Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[methos]

Leopard 2A7 (prototypes):

 

[blueblood]

Norinco MBT 3000

Main Battle Tank 3000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.-------------------/2012/06/chinas-norinco-new-mbt-3000-tank.html

 

[militarysta]

Norinco MBT 3000
Main Battle Tank 3000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.-------------------/2012/06/chinas-norinco-new-mbt-3000-tank.html

Well - it's still long long way before chineese industry to made tank on western tanks level. This tank, like older ones is still inferior when we compare it with western on even russian ones.
Of course Internet is full of fanboys which are producing bullshit like "super-duper chineese 125mm AFSDS witch ~800/900/ ble ble bla perforation" and full of normal propagandists (like Andriej Tarasenko vel Herkonnen, vel Andriej BT) who try to prove, using faken facts and arguments, how their "home made" tanks are comparable to the western ones. When guys from Russia and Ukraina have some trully argumants (in fact T-90MS and Oplot-M are very good tanks) then gus from China, Pakistan, and others are somtimes just pathetic.

Thanks God there are some Independent analysts, who often fight with those nonsense and dishonest marketing.
three good example was:

1. Andriej Tarasenko vel Harkonnen faken Leopard-2A4 LOS - what was bullshit of the decade and this fake still exist on many forums and on btvt and his blog. This fake was developed by using one mesurment (65cm after EMES-15 box) and transferred to the rest of the dimensions. When in fact Leopard-2A4 LOS is 84cm
Proofs:
Fake:
andrei_bt - Сравнение Т-80У и "Леопард-2" и Сравнение Т-90А и М1А1 "Абрамс"
Сравнение «Леопард-2А4» и Т-64Б (БМ «Булат»)
And normal photos made on polish Leopard-2A4 (1986):






So all this tekst about 65cm Leo-2A4 LOS was propaganda made for sacared by free ex Germans Leopard-2A4 guys from Charkiv (Charków) tank factory.

2. Again Andriej T, andriejBT, Harkonnen fake about western armour -this all talking about weak burlinghton armour integrity:
andrei_bt - Чобхейм
Т-90 ПРОТИВ "АБРАМСА"

In fact Burlnghton armour was far far better then estern solutions - according to research made by polish armour scientist Paweł Przeździecki we know that Burlinghton special armour had excellent performance and for at least two decades just outclassed other armour wariants.
Proofs are here:
http://www.wceo.wp.mil.pl/plik/file/WBBH/PH-W/PHW_4.pdf (page 105)
http://www.wceo.wp.mil.pl/plik/file/WBBH/PHW3_tresc.pdf (page 111)

And according to this photos:

We can tell that inner armour layout is totally difrent then btvt claims.


3. Other storry are B-S about super-duper chineese 125mm AFSDS :
like here: Type 99 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

n addition, the Chinese have developed depleted uranium (DU) rounds for their tanks and these may be available for the Type 99. The 3rd generation kinetic energy armour-piercing ammunition for the 125 mm tank gun is the APFSDS round with a 30:1 length/calibre heavy tungsten alloy penetrator and the round has a muzzle velocity of 1,780 m/s[citation needed] and is claimed to be capable of penetrating 850 mm steel armour at a distance of 2,000 m.[citation needed] A depleted uranium (DU) APFSDS round which is claimed to be able to penetrate 960 mm steel armour at a distance of 2.000 m[citation needed]

What is a complete nonsense!
Methos on other forum proved it - there is no mirracle and wunderwaffe in chineese 125mm APFSDS.
All chinees APFSDS which are two-piece ammo had limited core(penetrator) lenght - end only this one fact can ruin this B-S about so hight performanses, and the are other proofs abou that.
In fact chineese 125mm APFSDS are clon of israeli CL3579 Mk.II and russian 3BM42 and like all clasic 125mm APFSDS have limits.
In fact it's look that:

"In recent years, a key priority of China's tank industry has been the upgrading of 125-mm caliber tank ammunitions, particularly APFSDS. China has so far upgraded APFSDS II to APFSDS IIM, both of which have a weight of 23 kilograms, but with different velocities. The APFSDS II has a velocity of 1720 meters per second, while the IIM's velocity is 1700 meters per second.

The two types of APFSDS munitions have a penetration capacity of RHA220 mm/68.5o and RHA220mm/66.4o at a range of 2000 meters respectively. The 125-mm BTJ1 HEAT munitions have a penetration capacity of RHA180mm/68 o with behind armor effect, while the HEAT munitions displayed in earlier years have had a penetration capacity of RHA80mm/68 o with behind armor effect.

--

(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada.) "

When we we convert it to NATO norms we have:
APFSDS
RHA220 mm/68.5o - ~600mm RHA
RHA220mm/66.4o - ~550mm RHA
So it's russian late 80. level

So we shoud remember about that - in internet there is everything - including awareness manipulation made by professional propagandists employees by tank industry.

 

[Damian]

New proposed modernization for T-72B called "White Eagle".

More here.

Gur Khan attacks!: Тайны "Белого Орла": питерская модернизация Т-72 - одна из лучших в мире

 

[militarysta]

Polish multispectral camouflage cover - "Berberys" (barberry?)
First left picture - two wheel IFV "Rosomak" - left without Berberys, right - with multispectral camouflage.
Second picture - Rosomak after long ride, as we can see the hot wheels are the bigest problem to cover IFV.
Third picture (left bottom) - Rosomak with Berberys shot from typical army camera at 100m.
Fprth picture - rosomak without Berberys (we can see how visible is "nacked armour") and.. solier in personla Berberys cover before it - As we can see this solider is IMHO difficul to find.
Thic pictures was made on 100m distance - Berberys was developed to cover "target" on 1000m in day (nacked eye), thermal spectrum, and radar band.


Here on wheel IFV - Rosomak. Pictures was make for 100m distance. - of course it's to "cose" to hide "Rosomak - AMV" but we can see that this cover "Berberys" is not so bad.

From producent site:

Camouflage coating
Multispectral camouflage coating BERBERYS

The condition for destroying an object is its detection and identification. Practically every uncamouflaged object is exposed to detection employing reconnaissance agents used by leading armies of the world.
The aim of camouflage is prevention from detection and identification of military objects through disinformation, simulation and hiding.
Detection agents, contemporarly used for reconnaissance and operating in a full range of electromagnetic radiation, force the use of adequate camouflage means.
BERBERYS is the best solution in the scope of multispectral camouflage as it is a universal coating which provides camouflage in a full extent that can be applied for military equipment and objects of a different kind.
The basic parameters of coating BERBERYS which guarantee meeting the requirements of a contemporary battle field include:

proper spectrum characteristics of dyed filling material for all dyes which create a coloration camouflage preventing the equipment and objects camouflaged with coating BERBERYS from recognising with naked eye on the field during ground and air surveillance from the distance or height of 1000m and more as well as in the pictures taken in the scale 1: 5000 and less with picture line resolution 20 lines/mm;
reducing the effectivenes of thermal reconnaissance achieved by deformation of thermal image, changes in spatial radiation characteristics and reducing the thermal contrast between a camouflaged object and its background to the value k = 0.01 with temperature difference ± 4 K from the distnace of 1000 m.
reducing the factor of radiation reflection on equipment to such an extent so that to reduce technical distance of its detecting by radiolocation stations by 50% at least and diminishing maximum reflections of electromagnetic waves on camouflaged equipment on the level of 12 dB at least.

Coating consists of two basic construction elements: a carrier and filling material. The whole is supported with a sewn-around tape, to which some holders are attached serving the support of coating.
Both a carrier and filling material have camouflage properties.
Carrier material is an adequatly modified knitwear made from higly resistant polyester yarn. Apart from good resistant properties, what is significant in carriers, after conducting proper modification processes, yarn also gains properties in the scope of diffusing and absorption of electromagnetic radiation within radiolocation. Conducted research proved effectiveness of camouflage in accordance with requirements.
Apart from diffusing and absorbing properties of radiation in the radiolocation scope there was also achieved a satisfying radiation screeing effect in the thermal scope.
The purpose of filling material is camouflage in the optical scope.
Filling material is a properly modified knitwear made from polyester yarn.
Camouflage dying and patterns depend on a place where coating is to be applied. Other dyes will be in places where plant cover and others appear on the desert.

http://www.miranda.pl/?lang=en&ids=170&oferta=wojskowa


BTW - for compare:

 

[Bhadra]

The thread has gone commercial and on advertisement binge

 

[militarysta]

The thread has gone commercial and on advertisement binge

??
In what aspect? It's normal - post on some part of IFV/MBT protection and link to producent site. It's not add or marketing.

BTW: If it will be marketing I would not post picture with Intermat, Saab, and Nakidka. So I made marketing for four producents or it's rather normal post? Of course the biggest and most important part is about Berberys on Rosomak AMV - it's normal becouse Im from Poland and I pround for some technical solutions using in polish army - especially becouse very few people here know about it.
And it's rather normal that Akim will be post about powerfull ukrainian tank industry, Me and Damian about Polish (but I ver like Leopard-2 and Damian Abrams) and Methos will be post about German/Ostrisch indystry. So we all are lobbyst here? C'mon -it's not so simple.

Only one person who is confirmed propagandyst is Andriej_BT, Harkonnen, or Andiej Tarasenko -but its his job, so I can go with it

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Anyone know Rosoboronexport MK- 339 rounds for T-90S ??

 

[p2prada]

339 is BM-42. It is our designation for the shell.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MK-339 is bm-42 ? any links..

 

[p2prada]

Posted hundreds of time all over the place. AMK 338 is Israeli MK1. AMK 339 is BM-42. AMK-340A is our shell which failed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Link please..

 

[p2prada]

Link please..

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology.html

There you go.

 

[ice berg]

Well - it's still long long way before chineese industry to made tank on western tanks level. This tank, like older ones is still inferior when we compare it with western on even russian ones.

The term"western tank " is misleading at least. There are many manufacturers with different tanks.

Of course Internet is full of fanboys which are producing bullshit like "super-duper chineese 125mm AFSDS witch ~800/900/ ble ble bla perforation" and full of normal propagandists (like Andriej Tarasenko vel Herkonnen, vel Andriej BT)
In fact chineese 125mm APFSDS are clon of israeli CL3579 Mk.II and russian 3BM42 and like all clasic 125mm APFSDS have limits.
In fact it's look that:


When we we convert it to NATO norms we have:
APFSDS
RHA220 mm/68.5o - ~600mm RHA
RHA220mm/66.4o - ~550mm RHA
So it's russian late 80. level

Great how you using Kanwa as your source to denounce wiki/blog. That is like using one wiki source to attack another.

So we shoud remember about that - in internet there is everything - including awareness manipulation made by professional propagandists employees by tank industry.

Professional propagandists spend their time to manipulate fanboys on internet forums? How droll. Next you will claim those fanboys are the future decisionmakers.
I am pretty sure that decisionmakers dont browser through wiki to find out which tank to buy next.

 

[militarysta]

@UP


Give me two resons to belive in bullshit about super-duper chinesee 125mm APFSDS ammo, there is no one photo avaible whit longer then 3BM42 rod/penetrator, or longer then Israeli CL3579 Mk.II.

The term"western tank " is misleading at least. There are many manufacturers with different tank

Of course I was writting about "the big 3" - Leopard-2, Abrams, Leclerc.

Professional propagandists spend their time to manipulate fanboys on internet forums? How droll. Next you will claim those fanboys are the future decisionmakers.
I am pretty sure that decisionmakers dont browser through wiki to find out which tank to buy nex

Unfortunatly It's not true. Tank market is full of many path of making PR -one of it is PR in the internet area. First was Ukrainian tank industry with it rather agressive fight againt russian "brothers" -the same technology, simmilar capabilities. Of course it's not so simple and deal with Pakistan (T-80UD) was only the beginning of this "holly war". Action always make a reaction and Ghur Khan blog was developed and powerade by UWZ. Rest is well known. So, as I said -it's not so simple.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That is not the link..

 

[Damian]

About Chinese tanks. They use the same type of autoloader as T-72/T-90 series (AZ-125), it is known that with such autoloader and two piece ammunition used by it, there is a limitation of APFSDS ammunition penetrator lenght to maximum of ~700-740mm (If autoloader is a modernized type), this means that any claims of Chinese sources stating that they achieved some incredible penetration values with their ammunition are false, and most probably are lies, creation of some fanboys or something like that.

Additional point here should be a fact that metallurgy in PRC is definetly not better than in neighbour countries, and definetly not better than in countries with much greater experience in designing and manufacturing armored fighting vehicles.

BTW: Indonesia won't buy 100 Leopard 2A6 tanks from Netherlands, but will buy similiar number of tanks from German stocks. 50 will be Leopard 2A6's and another 50 will be upgraded Leopard 2A4's.

 

[Akim]

About Chinese tanks. They use the same type of autoloader as T-72/T-90 series (AZ-125), it is known that with such autoloader and two piece ammunition used by it, there is a limitation of APFSDS ammunition penetrator lenght to maximum of ~700-740mm (If autoloader is a modernized type), this means that any claims of Chinese sources stating that they achieved some incredible penetration values with their ammunition are false, and most probably are lies, creation of some fanboys or something like that.

Additional point here should be a fact that metallurgy in PRC is definetly not better than in neighbour countries, and definetly not better than in countries with much greater experience in designing and manufacturing armored fighting vehicles.

BTW: Indonesia won't buy 100 Leopard 2A6 tanks from Netherlands, but will buy similiar number of tanks from German stocks. 50 will be Leopard 2A6's and another 50 will be upgraded Leopard 2A4's.

Why you all persistently tie up length penetrations, with length core?! I doubt also, that the Chinese succeeded to attain declared резульатов, but long mandrel here not main. It can be compensated by initial velocity, diameter, coefficient losses of speed, a structure core material. 3BM42 has penetrations of of to 550 mm. of of 3BM32 has the same indexes, at which by sight evidently less length. But for him suck other form pressed and crimp rings and speed on 20 m/s anymore.

3BM42
3BM32
3BM48

 

[Damian]

Why you all persistently tie up length penetrations, with length core?!

Maybe this is because different understanding of this issue in west and east. AFAIK in west everything is counted, both core and whole penetrator lenght. There were attempts to even make ballistic cap of core a part of core/penetrator armor penetrating mechanism if You know what I mean.

It can be compensated by initial velocity, diameter, coefficient losses of speed, a structure core material. 3BM42 has penetrations of of to 550 mm. of of 3BM32 has the same indexes, at which by sight evidently less length. But for him suck other form pressed and crimp rings and speed on 20 m/s anymore.

Main problem with velocity (and velocity loss) of penetrators like 3BM42 and 3BM32 is that they use ring sabots. Ring sabot is lighter and smaller than for example western spool sabot but in the same time, ring sabot needs very big fins of penetrator for proper stabilization in gun barrel. Such big fins are reason why very fast APFSDS ammunition for 125mm guns, have much bigger velocity loss than longer and heavier western APFSDS ammunition, especially over longer distance.

 

[methos]

Professional propagandists spend their time to manipulate fanboys on internet forums? How droll. Next you will claim those fanboys are the future decisionmakers.
I am pretty sure that decisionmakers dont browser through wiki to find out which tank to buy next.

Official NORINCO brochure give the following penetration value for export rounds;
220 at 61.5° at 2,000 m. This is equivalent to ~450 mm at 0° at 2,000 m. That means 3BM-42 level.

Why you all persistently tie up length penetrations, with length core?! I doubt also, that the Chinese succeeded to attain declared резульатов, but long mandrel here not main. It can be compensated by initial velocity, diameter, coefficient losses of speed, a structure core material. 3BM42 has penetrations of of to 550 mm. of of 3BM32 has the same indexes, at which by sight evidently less length. But for him suck other form pressed and crimp rings and speed on 20 m/s anymore.

3BM-42 has a certified penetration of only 450 mm at 2,000 m, not 550 mm (unless you meant 550 mm at muzzle). For achieving it a 570 mm long projectile (with a 420 mm penetrator ["core"]) is fired at a muzzle velocity of 1,700 m/s.

Maybe this is because different understanding of this issue in west and east. AFAIK in west everything is counted, both core and whole penetrator lenght. There were attempts to even make ballistic cap of core a part of core/penetrator armor penetrating mechanism if You know what I mean.

WITU uses different values for penetrator and projectile length, so does Jane's. However the amount of "dead length" (i.e. the length occuipied by tracer/cap etc. which is not part of the penetrator) strongly differs by exact round. For 120 mm DM 33 the "core" is claimed to be 570 mm long, while the overall length is 640 mm. On the M829A1 however the total length is 780 mm, with the penetrator being only 684 mm long.