Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Yes, all tanks have weak zones in their armor. This is unfortunate, but sometimes nececary. You should rather make a question, why T-90MS have such weak zones, that are well known to Russians, and were not present in T-90A and T-90S?

I can tell You why it was designed that way. Because there was no other way to place new bulkier electronics package in the old turret, as well as to provide TC with better short range visibility through his cupola vision blocks.

Perhaps it can be corrected by making larger turret, but this will make vehicle heavier. It is not nececary the best way to improve vehicle, there might be of course also other way, like redesigning interior.

A well thought tank deign dont required such trade offs, I was well aware of electronics..

T-90MS deign is not revolutionary but a re-make of T-90S with new advance which needed space,
As being inside T-90S & 72, i am too aware of its internal space..

Though the engineering at the site in expo told they are still trying to reduce the over all height..

Regarding turret, you cannot make it more bigger than it is already is, T-90MS deign is T-90S on steroids, rather you need a new deign turret with new deigned chassis..

----------------------------------------

The conclusion from my visit is :

1. Either one should make compact electronics..

2. Removal of unnecessary electronics..

After anyone of the above then only you can modify the deign of the turret..
 

Damian

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Kunal... please, it is design, desing not deign.

A well thought tank deign dont required such trade offs, I was well aware of electronics..

T-90MS deign is not revolutionary but a re-make of T-90S with new advance which needed space,
As being inside T-90S & 72, i am too aware of its internal space..

Though the engineering at the site in expo told they are still trying to reduce the over all height..

Regarding turret, you cannot make it more bigger than it is already is, T-90MS deign is T-90S on steroids, rather you need a new deign turret with new deigned chassis..

----------------------------------------

The conclusion from my visit is :

1. Either one should make compact electronics..

2. Removal of unnecessary electronics..

After anyone of the above then only you can modify the deign of the turret..
You see, designers at UVZ are perfectly aware that turret design is not perfect, this means that they are working on it.

You need to understand that there are no perfect design, neither electronics can be smaller sometimes.

I give You a perfect example.

When Americans were working on M1A2, the original plan was to make ICWS similiar to the old CWS in terms of providing tank commander a capability to fire cupola machine gun from vehicle interior. But when they tried to pack up such powered cupola + IVIS and CITV display, it become obvious that it is immposible, they had a choice, or powered cupola or CITV and IVIS displays.

Why they could not place both on tank? Answer is simple, neither displays could been made smaller, neither cupola motor and gearbox could be smaller or relocated somewhere else.

Because digitalization was more important, they decided to use simplified ICWS with flex mount for TC machine gun, that now could have been operated only with hatch open. In a long term it was not a problem because flex mounted cupola machine gun was replaced with RWS on M1A2SEP v2.

But as You can see, sometimes You just can't do things different way.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Kunal... please, it is design, desing not deign.
Google Auto correction.. de-sign ..

You see, designers at UVZ are perfectly aware that turret design is not perfect, this means that they are working on it.

You need to understand that there are no perfect design, neither electronics can be smaller sometimes.
Of-course they are working on, it took 5mins for him to admit that height is a problem.. :rolleyes: typical

Your example is fine, BUT that is years back, There are lots of new hardware are compact enough to Increase space..
 

Damian

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

So we should wait, perhaps if there will be money, UVZ will present updated T-90MS... as You know current T-90MS is nothing more but a technology demonstrator, it is far from ready product.

In the end UVZ might completely leave work on T-90MS and focus all resources on "Armata" project as more promising and with better future perspectives.
 

Akim

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Is there any tank that can take RPG 29 from side?
In Livan 2006 there were cases when Merkava with ERA maintained a hit from RPG- 29 in a lateral projection. But it is better to use RPG- 7 with the shot of PG-7VR. Penetration less. But he is much more mobile in urban combat.
 

Damian

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Basic side protection of, at least most MBT's is not efficent enough against RPG-7 with PG-7VR granade, neither against RPG-29 with PG-29V. Also RPG-26, RPG-27 and the real monster RPG-28 or RPG-30, are efficent enough to go through such protection.

However advance in armor technology, can provide us with capability to install additional side armor in form of ERA that can protect against tandem warheads, or composite armor with NERA design, also capable to protect against such threats. And such additional protection can be very light.

So in reality all tanks are vurnable, but also can be protected against threats like this.

Several examples.



M1A2SEP v2 with TUSK-2. Side hull is protected by metal skirts with explosive reactive armor M19 ARAT, what is interesting about this ERA is that it have multilayer design. Also M19 ARAT in TUSK-2 variant is covered by M32 ARAT-2 ERA, same ERA cassettes are placed on turret sides.

[/URL]

Above we can see the internal structure of M19 ARAT ERA, we can see several layers of reactive material placed at angle. As a side note, ERA on these photos worked as designed, protecting vehicle, damage is only cosmetic due to ERA detonation, similiar cosmetic damage can be found on photos showing other tanks equiped with ERA.



Here M32 ARAT-2 mounted on M19 ARAT-1, creating additional layer of ERA... M32 cassettes have very specific shape, similiar to roof tiles or antic Roman Scutum shields used by Legions.

Basic M1A2SEP v2 weight aprox 63,1 metric tons, with TUSK kit it weights should increase to about 65 metric tons.





German made upgrades for Leopard 2 series. Composite addon armor for turret and hull is based on materials manufactured with use of nanotechnology for weight reduction but also without sacrificing protection characteristics. AFAIK weight increase for such armor is below 1 metric ton.



Challenger 2 with TES-H upgrade. Hull and turret sides are protected by addon ERA and Composite armor, weight increase to 74 metric tons.



Ukrainian T-84M "Oplot"/BM "Oplot", front and sides of hull, as well as front turret have additional protection of single/double/triple layered ERA "Knife"/"Dublet". This type of ERA is based on linear shaped charges, that after detonation creates linear jets cutting Kinetic Energy penetrators and shaped charge jets from HEAT, RPG and ATGM warheads, thus reducing their penetration values.

Tank weights only 51 metric tons.
 
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methos

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AFAIK weight increase for such armor is below 1 metric ton.
Total weight increase with AMAP is 5 to 6 tonnes on Leopard 2 Evolution. This probably means 3 to 4 tonnes for the side armour.
 

Damian

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Total weight increase with AMAP is 5 to 6 tonnes on Leopard 2 Evolution. This probably means 3 to 4 tonnes for the side armour.
Are You sure? For Strv122 that is also using IBD armor package, they said that weight increase is below 1 metric ton.

Perhaps it depends on size and characteristics of armor. The universal protection against KE and CE ammunition might be heavier, while CE ammunition optimized protection might be lighter.

On the other hand the objective for Leopard 2A4 with Evolution armor package was to stay below 60 tons.

Leopard 2A4 weights approx 55 tons, additional 5-6 tons should keep it in limit of 60-61 tons.

Strv 122B: An upgrade developed to increase the all-round survivability of Swedish Strv 122 tanks. The upgrade increases the weight by 350 kilograms (770 lb) and raises the vehicle's width to 4 metres (13 ft).[4] Newly developed SLAT armour is used to protect the rear.
This is what is written on Wikipedia, however PDF that is source for this information is not avaiable right now for some reason, as well as IBD Deisenroth internet site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Modular_Armor_Protection#cite_note-Feb2011-3
 
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methos

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The official brochure from IBD says the following:
"For the Leopard 2 A4 Evolution, with a total weight of only 60 tons – compared to 56.6 tons in the original conguration – this means that the platform is still providing a very high tactical mobility in order to perform the necessary tasks.
Thereby it is possible to upgrade a legacy platform with the AMAP-technologies and at the same time create a new concept to meet the need for all-round protection against the evolving threats.
" As the whole side skirts were replaced this will reduce the total weight of a Leopard 2A4 to ~54 - 55 tonnes (the weight figure from IBD seems to be a little to high). Armour therefore will weigh ~5 to 6 tonnes.

The Strv 122B has the whole sideskirts and frontal applique armour (wedge-shaped turret modules and hull armour) replaced. This was done not for increasing protection, but for decreasing weight. IMO both hull and turret applique armour of the Leopard 2A5/Strv 122 are very dense, as they seem to be made of pretty much steel/HHS. Using newer alloys or alternatively another type of armour will reduce the total weight by more than a tonne... possibly something in the area of 2-3 tonnes.
 

Damian

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Either way, technology is promising and interesting.

If composite armor made from newer alloys and materials buildd with nanotechnology, could be used as base armor of vehicle, then weight could be greatly reduced at least without sacrifing current protection characteristics.

IMHO when this technology will further mature, we can expect to reduce weight to 50-55 tons (additional weight reductions can be achieved by proper overall vehicle design and replacing some mechanical components with their lighter analogs).

Americans plans to reduce weight of M1 Abrams tanks in future upgrade to approx 55 tons, this probably means they plan to use such type of armor as basic armor.
 
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Bhadra

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@Damain

Tell me RPG 7 V is a better anti Tank weapon or 84 mm Carl Gustav ?
 

Damian

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@Damain

Tell me RPG 7 V is a better anti Tank weapon or 84 mm Carl Gustav ?
Depends on used ammunition.

The FFV751 tandem-warhead HEAT round with an ability to penetrate more than 500mm of armour, while PG-7VR can penetrate 600mm of RHA behind ERA, and 750mm RHA without ERA protection.

Make Your own conclusion.
 

militarysta

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Sorry - I found in tekst:

Do przełomu doszło w 1964 r. Pracownikom FVRDE udało się opracować osłonę, która
była przeszło dwukrotnie skuteczniejsza przeciwko głowicom kumulacyjnym, a jednocześnie
zapewniała zbliżoną odporność na amunicję kinetyczną, jak jednorodny pancerz
walcowany (RHA) o tej samej masie
13
So this "mass Efficiency" was in compare to the RHA plate, so this post should be like:

[/QUOTE]

I forgot about another important think:
In Ob.184 gun mantled mask area have big gap for gun -it's possible to perforate this area even by 14,5mm from 500m. Rest of gun mantled mask area is 300 to 450mm thick. For most of the are is 300-350 thick, nera edges of the area it is 450mm thick - near special armour cavity. All is only cast steel -as we know cast stell is about 15% less strong then RHA plates, so in fact this area is protected like:
255-380mm RHA. But armour protection is the same for APFSDS and HEAT. on whole 850mm width. It's only cast steel.

In Leopard-2 gun mantled mask is 940mm width but it have constant thickness - 420mm. Gun mantled mask area in Leopard-2 have multi layers structure - it's not monoblock! What is guite funny - we can estimate gun manteld mask protection.
In this two greate articles about erly Burlinghton:
http://www.wceo.wp.mil.pl/plik/file/WBBH/PH-W/PHW_4.pdf
http://www.wceo.wp.mil.pl/plik/file/WBBH/PHW3_tresc.pdf
We have some dates (with bibliography of course). In 1978 Burlinghton special armour had mass Efficiency like 1,5 vs APFSDS and 3 vs HEAT in compared to homogeneous armor steel of the same weight.
So 1kg Burlinghton armour shoud offer protection like 1,5kg homogeneous steel armor vs APFSDs and 3kg homogeneous steel armor vs HEAT (of course it is only example).
Dimensions leopard-2 gun mantled mask are known, the same dimensions of blanks for L-44, FERO, and MG. And we know mass of gun mantled mask - 630kg. Rest is rather simple math base on qustion- how thick will be homogeneous steel armor block "inside" gun mask dimensions if it will be weight 950kg (630kg x1,5 vs APFSDS) and 1890kg (630kg x3 ve HEAT). The answer is:
a) 272 mm
b) 542 mm
Now is the question what was mentioned in tekst "homogeneous steel armor" if it was RHA plate (I doubt) then armour protection will be like mentionet above.
EDIT: and as I found in tekst -indeed it's in compare to the RHA plate.
So this protection offer by gun mantled mask should be:
a) 270 mm vs APFSDS
b) 540 mm vs HEAT
What gives us the simillar protection against APFSDS: 270mm (leo-2) vs 255-380mm (T-72B) but definetly better against HEAT:
540mm (leo-2) vs 255-380mm (T-72B), What is most important - gun mantled mask area in Leopard-2 has a constant thickness but in T-72B not - there is big hole inside area, 300mm LOS befoer gun mounted pins, and 350-400mm LOS on most of the area. In fact whole area have LOS in around 350mm not bigger. So protection in Leopard-2 is mucht better.

BTW: If we realize that gun mantled mask area in leopard-2 (420mm) is exactly half the thickness of front turret LOS armour (840mm), then we consider if Leopard-2A4 protection will be like:
~540mm vs APFSDS*
~1080mm vs HEAT. *
Of course it's based on Burlinghton mass Efficiency from 1978 and definitely Leopard-2A4 from 1985/1986 have diffrent (stronger) armour then erly leopard-2A0-A2 from 1980/1982. Another question is how cloes to the Burlinghton was German special armour - we know that in 1974 Germans have full aces to the americans Burlinghton branch development program.


*of course it's not so easy scale
In middle 1970 there was dependence between protection against APFSDS and HEAT
430 and 585mm RHA (1 to 1,36), but Increased armour protection against HEAT to 850mm RHA resulted with a decrease in armour protection vs APFSDS to "only" 405mm (1 to 2.09) etc -so the question is what was most important for germnas? In fact Leppard-2A4 armour can give protection not in 1:2.09 ratio but in 1:1.36 ratio. In that case it will be ex:
540mm RHA vs APFSDS and ~740mm vs HEAT

In fact in the text are three important depending:
a) in 1964 the predecessor of the Burlington had mass Efficiency like ~1 vs APFSDS and ~2 vs HEAT in compared to homogeneous armor steel (RHA in tekst) of the same weight
b) In 1978 Burlinghton special armour had mass Efficiency like 1,5 vs APFSDS and 3 vs HEAT in compared to homogeneous armor steel (RHA in tekst) of the same weight
c) there was some ratios between protection against APFSDs and HEAT and there wasn't linear like this 430/585 and 405/850
 
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hest

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I will be brief. Why do you again try to manipulate comparison ? To make your point of view about protection (you do not want to show big weak zones in Leopard so you manipulated) you compare simple T-72B while it was clear it is T-72B model 1989 level (T-72BA) with Kontakt-V ERA, of course you eluded. So far nothing valid.

And your calculations about weak zone protection are funny, because even if those values are correct (I believe), they are poor for today's standarts. Exactly the same applies to T-72 with late 80s level protection. What is the point of making wonders out of outdated material ? (you focus on making protection look decent, but it is aknowledged that it is just outdated level today no matter if there is difference of 50, 100 200mm or etc. it is not relevant in today's context).

When I'll be back, on my next post I will present comparison.
 
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Damian

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Why do you again try to manipulate comparison ? To make your point of view about protection (you do not want to show big weak zones in Leopard so you manipulated) you compare simple T-72B while it was clear it is T-72B model 1989 level (T-72BA) with Kontakt-V ERA, of course you eluded. So far nothing valid.

And your calculations about weak zone protection are funny, because even if those values are correct (I believe), they are poor for today's standarts. Exactly the same applies to T-72 with late 80s level protection. What is the point of making wonders out of outdated material ? (you focus on making protection look decent, but it is aknowledged that it is just outdated level today no matter if there is difference of 50, 100 200mm or etc. it is not relevant in today's context).
You make first mistake

Soviet composite armors during cold war were inferior to Burlington in term of protection.

First thing is used materials.

As we could see, Soviet composite armors are mostly based on one single base material, be it alluminium filler in Combination K, T-72B's simple steel plates with rubber, or cellural casting of T-80U with polimer filler.

While Burlington armor, was modular design, easy to be modified per needs.

In documents there are even mentions about Burlington variant with build in explosive reactive armor.

But the basic design is also interesting, because NERA array wasn't nothing new, but how materials used in this array were combined. Especially later types of armor that were based on Burlington design.

The most interesting applications is to combine different armor steel types with heavy metal alloys.

Thus by combining high density depleted uranium or tungsten alloys, encased in semi hardness, high hardness or triple hardness steel plates, we can achieve increase in both KE and CE protection. Also take a note that this is still a NERA like array using such protection mechanisms like yaw, bending and a working mechanism called by Burlington designers as "whistle effect", what is this and what are principles of this working mechanism, are unknown.

Another problem with soviet tanks were their turrets. Russians sources says that cast turret armor is from 5 to 15 % weaker than it's rolled analog. What type of turrets have soviet tanks back then? Of course cast, while NATO tanks with composite armors, have turrets made by welding steel plates.

Another problem of soviet tanks is space used for composite armor per complete thickness of armor array.

When we compare how much composite filler is used in Soviet and NATO designs, we can observe that NATO designs at any predictible hit angle, have more composite armor standing against incoming projectile than soviet designs.

When we combine all of these characteristics, compare them, we can assume that NATO found a way to develop more advanced composite armor... of course the price for that was more bulky and heavier tank design.

But what is important, Burlington armor design evolved whole time during cold war. Of course, some people from some countries (vide Lidsky) will try to argue with reality, but the fact is that Leopard 2A4 manufactured during second half of 1980's, or M1A1HA manufactured in the same years, still have descent protection.

Not new manufactured does not mean completely obsolete.

There are of course many more factors, like ease of armor replacement and modernization, etc.

I had interesting conversation with a person from Kharkiv, I asked him if it is possible to replace composite armor in soviet tanks with cast turrets. He only confirmed the very well known fact in my country. In many soviet tank designs, turret armor replacement might end with significant structure damage, thus armor replacement or even repair might be difficult or immposible.

While in NATO tanks, not matters what variant, might have armor replaced with ease. American maintnance teams before Operation Desert Storm were able to replace armor in older M1A1's in 30 minutes spent on each tank, thus simply upgrading them in to M1A1HA standard.

This shows that without changing vehicle base standard, and without significant external difference, protection of NATO tanks might be improved without significant costs increase and time increase.

And Damian, do not spend time now searching for information on russian forums, it just confirmed how ignorant you was in subject and discussed only with empty words, but it was clear for me already.
I asked people that know more about this, and guess what, they proved my point and what I said.

http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVOut0809/T-72BA/T-72BA001.htm

Good source, it shows that T-72BA is not a single standard. Some T-72BA do not have even thermal sights, but old active IR night sights.

Simple refurbishment, not a real modernization, hard to be comparable even with older variants of NATO 3rd generation MBT's.
 
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militarysta

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I will be brief. Why do you again try to manipulate comparison ? To make your point of view about protection (you do not want to show big weak zones in Leopard so you manipulated)
Have You any idea what are "weak zones"? So You claim that in Leopard-2 this zones are bigger then I posted? You haven't idea about Leopard-2 I suppose, and If you will using sourses like btvt you will be write bullshit like "monoblock steel gun mantled mask" or "65cm LOS Leopard-2 turret thickness" - 90% this fairytails are made by Andriej Tarasenko/Harkonnen/Andriej_bt. I prof many times (in this topic too..) how stupid are this all "Leopard-2A4 vs T-80U" articles on btvt. When Tarasenko can't find even proper LOS thickness Leopard-2A4 armour.
There are no other weak zones in Leopard-2A4 -but propably You haven't even idea how it's looks in Leopard-2 :)

you compare simple T-72B while it was clear it is T-72B model 1989 level (T-72BA) with Kontakt-V ERA, of course you eluded.
You know -Its funny becouse I have feelings that I just read more about T-72BA then You...
a) base cast steel turret whit internal "special armour" cavity is the same for both T-72B and "Model 1989) (just Ob.184).
c) Modernisated T-72BA between 1998 and 2008 have the same ERA armour like before modernisation - if tank had Kontak-1 it still have Kontak-1 If tnak had Kontakt-5 it have Kontakt-5. In fact on photos about 50% T-72BA have still Kontakt-1 ERA :)
d) Propably You want to wrote only about last bath of T-72BA - called smometimes as Т-72БА2 when is placed Sosna-U,В-92С2, and 2A45M5 gun. But Kontakt-5 is the same like on tank before modernisation.
.
And your calculations about weak zone protection are funny, because even if those values are correct (I believe), they are poor for today's standarts. Exactly the same applies to T-72 with late 80s level protection. What is the point of making wonders out of outdated material ?
Becouse it shown that Leopard-2A4 is better in protection thema tank then T-72B and BA modernisation.

ps.Im still waiting for You post about T-72BA mobility - You still can't show nothing compare to this what I posted yesterday.
 

hest

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Have You any idea what are "weak zones"? So You claim that in Leopard-2 this zones are bigger then I posted? You haven't idea about Leopard-2 I suppose, and If you will using sourses like btvt you will be write bullshit like "monoblock steel gun mantled mask" or "65cm LOS Leopard-2 turret thickness" - 90% this fairytails are made by Andriej Tarasenko/Harkonnen/Andriej_bt. I prof many times (in this topic too..) how stupid are this all "Leopard-2A4 vs T-80U" articles on btvt. When Tarasenko can't find even proper LOS thickness Leopard-2A4 armour.
There are no other weak zones in Leopard-2A4 -but propably You haven't even idea how it's looks in Leopard-2 :)
This is how you manipulated:
"For Leopard-2A4 I of course don count erea behind EMES-15 window becouse it's 650mm thick - so it's bigest value then almoust whlole T-72B turret LOS on 30.degree for longitiudal axis. Taking this area as "weak" is equal to take whole T-72B turret at 30. as "weak". So it haven't sens."

Here lies big manipulation. You obviously did not wanted to represent big weak zone around EMES sight armour gap, because it would not play in favour, so you compared it with old T-72B without having in account Kontakt-V ERA. You want comparison with T-72BA, but when time comes, you just avoid it.

So your entire comparison of armour protection says nothing so far.

You know -Its funny becouse I have feelings that I just read more about T-72BA then You...
a) base cast steel turret whit internal "special armour" cavity is the same for both T-72B and "Model 1989) (just Ob.184).
c) Modernisated T-72BA between 1998 and 2008 have the same ERA armour like before modernisation - if tank had Kontak-1 it still have Kontak-1 If tnak had Kontakt-5 it have Kontakt-5. In fact on photos about 50% T-72BA have still Kontakt-1 ERA :)
d) Propably You want to wrote only about last bath of T-72BA - called smometimes as Т-72БА2 when is placed Sosna-U,В-92С2, and 2A45M5 gun. But Kontakt-5 is the same like on tank before modernisation.
.
1- Between them there is big difference in protection with mounting of Kontakt-V universal ERA. Yes, armour cavity is on technological level of past decades and same applies to Leopard 2A4.
2, 3- Yes, here we are discussing current T-72B modernised for which contract was signed on march 2011 for more than 300 tanks in next 3 years. Now about 50-100 tanks have been modernised. Was it hard to understand from beggining ?

Becouse it shown that Leopard-2A4 is better in protection thema tank then T-72B and BA modernisation.
Bullshit, you did not even compared the correct tank.

ps.Im still waiting for You post about T-72BA mobility - You still can't show nothing compare to this what I posted yesterday.
When I'll be back in 2 days I will post comparison. .
 
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hest

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I asked people that know more about this, and guess what, they proved my point and what I said.

Т-72БА - 0001.htm

Good source, it shows that T-72BA is not a single standard. Some T-72BA do not have even thermal sights, but old active IR night sights.

Simple refurbishment, not a real modernization, hard to be comparable even with older variants of NATO 3rd generation MBT's.
It just confirms how you started discussion with ignorance and silly arguments (and you provided nothing valuable because you did not even knew).

I'll say once again. We compare 2011 T-72B modernisation. Still will not get the point ??
 

Damian

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It just confirms how you started discussion with ignorance and silly arguments (and you provided nothing valuable because you did not even knew).

I'll say once again. We compare 2011 T-72B modernisation. Still will not get the point ??
This source confirms that T-72BA is not a single modernization variant, but is simple refurbishment program, and that UVZ depending on money they will have from Russian MoD, can upgrade T-72B only in some characteristics, some have upgraded FCS (slightly and it is insignificant), some have Kontakt-5 instead of Kontakt-1, some have Sosna-U thermal sight, some do not have any significant upgrade.

And anyone, can read this article, anyone can make his own decision.

You are talking about sources all the time, but as Militarysta said, You are incapable to provide anything... so, go home maybe?

This is how you manipulated:
"For Leopard-2A4 I of course don count erea behind EMES-15 window becouse it's 650mm thick - so it's bigest value then almoust whlole T-72B turret LOS on 30.degree for longitiudal axis. Taking this area as "weak" is equal to take whole T-72B turret at 30. as "weak". So it haven't sens."

Here lies big manipulation. You obviously did not wanted to represent big weak zone around EMES sight armour gap, because it would not play in favour, so you compared it with old T-72B without having in account Kontakt-V ERA. You want comparison with T-72BA, but when time comes, you just avoid it.

So your entire comparison of armour protection says nothing so far.
You seems to completely not understand what Militarysta said. Weak zone in main sight area is very well known, and Militarysta never denied it's existance.

As for Kontakt-5, this is allready obsolete way of protection, Relikt slowly is also obsolete, as all such types of ERA, that are due to their working mechanism, unable to completely protect vehicle against modern APFSDS ammunition.

But of course we know, that You will accept only things that will be said in favor of Your beloved toy... but please, keep this show longer, You are very amusing example of internet troll.

Bullshit, you did not even compared the correct tank.
Currently bullshit is everything You say.

Militarysta done proper comparision. Not to mention that I explained why NATO MBT's have better basic protection of composite armor. And Kontakt-5 do not give any real advantage, it is merely making protection comparable. This is why it is used as integral part of vehicle protection, not addon.

When I'll be back in 2 days I will post comparison. .
Yeah right...
 

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