turret rear bustle. It can be called "chain ammo cassetess autoloader design".
Thanks, I theorized that it would be a cassette-less sprocket type magazine. Certainly not the Soviet carousel type in the bottom of the hull.

That might be more mechanically practical and simple considering the distance to the breech and the arrangement of blow-out panels just above them.
 

Damian

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

It is simpler design yes. However no blow off panels in AMX-13. These were first used in M1 and Leopard 2, French were experimenting with these in AMX-40 and used them as well for bustle in Leclerc, several other designs also have blow off panels, but not for all ammunition storage like in M1 series.
 

Damian

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It's not correct to use same values for different contexts.

Increase in KE protection does not have to imply a proportionate increase in CE, especially relating to composite armour.

It's not like Soviets were unaware, in 80s they used not only steel, but composite armour to test APFSDS, for example to represent Abrams armour was used imitator, composite block P-11 of NII Stali.
You are missing the point here.

Soviets were unaware of the Burlington design, unaware of used materials. Besides this west spread a disinformation about the armor design. So the NII Stali engineers used most probably as a reference their own composite armors designs and a wide spread disinformations which were different to the real Burlington.

The wider knowledge about Burlington is recent, because more accurate informations about it become avaiable for wider public in XXI century.
 
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hest

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It wasn't any sort of super material. Even if structure was not known in exact detail, knowledge on the field was close to make general approximations.

For the matter of estimations, Soviet composite armour imitators used for test of projectiles in 80s had better characteristics than early Burlington which was disclosed and which your friend uses as reference.
 
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Damian

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It is not as it was a sort of super material. Even if not structure was not known in exact detail, knowledge on the field was close to make general approximations.
Burlington was not super material, but was different to soviet designs. Theoretical knowledge is never enough to make even a good approximitations.

For example west was not very positive for making simple estimations for Soviet tanks, this is why BRIXMIS stole complete documentation of T-64A tank armor.

For the matter of estimations, Soviet composite armour imitators used for test of projectiles in 80s had better characteristics than early Burlington which was disclosed and which your friend uses as reference.
It is completely normal that experimental armor array designed in 1980's was better than experimental armor array designed in 1960-1970's. But You forget that in the M1 series Americans not used the Burlington from 1960-1970's period tested in UK, but their own altered configurations, these were represented most probably by Ballistic Research Laboratory test configurations known as BRL-1 for M1, and BRL-2 for M1IP/M1A1.

The funny thing here is what we know is about the early experimental arrays designed in UK, designed under Burlington program, but we do not know anything about American versions designed under Starflow program besides that Ballistic Research Laboratory tested two arrays known as BRL-1 and BRL-2, mentioned above.

What I find is that knowledge about western composite armors research and development history, as well as their versions, applications etc. is not very well known in Soviet Union and currently Russia, and most descriptions are nothing more than the same disinformation spread by official sources and copied by writers like Steven Zaloga and similiar authors.

Also it seems that in ex soviet states, the problem is that people do not understand that in reality Burlington is only codename to the research and development program but for ease and short used also for armor. However under that program, there were at least several different configurations designed with different design, different protection against KE and CE, and also that we do not know to which configuration, unclassified documents reffers to, neither we know anything about which configuration was used in the end, what and how many alterations were inducted in to the original design, and there are many more unknows.

Burlington program is one of the more mysterious armor development programs in the history of modern warfare, still highly classified. Making any conclusions, especially negative about it basing on some assumptions, and tests of test armor configurations based on disinformation, and on materials probably never used in Burlington (not all of them) is plainly wrong.

Especially that soviets most probably used as a reference the known and probably most widespread and disinformed description of Burlington as a "multilayered armor with layers of ceramic and non metallic materials encased between steel plates in a honeycomb structure", which might be completely false or might be a used reference to one of non used test configurations.

This is funny from historic point of view when we consider the safety messures of NATO and Soviet Union, in theory NATO states as more open to the public should reveal more about their own armor developments, while in reality, a more militarized and secretive soviet union, have much better documented it's own special armors research and development for wider public knowledge.
 
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militarysta

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Such armour is denominated semi-active, which works on known principle, useing energy of projectile to counter it.
Yes, and no. Yes, becouse indeed the whole idea was as you said, but no, becuse uniqe Burlinghotn mehanism is based on those 3 mehanism working in the same time. In rest known armour: reflecting plate, simple NERA (or rather bulging armour) there is no sucht coordination between mehanism. And most mehanism work together in no linear way -so it not like 15% + 15% =30% but rather 15%+15%=50% etc.

- To exploit semi-active effect, elements must be placed with space between them (this is characteristic of every such armour, including Burlington), this makes armour structure less dense, lighter overall, while effect achieved overmatches homogeneous steel of same volume against cumulative jet.
Yes, but only for first part of Burlinghton style armour - when most semi-active layers are placed. You can see this on Leopard-2A4 layout and M1A2. Layers closer to backplate are without spaces. In fact only first 60-75% armour LOS had layout whit something like sandwich. Rest is mady by kevlar/armaid/cermics, and HHS, THS, etc plates. And some kind of polymer/absorber.

- As main protection of semi-reactive structure in general is provided by destabilising effect, given that it is much more difficult to achieve with limited energy against modern APFSDS, it is not a point in favour. Since structure of such armour, with spaced elements is less dense, passive protection would be significantly weaker, less than steel in volume, thickness, while semi-active effect does not compensate.
First - 4mm HHS plate whit HB close to 600-660 act like 12mm RHA plate whit HB close to 200. So what is more dense - 220mm cast steel whit HB close to 220-240 or stack thin plates whit whole LOS 80mm (2x4mm in 10 structure plates modules) whit HB close to 600HB?
Do You consider that question? And even simple stack RHA plates whit the same thickness and HB have about 20% bigger protection then RHA monoblock whit the same thickness and HB:







IMHO stack thin HHS plates whit very hight HB can act like almous 3x bigger cast steel whit low HB. And always stack of plates whill be better then steel monoblock whit the same thickness and HB scale.

Second - why You are so sure that "semi-active effect does not compensate" Hmm?
As I mentioned -on test LKEI was not able to perforate 40mm HHS + 50cm "special armour"+40mm HHS +40mm HHS so LOS 620mm only doubtfull question is how big on 2000m perforation has DM43 (it's between 560 and 620mm RHA). So it's first doubt.
Second is based on known NERA performance. Burlinghton is less reactive but more sophisticaded. And NERA performaces are better then psyhical thickness against both: APFSDS and HEAT.
On test double german NERA whit LOS (at angle 45 degree) 40mm + space 71mm + 40mm (whole 151mm) was able to stop HEAT whit 950mm RHA perforation... as I remember simmilar combination NERA can reduce APFSDS at about 25-40% so no metter what APFSDS -value against KE will be bgger then steel plate at the same LOS thickness (151mm). The only doubt is that NERA is not Burlinghton. But Burlinghton works whit three mehanism in the same time, NERA-not.
So on what actually is based You statsment that semi-active effect does not compensate?


In your article (from late 70s) are described several effects and values against APFSDS rounds. Now that can no longer be achieved. Semi-active effect could have been enought, but to destabilise, bend a projectile from 70s, and a modern one, are two very different things.
In discussion I'd preffer base on known test, documents, and other -so I gave example about known test erly Burlinghton.
And if You want consider about modern and older rounds. Soviets rounds have tungsten slug inisde (BM-22 -BM26) and partial structure - very vulnerable on active or semi-active armour. BM42 had interesting dual core structure - in theory developed to overcome bulinghton style armour, but in fact it was "dead end" becouse modern Soviet/Russina round are monoblock.
But in the same time on DE and USA there where monoblock APFSDS round whit small L:D ratio. Ant those kind of penetrator are less vulnerable against semi-active armour then whit partial structure (BM22 BM26) or bigger L:D ratio.
And rememeber that Burlinghton style armour in 1978 just must had smaller performance then in 1985 example.


What were the conditions ?
I mentioned it erylier.

It is known that side armour is of semi-active structure, but this is only guess based on the assumption that it is same as turret or hull module, which is not likely. Photos do not show what deal of visible volume is composed by armour.
Vell photos shown quite good what is M1A1 turret sides structure. And we known layout for Leo2A4.

Given some known facts, it is not equivalent.
IMHO due to active layers is quite close. And it's better then cast steel.

Modern Leopard 2 incorporates additional armour on turret side to meet modern protection requirement of about 40-45 degrees from turret front.
But NERA armour in Leopard2A5-A6 was developed between 1988-1993 to protect against future Soviet APFSDS and ATGM's. Propaby even 140mm. And others thread including cal. 152mm.

Abrams, whatever the actual armour thickness (effective, not visual), its equivalence is well under 500 mm against cumulative jet for modern version, now incorporating ERA, being against APFSDS about 200 mm.
What?? If You said about M1A1 or M1A2 then turret sides at 90. was avaible to perforate by HEAT warhed whit perforation bigger then 550mm RHA so for 90. it's will be against APFSDS like 400mm RHA (1:1,36) or better becouse ratio for 1978 must be worse then for 2004...


OK, but if you base your idea about Burlington protection on effectiveness against 70s projectiles, I can base ERA effect against old APFSDS which are destroyed in pieces, but it does not apply to modern projectiles.
But in the same time I gave known examples when after 1990 Burlinghton armour was able to stop:
AGM-114 (more then 1100mm RHA HEAT) on M1A1
DM43 (560-620mm RHA APFSDS) on Leopard-2A4 late armour
M829A2 (720mm RHA and more APFSDS) (CR2 IraqFreedom)
CLM322 (650mm RHA APFDS) (Leopard-2A6 nacked turret for Greece)
etc

As long as it is semi-reactive effect, you'll need working space. Any such armour is inherently less dense than same volume of steel.
As I said - less dense armour not means lower protection against APFSDS. Becouse it can use higer in HB scale HHS plates, THS plates, ore just semi-active mahanism can give better protection then pasive armour.
 

hest

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Burlington was not super material, but was different to soviet designs. Theoretical knowledge is never enough to make even a good approximitations.

For example west was not very positive for making simple estimations for Soviet tanks, this is why BRIXMIS stole complete documentation of T-64A tank armor.
Not exact, but a certain margin can be perfectly known to specialists.


It is completely normal that experimental armor array designed in 1980's was better than experimental armor array designed in 1960-1970's. But You forget that in the M1 series Americans not used the Burlington from 1960-1970's period tested in UK, but their own altered configurations, these were represented most probably by Ballistic Research Laboratory test configurations known as BRL-1 for M1, and BRL-2 for M1IP/M1A1.

The funny thing here is what we know is about the early experimental arrays designed in UK, designed under Burlington program, but we do not know anything about American versions designed under Starflow program besides that Ballistic Research Laboratory tested two arrays known as BRL-1 and BRL-2, mentioned above.

What I find is that knowledge about western composite armors research and development history, as well as their versions, applications etc. is not very well known in Soviet Union and currently Russia, and most descriptions are nothing more than the same disinformation spread by official sources and copied by writers like Steven Zaloga and similiar authors.
Of course armour structure of late 70s and it's values against projectiles of that time are not representative of more modern developements, thus I stated to Militarysta that it is not correct to discuss estimations made in different context, on base of old values.

And while structure in exact detail maybe wasn't known, it does not mean it was completely out of understanding of Soviet researchers who where aware of developements on the field, and whose level was equivalent, also with some obtained intelligence...
 

militarysta

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For the matter of estimations, Soviet composite armour imitators used for test of projectiles in 80s had better characteristics than early Burlington which was disclosed and which your friend uses as reference.
Lidksy, is pure fantasy for one obvious reson:
1) T-72B had armour primitive in compare to Burlinghton (1985)
2) T-80U (1986) had mucht less spohisticated armour then kown Burlinghton
etc
In fact all know and tested on west ex-Soviet tank armour where much less spohisticated (even primitive) in compare to the Burlinghton. And You had to wrote about " better characteristics"?! WTF?! This staytsment is base on what? Have you any performances those "composite armour imitators"?!
And You claim that it had "better characteristics" then "erly Burlinghton". From 1965? Maybe. From 1978? rather not.
In fact Soviet military complex until 90s. shown nothing even compare to the Burlinghton. Just pasive or simple* semi-active armour + ERA.

*in fact in late T-80U armour ther was smth.diffrent then polymer cells - more spohisticated.
 
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Damian

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Not exact, but a certain margin can be perfectly known to specialists.
It can't, this is why USA and UK have so big determination to obtain any complete documentation or even whole vehicles for tests.

I gave You known in the west examples of such successfull missions. In 1960-1970's British intelligence mission BRIXMIS broke in in to one of huge soviet bases in east germany, they are able to make exterior and interior photos of T-64A tanks, made messurements of tanks and they even obtained manuals and complete documentation with vehicle armor details.

In late 1980's to 1990's UK obtains complete T-80U, currently it is stored somewhere in USA. There were many more examples, and this gives a reason to make very important question, how good was OPSEC in soviet union, it seems that OPSEC for military technology was poor, especially in the end of the cold war period.

Soviet Union never obtained any detailed informations about Burlington (as russian language sources says) neither complete vehicle for tests.

Of course armour structure of late 70s and it's values against projectiles of that time are not representative of more modern developements, thus I stated to Militarysta that it is not correct to discuss estimations made in different context, on base of old values.

And while structure in exact detail maybe wasn't known, it does not mean it was completely out of understanding of Soviet researchers who where aware of developements on the field, and whose level was equivalent, also with some obtained intelligence...
1) We can partially agree on that, but Your statement that western composite armors are inferior to soviet, russian developments is just unfounded.

2) Soviet researchers as I said based their knowledge on disinformation, it seems that intelligence obtained by soviets was also pure disinformation.

Ok I propose a consensus here, to end this debate.

Both solutions soviet and NATO gives more or less comparable (similiar) protection against KE and CE threats for the vehicle 60 degrees frontal arc, but achieved by different means. And we should stop at this, mainly because of limited data, secondly because both sides were determined to achieve as good protection as possible against both threats.

This is the most resonable, and diplomatic solution I can see, especially because reasons mentioned above and I think it will satisfy both sides, do You agree?

*in fact in late T-80U armour ther was smth.diffrent then polymer cells - more spohisticated.
You mean so called "Cermetal" package instead of "Cellural castings with polymer filler" package?
 
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militarysta

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Especially that soviets most probably used as a reference the known and probably most widespread and disinformed description of Burlington as a "multilayered armor with layers of ceramic and non metallic materials encased between steel plates in a honeycomb structure", which might be completely false or might be a used reference to one of non used test configurations.
He he he have You seen any "oneycomb structure" in known M1A1 Merkava Mk.IV or Leopard-2A4 layout? I no ;-)

Btw: "greate russian sources" ex: vladimir page claim that Leopard-2A4 mask is steel monoblock. Sweet is't it?
And there wher more funny claims like that.
 

Damian

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He he he have You seen any "oneycomb structure" in known M1A1 Merkava Mk.IV or Leopard-2A4 layout? I no ;-)
No, neither besides Leopard 2, I didn't saw a complete armor package, only fragments of outerlayers, so I do not want to speculate here about them, besides the known declassified documents, which might not shown the final configuration adopted in late 1970's and later from 1980 to 1985, which was later from 1988 being slowly phased out and replaced with newer composite armors.

Btw: "greate russian sources" ex: vladimir page claim that Leopard-2A4 mask is steel monoblock. Sweet is't it?
And there wher more funny claims like that.
As I said, these are mostly guesses or "knowledge" based on disinformation, however it can be understood, even in the west the real, deep knowledge about these armors is a sweet mystery of each goverment, nobody really wants to spread detailed infromations about Burlington.

Well the British wanted to sold Burlington to anyone who had enough money in the 1970's but Americans were so outraged that or they reversed Burlington design on their own as Przezdziecki claimed in his article, or they forced British to perhaps develop altered, export version... of course in the end Burlington for a long time (untill 1990's) was not exported outside NATO.
 

hest

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Yes, and no. Yes, becouse indeed the whole idea was as you said, but no, becuse uniqe Burlinghotn mehanism is based on those 3 mehanism working in the same time. In rest known armour: reflecting plate, simple NERA (or rather bulging armour) there is no sucht coordination between mehanism. And most mehanism work together in no linear way -so it not like 15% + 15% =30% but rather 15%+15%=50% etc.
Yes, but why do you think that such mechanism will work with such effectiveness against more modern projectiles ? Fact is that situation with projectiles of 70s was completely different, they were more subject to destabilisation, deformations, so it just cannot serve for making estimations.

It may be the case that many secondary effects of interaction are innefective, or even not achievable against modern APFSDS.

In fact these estimations were made already by specialists, having in account modern rounds, most modern composite armour based on principle of using energy of projectile, will not surpass equivalence with RHA in thickness, potential of semi-reactive principle is more limited than perforation growth of projectiles and their improved design.

Yes, but only for first part of Burlinghton style armour - when most semi-active layers are placed. You can see this on Leopard-2A4 layout and M1A2. Layers closer to backplate are without spaces. In fact only first 60-75% armour LOS had layout whit something like sandwich. Rest is mady by kevlar/armaid/cermics, and HHS, THS, etc plates. And some kind of polymer/absorber.
Base of composite block is mostly layer configuration, as you showed for example for hull armour, constituted 500 mm of 600-650 max.

First - 4mm HHS plate whit HB close to 600-660 act like 12mm RHA plate whit HB close to 200. So what is more dense - 220mm cast steel whit HB close to 220-240 or stack thin plates whit whole LOS 80mm (2x4mm in 10 structure plates modules) whit HB close to 600HB?
Do You consider that question? And even simple stack RHA plates whit the same thickness and HB have about 20% bigger protection then RHA monoblock whit the same thickness and HB:







IMHO stack thin HHS plates whit very hight HB can act like almous 3x bigger cast steel whit low HB. And always stack of plates whill be better then steel monoblock whit the same thickness and HB scale.
This is simple example of steel plates and self forming projectile. Yes, steel hardness and space makes difference, but you should consider that composite armour is not based mostly of steel, it is lighter and there is significant space between layers, with usage of less dense material among others to achieve semi-reactive effect mainly against CE, so in fact, given

- Composition based on spaced layers
- Relation of steel to weight

Without account of semi-reactive effect (that is destabilisation of round, etc), passive protection equivalence is lower than RHA of same thickness. Account of semi-reactive effect, given it is more limited in performance against modern APFSDS, will not compensate to the point of equivalence, less to surpass it (surpass is needed to achieve protection given thickness limitation, 600-650 mm of hull armour), which is just not probable. And layered composition makes about 500 mm...

Second - why You are so sure that "semi-active effect does not compensate" Hmm?
As I mentioned -on test LKEI was not able to perforate 40mm HHS + 50cm "special armour"+40mm HHS +40mm HHS so LOS 620mm only doubtfull question is how big on 2000m perforation has DM43 (it's between 560 and 620mm RHA). So it's first doubt.
Second is based on known NERA performance. Burlinghton is less reactive but more sophisticaded. And NERA performaces are better then psyhical thickness against both: APFSDS and HEAT.
On test double german NERA whit LOS (at angle 45 degree) 40mm + space 71mm + 40mm (whole 151mm) was able to stop HEAT whit 950mm RHA perforation... as I remember simmilar combination NERA can reduce APFSDS at about 25-40% so no metter what APFSDS -value against KE will be bgger then steel plate at the same LOS thickness (151mm). The only doubt is that NERA is not Burlinghton. But Burlinghton works whit three mehanism in the same time, NERA-not.
So on what actually is based You statsment that semi-active effect does not compensate?
Those examples do not serve to explain how composite armour in thickness can be equivalent to RHA against APFSDS.

It is aknowledged that semi-reactive effect (NERA) is limited in growth, and not sufficient to cause significant damage and destabilisation to modern projectile.

In discussion I'd preffer base on known test, documents, and other -so I gave example about known test erly Burlinghton.
And if You want consider about modern and older rounds. Soviets rounds have tungsten slug inisde (BM-22 -BM26) and partial structure - very vulnerable on active or semi-active armour. BM42 had interesting dual core structure - in theory developed to overcome bulinghton style armour, but in fact it was "dead end" becouse modern Soviet/Russina round are monoblock.
But in the same time on DE and USA there where monoblock APFSDS round whit small L:D ratio. Ant those kind of penetrator are less vulnerable against semi-active armour then whit partial structure (BM22 BM26) or bigger L:D ratio.
And rememeber that Burlinghton style armour in 1978 just must had smaller performance then in 1985 example.
Yes, but it is just not representative, effect on old projectiles, and it is not valid as reference at all.

Soviet APFSDS were tested against composite block, better in characteristics than armour with effects which you describe, comparable to actual armour. So they considered semi-reactive effect Western structure, thus it will be less effective. And I would not talk about structure of modern Russian projectiles.

Increase in lenght and decrease in diameter in generall will lead to better performance against steel, but of course it would be more vulnerable to semi-reactive or reactive effect, bending, etc. So they are designed with compromises to achieve optimal performance, more complicated.

Vell photos shown quite good what is M1A1 turret sides structure. And we known layout for Leo2A4.
Important is usage of volume by armour, it may be, most likely spaced configuration not fully effective if we take as reference visible thickness.

IMHO due to active layers is quite close. And it's better then cast steel.
It will be less effective than steel of same thickness against APFSDS.

But NERA armour in Leopard2A5-A6 was developed between 1988-1993 to protect against future Soviet APFSDS and ATGM's. Propaby even 140mm. And others thread including cal. 152mm.
This is rather funny statement. And Kontakt-V will protect against rail-gun projectiles :)

Seriously, it was added to increase protection against growing performance of 125 mm APFSDS and ATGM.

What?? If You said about M1A1 or M1A2 then turret sides at 90. was avaible to perforate by HEAT warhed whit perforation bigger then 550mm RHA so for 90. it's will be against APFSDS like 400mm RHA (1:1,36) or better becouse ratio for 1978 must be worse then for 2004...
First, forget about ratio of 70s armour and projectiles because it is not valid.

Second, is that protection equivalence is known. It was showed with combat experience. On it's upgrade participated several companies, including NII Stali, to provide side turret protection against 500 mm perforation warheads, while they finally added simple ERA. Given CE equivalence to 400-500 mm and that it is composed mostly by layers, KE protection corresponds with stated value of more than 200 mm from normal.

But in the same time I gave known examples when after 1990 Burlinghton armour was able to stop:
AGM-114 (more then 1100mm RHA HEAT) on M1A1
DM43 (560-620mm RHA APFSDS) on Leopard-2A4 late armour
M829A2 (720mm RHA and more APFSDS) (CR2 IraqFreedom)
CLM322 (650mm RHA APFDS) (Leopard-2A6 nacked turret for Greece)
etc
Here are two types of examples, those which are speculation, and those which do not answer to statement, that composite armour does not reach equivalence with RHA in thickness against KE.
 

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