Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
Situation is, modern composite armour is more efficient than steel against cumulative jet, but does not surpass thickness equivalence of steel.
Well may I recommend you something?
Please go and read given sources about Burlinghton becouse it's nonsens. You had wrote somthing about *composite armour withoud knowledges about subject. Please wrote by google translator this two articles about Burlinghton (you cand find them erlier here).

*If you understend "somposite armour" like soviet simple reflecting plates in T-72B or polymer celss in T-80U then maybe yes, but those sentense was nonsens about Burlinghon style armour.

Burlinghton armour for 1969/1970 was 2-3 times better against HEAT and have similar value (1) agianst APFSDS like RHA monoblock whit the same mass (weight). But Buringhton whit configuratin from about 1978 was 1,5 times better against APFSDS and 3 times better against HEAT then RHA steel at the same weight (mass).
So this what you wrote is not relevant about Burlington armour.

In fact from your measure of T-90 it is seen medium value between 0 and 30 degrees between 700 and 900 mm (rough equivalence with RHA against APFSDS).
WHAT?
"medim value" for 0. will be between 680 and 880mm LOS
medim value for 30. is constans: 650mm LOS.
 

Akim

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10,353
Likes
8,645
Country flag
Noone ERA can "adds" some RHA values. It's bullshit. ERA reduce APFSDS perforation for some % and it's depend on many factors: type of the ERA, ERA angle on /before main armour, type of penetrator (diameter, material, velocity, hit angle etc). "Adds" some RHA value is bullshit usefull for game maykers when game engine can't count ERA in game.
ЕRА really diminishes influence of APFSDS. They are approximately equal to that Lidsky M said.D. But also you are right, all depends on the corner of hit.
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
Give me sources, becouse most of values was given for turret front, not hull.
Mikhail Rastopshin (worked at NII Stali)

T-72B 1985- 450 mm
T-80U- 500 mm

Corresponds with figure of Nii Stali of 480 mm, and given by Tarasenko.

For turret:

T-72B 1985- 550-600 mm

in article written by person working in 38 Nii (armour test and developement, Kubinka).

For T-72B figure for hull is higher since 1987-89 when it was composed with semi-reactive armour.

Corresponds with protection increase of Relikt, 250 mm for hull of T-72B, more than 700 mm, and stated protection against M829A2.

It's obvious.
Not so obvious for you because you apply wrong calculations without having in account armour composition.

Noone ERA can "adds" some RHA values. It's bullshit. ERA reduce APFSDS perforation for some % and it's depend on many factors: type of the ERA, ERA angle on /before main armour, type of penetrator (diameter, material, velocity, hit angle etc). "Adds" some RHA value is bullshit usefull for game maykers when game engine can't count ERA in game.
Kontakt-5

Relikt

This is for hull, increase will be different in turret and in different armour. (up to 1.5 :) )

BTW:
теперь все становится на свои места с уровнем защищенности. Если с реликтом уровень 850мм по БПС то без него гдето 570ии а с К5 680мм
(...)
без него 600-650, с К-5 720-780, как вы 570 то получили ? с учетом того что в инет утекает не пойми что, и 850 и НИИ сталевская табличка могут быть фейком, уж Путину то можно было сказать хоть "3 метра" разница то
(...)
Я тупо взял и тупо поделил 850 на 1.5 (заявленная эффективность работы реликта по БПС ) получил 567 потом так же тупо умножил на 1.2 (заявленная эффективность к5) получил 680мм

This have more sense, due to fact tat in whole wrold armour protection is given for turret front, not like You try to trying us about "hull protection". It haven't sense, but nice try ;-)
You know, you use as an argument a forum post of a person with no understanding. Study figures :)
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
Well may I recommend you something?
Please go and read given sources about Burlinghton becouse it's nonsens. You had wrote somthing about *composite armour withoud knowledges about subject. Please wrote by google translator this two articles about Burlinghton (you cand find them erlier here).

*If you understend "somposite armour" like soviet simple reflecting plates in T-72B or polymer celss in T-80U then maybe yes, but those sentense was nonsens about Burlinghon style armour.

Burlinghton armour for 1969/1970 was 2-3 times better against HEAT and have similar value (1) agianst APFSDS like RHA monoblock whit the same mass (weight). But Buringhton whit configuratin from about 1978 was 1,5 times better against APFSDS and 3 times better against HEAT then RHA steel at the same weight (mass).
So this what you wrote is not relevant about Burlington armour.
I specifically talked about volume (since you measure thickness) not weight.

Composite is has better weight effectiveness, but thickness, does not surpass equivalence with RHA.

And yes, modern composite is semi-reactive type, in Soviet tanks since T-72B.

WHAT?
"medim value" for 0. will be between 680 and 880mm LOS
medim value for 30. is constans: 650mm LOS.
For 0 is decrease/increase up to 900 from 600-700

With simple calculation, for 30 degrees it is constant of more than 700.

So what do you not understand, about medium (0-30 degrees arc) of 700 mm ??
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
Turret protection of modern tanks, T-90A, M1A2, Leopard 2A6, defeats most weapons, howewer it is not possible to protect hull against modern weapons (700-800 mm Kinetic and 900-1000+ mm of missiles) without addition of reactive armour.
 

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
Mikhail Rastopshin (worked at NII Stali)

T-72B 1985- 450 mm
T-80U- 500 mm

Corresponds with figure of Nii Stali of 480 mm, and given by Tarasenko.
Ok, those figures for hull may be correct.

For turret:

T-72B 1985- 550-600 mm

in article written by person working in 38 Nii (armour test and developement, Kubinka).
Yaa, and what more? Testes T-72B in USA, and on other NATO countres shown that T-72B have for basic turret armour no more then 540mm in fact it was 470mm RHA vor 30. and 540mm RHA for 0 vs APFSDS. Those figure (550/600mm) are taken from the space., or for HEAT when max value was about 640mm RHA for turret.
Of course this all without Kontakt.


Corresponds with protection increase of Relikt, 250 mm for hull of T-72B, more than 700 mm, and stated protection against M829A2.
LOL, buhaha yes, of cours "mor then 700mm" for hull :lol:

Not so obvious for you because you apply wrong calculations without having in account armour composition.
It's rather another example lack of knowledges when You posted smth about 600mm vs KE for T-72B:lol:


This is for hull, increase will be different in turret and in different armour. (up to 1.5 :) )
Ok, but give me simmilar dates for turret.

You know, you use as an argument a forum post of a person with no understanding. Study figures :)
Rather pepoles writing on otvaga have knowledges. And it was consider for more then ne person there. And conclusion was as I posted - T-90A have mu lower protection then T-90MS adn in fact it will be under mucht under 700mm for turret.

I specifically talked about volume (since you measure thickness) not weight.
So what is wrong whit volument in your world?
Why volumen in western tanks made its bigger thicknes less protected then thiner simple cast stell amour in estern tanks?

Composite is has better weight effectiveness, but thickness, does not surpass equivalence with RHA.
I don't get your point. LOS thickness in not armour protection. Of course 40mm RHA LOS is better protected then 4m wood, but it's not the point - Burlinghton armour whit the same weight as RHA plate (not even cast) have 3 times better protecion vs HEAT and 1,5 vs APFSDS in 1978. In fact simple cast steel whit small "special armour" cavity haven't any advantages in compare to Burlinghton.
Turret ("nacked") weight in T-72B is 11550kg
Turret in Leopard-2A4 weight 16000kg (without crew, ammo, attachments) only "special armour" weight is 8900kg.

And yes, modern composite is semi-reactive type, in Soviet tanks since T-72B.
It's not "modern" it's obsolate in compare to Burlinghton. "special armour" in T72B was primitive as hell, whole armour was primitive and obsolate:

This composite armour is simple "reflecting plates" not even NERA!
Solution in T-80U whit polymer cels in cast cell made from light alloys had mucht more sens.
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
Yaa, and what more? Testes T-72B in USA, and on other NATO countres shown that T-72B have for basic turret armour no more then 540mm in fact it was 470mm RHA vor 30. and 540mm RHA for 0 vs APFSDS. Those figure (550/600mm) are taken from the space., or for HEAT when max value was about 640mm RHA for turret.
Of course this all without Kontakt.
Well, T-72B armour was improved on different production batches.

For your example, it may be correct, probably it is of first variants, but since 1989 protection was more than 500 mm for hull and 550-600 mm for turret, or 470-500 mm for 30 degrees.

Given relation of turet-hull protection stated figure of 550-600 mm in relation to hull, 500-550 mm, makes sense (rough difference of 10-20%).

Actually for T-72B figure was, for hull

1985 - Passive armour composition, about 460-480 mm
1989 - 500-550 mm semi-reactive armour composition.

(T-80U with semi-reactive armour composition, 500 mm)

There was some difference with early T-90. It was again improved in T-90A to 600 mm.

Now on ERA.

Relikt for T-72B, T-90 gives an increase in protection of 1.4 times, or 250 mm according to Nii Stali.

Hull, about 500-550 mm of T-72B, + 250 mm gives up to 750 mm against APFSDS, or about 1.4 times increase, which corresponds with stated by Nii Stali protection against M829A2.

T-90A, about 600 mm, + 250 mm, or increase of 1.4 times would give 850 mm, same as stated in presentation.

On this case, all stated figures correspond.

LOL, buhaha yes, of cours "mor then 700mm" for hull :lol:
Highest figure for hull is up to 600 mm for T-90A.

Rather pepoles writing on otvaga have knowledges. And it was consider for more then ne person there. And conclusion was as I posted - T-90A have mu lower protection then T-90MS adn in fact it will be under mucht under 700mm for turret.
It is nosense.

So what is wrong whit volument in your world?
Why volumen in western tanks made its bigger thicknes less protected then thiner simple cast stell amour in estern tanks?
You did not understood. It is not correct to talk about weight effectiveness, when protection which you measure will depend on volume (thickness).

Material with several times better weight efficiency may be more voluminous.

I don't get your point. LOS thickness in not armour protection. Of course 40mm RHA LOS is better protected then 4m wood, but it's not the point - Burlinghton armour whit the same weight as RHA plate (not even cast) have 3 times better protecion vs HEAT and 1,5 vs APFSDS in 1978. In fact simple cast steel whit small "special armour" cavity haven't any advantages in compare to Burlinghton.
Turret ("nacked") weight in T-72B is 11550kg
Turret in Leopard-2A4 weight 16000kg (without crew, ammo, attachments) only "special armour" weight is 8900kg.
Weight comparison is irrelevant, especially if turret of Leopard 2 is much bigger and has much more armour volume.

It's not "modern" it's obsolate in compare to Burlinghton. "special armour" in T72B was primitive as hell, whole armour was primitive and obsolate:

This composite armour is simple "reflecting plates" not even NERA!
Solution in T-80U whit polymer cels in cast cell made from light alloys had mucht more sens.
This is semi-reactive armour which uses energy of projectile to destabilise it.



Effectiveness will depend on angle of incidence against plates. It gave already good level of protection against Kinetic and cumulative rounds. Effect of destabilisation will be much higher in combination with ERA.

Semi-reactive armour of T-80U is based on different principle, with polymer filler actuating as quasi-liquid due to inciding energy, waves generated by round will be reflected on armour, and will destabilise round.

Difference of effectiveness of such armour is about 5-10% (roughly corresponds with T-80U hull, more than 500 mm, and T-72B hull, more than 550 mm). Reflective layers would give better performance.
 
Last edited:

Austin

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
852
Likes
363
Lidsky M.D NII STALI mentioned that Relikt protection was 4-5 times better than Kontact-5

To quote the Milparade Article
Both complexes are principally new. Thus, the RELIKT complex employs a 4S23 element of reactive armor (RA) of high sensitivity and modern, more effective, propelling scheme where destructive and destabilizing influence on the ammunition striking elements (explosive jet, APDS rod) prevails relative to the thick armor plates propelled in opposite sides. In this case, the dominant contribution to the said destructive effect is made by the plate propelled in pursuit. Owing to fact that energetically a in-pursuit propelling is more advisable than an on-head propelling, the structures of such kind are more proof (in 4 to 5 times) against the APDS as compared with the KONTAKT-V RA series complex. At the same time we can see that the anti-tandem properties of such armor essentially increase, i.e. armor acquires better proofness against the most advanced tandem antitank guided missiles of type TOW-2A with a delay time of at least 400 us and with the penetration ability behind the mounted shape-charge-proof reactive armor of at least 1,000 mm.
 

Akim

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10,353
Likes
8,645
Country flag
Lidsky M.D NII STALI mentioned that Relikt protection was 4-5 times better than Kontact-5

To quote the Milparade Article
It is simply advertising step, but almost in 2 times defence rises
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Problem with Soviet composite armors is that they were not using advanced materials. Only Kharkiv was making attempts to do so.

Cast turrets of tanks developed in SU and Russia were 5 to 15% less protective than welded structures. But when finally these countries started production of welded turrets, only Ukraine started to use ESR (Electro Slag Remelted) high hardness steel, Russians still use only semi hardness steel... if we can belive russian language sources.

On west there was more focus on advanced materials and their combinations research. For example besides semi hardness steel, also used is high hardness steel and what is more important, even triple hardness steel, Methos can say something about THS steel. Later around 1986-1988 USA started a research how combine high hardness steel types with some dense material in to the existing non energetic reactive armor structure of composite armors.

This is how they shifted from Burlington armor in to new design that combined effectiveness and working mechanism of non energetic reactive armor, with dense depleted uranium alloy encased in high hardness or maybe even triple hardness steel.

This gives us effective combination of increased erosion, bending and yaw defeating mechanism of NERA, with high hardness of certain armor steel types and high density of DU. Later other nations followed this design solution in NATO, UK is claimed to use or Tungsten or DU, Germany and France are claimed to use Tungsten, and of course all these 4 big NATO tank manufacturers use high hardness steel types.

This was a reason why more or less NATO abandoned further development of explosive reactive armor. It was seen that more promising is work on advanced materials instead of protection that perhaps will have some deficiencies like no miltu hit capability or will grow in weight and bulkness which we can see in case of modern ERA.

NATO development eventually led to use of nanotechnology in armor development. This gives plenty of new opportunities and possibilities... and still NATO tanks have capability to use ERA if neccary as additional protection.

We should remember that armor development is constant, in 1999 with M1A2SEP, USA fielded 3rd the most advanced generation of their new armor with DU elements, after Iraq experiences, protection was further increased on front and sides of vehicle, in the same time new more deep upgrade of armor protection is prepared for the ECP (Engineering Change Proposal) for future M1 series deep modernization program.

So treating old Soviet data as something certain in case of western composites armor is not resonable, especially that under Burlington program, plenty of armor types were developed, even if Soviets gained some knowledge about this program, it is not certain if they ever get data for actually fielded armor type. Not to mention that Ballistic Research Laboratory during M1 research and development program, tested at least two armor configuration codenamed BRL-1 and BRL-2 and nobody knows the details, neither which one was used in the end, and there are only mere speculations about what actually happend.

What is more important, when Russia and Ukraine, actually reveals a lot of their armor developments and even show photos of armor structure, design and composition, Burlington program is still highly classified, which gives some thoughts about the scale of this program.
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
Lidsky M.D NII STALI mentioned that Relikt protection was 4-5 times better than Kontact-5

To quote the Milparade Article
What he stated about 4-5 times in fact could correspond to figures of 1.4, 1.5 armour increase for hull and for turret respectively. It is mistake, or he said on purpose as advertisement based on some criteria, but likely the latter.

There is also another mistake. He talks about delay time of tandem warhead of 400 microseconds. In fact, it corresponds to interaction lenght. Relikt was increased from 200 to 400 microseconds to defeat tandem warheads. Delay of Tow-2A, Kornet and rest is about 300 microseconds.
 
Last edited:

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
Well, T-72B armour was improved on different production batches.

For your example, it may be correct, probably it is of first variants, but since 1989 protection was more than 500 mm for hull and 550-600 mm for turret, or 470-500 mm for 30 degrees.

Given relation of turet-hull protection stated figure of 550-600 mm in relation to hull, 500-550 mm, makes sense (rough difference of 10-20%).

Actually for T-72B figure was, for hull

1985 - Passive armour composition, about 460-480 mm
1989 - 500-550 mm semi-reactive armour composition.

(T-80U with semi-reactive armour composition, 500 mm)

There was some difference with early T-90. It was again improved in T-90A to 600 mm.
Lidsky, I know about armour upgrades, the problem is that - T-72B and T-72BM (1989) have the same insert in special armour cavity - it's ths same somposition whit the same efectivnes. And depend on angle this armour in Ob.184 give between 470 adn 540mm RHA vs APFSDS form base turret armour. Of course with Kontakt-5 it's look mucht better.

And even erly T-90 whit cast turret have Verry simillar insert. It was changed in T-90A whit welded turret.


Now on ERA.

Relikt for T-72B, T-90 gives an increase in protection of 1.4 times, or 250 mm according to Nii Stali.

Hull, about 500-550 mm of T-72B, + 250 mm gives up to 750 mm against APFSDS, or about 1.4 times increase, which corresponds with stated by Nii Stali protection against M829A2.

T-90A, about 600 mm, + 250 mm, or increase of 1.4 times would give 850 mm, same as stated in presentation.

On this case, all stated figures correspond.

It is nosense.
It's the best method counting ERA and its using becuse values gives in that method are most comfortable for estern tanks.
Diffrent method (used in other countries) is depend on fact that ERA cassette reduce some % of penetrator perforation abilities, and after damege and loose some abilities penetrator must overpass basic armour. Counting basic armour + mm from ERA is not really relevant, but it's very comportable due to marketing resons.
Exampe:
Lest sey that in my personal opinion T-90A basick armour (without hevy ERA) is about:
for 840mm LOS about ~650mm RHA (lets say 600mm RHA for about 750mm LOS)
for 650mm LOS about ~500mm RHA.
Those values are big (maybe to bigg) but I have resont to stay with those values.
Enemy:
DM63 L-44 650mm RHA 2000m
DM53 L-55 750mm RHA 2000m


And now we have two diffrent metods counting ERA efectivness:
1) Yours: 600mm x 1.4 = 840mm RHA (240mm RHA "added" by ERA) in fact LOS is fluent for turret front for ) degree so whit this 1.4 the biggest value will be 910mm RHA the lowest- 680mm RHA but this give us problem that with "constans" ERA 1.4 value this "mm RHA" are fluent.
2) Using by me - ERA can reduce perforation capabilities - it's some % of penetrator abilities and its diffrent for difrent rods, ange of hit, etc. For example Ukrainian Knife can reduce on about 90% when APFSDS hit in this upper part of module consisti of three knife cassette layers. But hit in lower part incarase lower value -only about 60-70%. The worse scenario is for single layer for hull Knife module when hit in down part of ERA casette give us value under 50%.
The same for Relikt and Kontakt-5. Old Kontakt-5 can deal whit modern rods only in about 15%, it's upgraded version whit diffrent layout have fluent efectivness about 20%. For Relikt is given valur 50% in the best scenario and about 25-30% in whorse. This values have more sense then placed 1.4 in all time. It's difrent method and IMHO rather better.
In that case T-90 whit 600mm RHA on turret have still this 600mm RHA but atacking DM-53 will lose form 25 up to 50% perforation posibilities. So finnaly it will be from 560mm to 375mm RHA perfration after hit in Relikt casette.


You did not understood. It is not correct to talk about weight effectiveness, when protection which you measure will depend on volume (thickness).

Material with several times better weight efficiency may be more voluminous.
Rather you wold like to say that material with several times better weight efficiency can by placed in thinner layer whit bigger armour protection, but it's not work in that way about Burlinghton :)

Weight comparison is irrelevant, especially if turret of Leopard 2 is much bigger and has much more armour volume.
Yes, and no. Yes becouse when front area in m2 is the same for both tanks (Leo2A4 and T-72B -yes, I know, but it's true both have the same 4,5-4,7m2) then turret sides in Leo-2A4 protected to hal its lenght give bigger volumen.
But if you consider that 8.900kg Burlinghton armour whit mass efectivnes like given in this article for 1978r (1,5 vs KE, 3x CE) is equal to 13.350kg vs APFSDS and 26700g vs HEAT you can see how diffrent protection it can be...even if volumen (due to turret sides) is slighty (20-24%) bigger in Leo2A4...
BTW: nobody says that 1,5 and 3 is correct for Leo-2A4 it can be bigger values becouse tank for 1985 should have better armour then from 1978...

This is semi-reactive armour which uses energy of projectile to destabilise it.



Effectiveness will depend on angle of incidence against plates. It gave already good level of protection against Kinetic and cumulative rounds. Effect of destabilisation will be much higher in combination with ERA.
Those reflecking platas in T-72B are primitive IMHO it's not even NERA as I said - it's work like bulging armour: eacht module is 30m thick, when firs RHA layer (21mm thick) is hit and penetrated by initially "blunt" (by front cast steel armour) penetreto, is transfering energy by 3mm thick rubber to 6mm thick hight plasticy RHA plate. This plate during bulging give back energy into penetator area and change a little position so it can bent a little penetrator. It's efectivness is the biggest on little angle - close to 10-20 degree - when ange is bigger then it's efectivness is smaller but in that case more then 3 modules try to damege penetrator. So finnaly for this bigger angle protection is not many worse. After those layers damage and little bent (and blunt) penetrator hit 45mm thick HHS plate so older partial penetrator can be broken and shorter penetrator can be bent to mucht to overcome inner layers. But longer dhen DM23 penetrator should be able to overcome this armour In fact those armour it's definetly not hig-teh. It's less advanced then ERA or Bulinghton, and it's efectivness is mucht worse. But its "compensate" by hilarious thick cast steel plate. Of course I had read on NI Stalii pages about that, and in other sources -but this armour is not impresive, and not modern at all...


Semi-reactive armour of T-80U is based on different principle, with polymer filler actuating as quasi-liquid due to inciding energy, waves generated by round will be reflected on armour, and will destabilise round.
Yes, it's slighty more modern.

Difference of effectiveness of such armour is about 5-10% (roughly corresponds with T-80U hull, more than 500 mm, and T-72B hull, more than 550 mm). Reflective layers would give better performance.
As I remember on NI Stalii pages - solution from T-80U have bigger efectivness against HEAT... And in T-80U hull there is no solution like that so compare to hulls in T-72B and T-80U is pointless. In fact there is big difrense between hull layout in T-80U and T-72B and ironicly it's not good for T-72B...
 

Akim

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10,353
Likes
8,645
Country flag

EE - T1 Osório
It is an example of creation of "national" tank. Though, he on some parameters excels М1А1 and Leopard1А5, but from a strong competition at the market, a tank so remained a pre-serial machine.
 

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
Markava Mk.IV modules:



In fact M.IV is armoured slighty weaker then rest western MBT's.
The markava Mk.IV paradoks is that: turret sides for 90. are better protected, but for typical 30 degree are weaer then rest tanks. What whorse - for 0.degree "on pick" the frontal module LOS is big - about even 1300mm LOS, but for upper part is lower - about 700-750mm LOS, so...it's thinner.
 
Last edited:

bhramos

New Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
25,644
Likes
37,250
Country flag
[video=youtube_share;4nDkr17ATK0]http://youtu.be/4nDkr17ATK0[/video]
 

Akim

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10,353
Likes
8,645
Country flag
Find 10 differences (joke)

Marder

Namer

BMPV-64

Armata (supposed kind):confused:
 
Last edited:

Articles

Top