Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

I have not looked back through the posts in this thread, but is SP arty normally included with MBT discussion as far as armor technology is concerned? Asking because perhaps advanced armor technology is not critical to the role of SP arty. Or am I wrong?

Advanced armor technology is slowly integrated also with SP arty. Let's take for example German PzH2000, it have preatty interesting roof armor, so it can survive counter artillery attacks.

Very interesting design was also US XM2001 Crusader, AFAIK it was fitted with sort of light composite armor, and also crew was isolated from ammunition and propelant charges to increase their survivability.

So yes such technology is included, however progress is slower for SP Arty than MBT's, IFV's and APC's simply because artillery is less vurnable to enemy fire, while it is obvious that vehicles fighting on the first line need much more improved protection.

 

[Damian]

A bit of history this time. Object 432/T-64 armor scheme drawing.

It is from magazine "техника и вооружение" number 12 - 2012.

Note that due to cast turret nature of variable armor thickness, depending on place and angle, turret armor thickness will be different.

Drawing originally posted by "Harkonnen" on TankNet forums.

 

[kaustav2001]

Curious - the mock up of the missile show there is that a LAHAT by any chance ? Has the CT-CV 105mm cockerill gun fired a LAHAT ?

 

[Damian]

Curious - the mock up of the missile show there is that a LAHAT by any chance ? Has the CT-CV 105mm cockerill gun fired a LAHAT ?

This is not LAHAT but Falarick 105, designed in Ukraine by designing bureau Lucz. But of course in theory, it should be possible to fire LAHAT from this gun.

 

[kaustav2001]

Ok got it. Thanks

 

[methos]

Cockerill Maintenance & Ingénierie

 

[Akim]

Something new from Ukraine.

Unknown T-72 upgrade.

T-64E upgrade.

BMPV-64, one of T-64 based HAPC/HIFV or UCP platforms.

Good day! I'm sorry for my bad English - a long ago there was not practice.
This fast variant ukrainuan heavy BMP. Next variant have name BMPT-64. (1 and 2 variant) Kharkov Armoured Repair Plant (ХБТРЗ)
Heavy BMPT- 64 -this a good method will be delivered from surpluses of tanks remaining in Ukraine after disintegration of the USSR. It is a not export machine, because Т- 64 never left on an export, and nobody will want to take to itself the machine "Ð¥". Because, in spite of external likeness of Т- 72 and Т- 64 structure for themdifferent. Ukraine the only is country in the world who exploits Т- 64 (the Russian machines are shown out in reserve).
BMP is created, for maximal standardization with the Ukrainian tanks of Т-64BV and BM Bulat (ukr. moder. Т-64А and Т-64B), without the loss of fighting qualities.
I'm only only will complement only what did not say in a discussion of forum.
A machine has the armor tanks and by sight seems wider because, hinged Dynamic protection "Kontakt- 5" was substituted by built- "Duplet" able to resist to tandem cumulative ammunitions.
She is heavy and the natural does, not float Her task co-operating with tanks. Rapid Reaction Battalions a have of BMP-1U with the module "Shcval".
Into the uninhabited tower the independent module is built with 23-мм cannons, for the fight of machine in town locality, where firing is the upper floors with the rapid transfer of fire. This module can be easily replaced on other in composition which 2 machine guns 7.62 and 12.7 мм., with adjustment of breech-sight. Tower of иметет only bulletproof and anticomminuting booking and she is autonomous from a battle separation
4 ATGM "Barrier" (ukr. analogue of ATGM "Cornet") are on a tower and 4 into a machine Ammunition of the gun makes 450 shells. Angle of rise of cannon - 6 +75 hail.
Smoke such from an engine, because he is push-pull. And on the experienced machines there was no special filters. do not stand and butter strongly burns. But he does not lose power in mountains and at the high temperatures of air. Exhausts of engine both-side and in the case of necessity can create additional smoke defence.
Side loop-holes are not needed. In motion getting from them is impossible but they create weak areas in machine.
Arm- chairs - individual, anatomical, shock-absorbing.
Actually she one class with German BMP "Puma" but costs in several times cheaper.
Now a machine passes military tests
For an export similar machines are worked out on a base Т- 55 and Т- 72 with the Ukrainian engine of 5TDFM.
On the base of platform it is possible to create MLRS to 220-240 мм., heavy mortar to 240-мм., MGS, range air DEFENCE, howitzer artillery by a caliber to 155-мм.

 

[Akim]

Curious - the mock up of the missile show there is that a LAHAT by any chance ? Has the CT-CV 105mm cockerill gun fired a LAHAT ?

Ukrainian guided shell, just imposition of the technologies on the standards of NATO. All depends on the system of correction. If they are compatible, then firing shells of other developers is possible.

 

[Damian]

Ukrainian guided shell, just imposition of the technologies on the standards of NATO. All depends on the system of correction. If they are compatible, then firing shells of other developers is possible.

If You did not notice, I allready answered to Kaustav question, that Falarick 105 is designed by Ukrainian design bureau Lucz.

As I suspect Falarick 105 just like Kombat is based on 9M128 Agona.

 

[Akim]

If You did not notice, I allready answered to Kaustav question, that Falarick 105 is designed by Ukrainian design bureau Lucz.

As I suspect Falarick 105 just like Kombat is based on 9M128 Agona.

I did not contest Your, answer I simply complemented him a bit. Shell 9M128 Agona controlled by radio channel. Together with the complex 9K112 they were poorly protected. At the end of 80th to them came on changing of 9К119 (AT - 11 Sniper) with a control on a laser. 125-мм Kombat (120 mm Conus, Falarick 105) his children- only better.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

I did not contest Your, answer I simply complemented him a bit. Shell 9M128 Agona was managed on a radio channel. Together with the complex 9K112 they were poorly protected. At the end of 80th to them came on changing of 9К119 (AT - 11 Sniper) with a management on a laser. 125-мм Kombat (120 mm Conus, Falarick 105) his children- only better.

The tech progress of projectiles in the past 30 years has been phenomenal.

Asking the experts here, would that subject be a useful separate thread (assuming there isn't one already)?

 

[Akim]

The tech progress of projectiles in the past 30 years has been phenomenal.

Asking the experts here, would that subject be a useful separate thread (assuming there isn't one already)?

Shell(projectiles ) Please. If all is not difficult you remedy me sometimes, I do not communicate in English at home.

Projectiles with the laser aiming as though it was been supplied nobody. Even the Belgian shell it is a not complete model of Kombat. They are secret.

 

[Damian]

Shell 9M128 Agona controlled by radio channel. Together with the complex 9K112 they were poorly protected. At the end of 80th to them came on changing of 9К119 (AT - 11 Sniper) with a control on a laser. 125-мм Kombat (120 mm Conus, Falarick 105) his children- only better.

It looks different.

9K112 is a complete system (guiding + missile), And yes it was not perfect. 9M128 Agona is radio guided sorry, I done a correction, my mistake.

So Kombat and other Ukrainian GLATGM's like Falarick or Conus are as a missile based more or less on 9M128 Agona, but have a guidance system similiar to 9M119.

 

[Akim]

It looks different.

9K112 is a complete system (guiding + missile), And yes it was not perfect. 9M128 Agona is radio guided sorry, I done a correction, my mistake.

So Kombat and other Ukrainian GLATGM's like Falarick or Conus are as a missile based more or less on 9M128 Agona, but have a guidance system similiar to 9M119.

Agona differed from Cobra to those that she had increased defeat of thickness armor. She was a control by the same method. When Reflex of 9К119 appeared with the same parameters, but with a control on a laser, a necessity fell off in Agon. Even speed of tank at firing of risen to 40 km / h, and it was only 30.

 

[Akim]

I wanted to ask. Why is the wheeled antitank needed? Rosomak Centauo, Stryker MGS. His cannon is not able to deal with modern tanks., and an armour will protect 14.5 мм. only from bullets. Here and Russians are interested in the Italian armored vehicles.

 

[Damian]

I wanted to ask. Why is the wheeled antitank needed? Rosomak Centauo, Stryker MGS. His cannon is not able to deal with modern tanks., and an armour will protect 14.5 мм. only from bullets. Here and Russians are interested in the Italian armored vehicles.

Centauro B1 is indeed designed as a tank destroyer, however it was designed to fight with less advanced tanks (T-55, T-62) that do not have modern composite armors. But, You should check modern 105mm APFSDS ammunition, for example US M900 APFSDS for 105mm rifled guns, is preaty descent ammo, capable to do much damage even to modern tanks.

As for other vehicles like proposed Rosomak variant and M1128 MGS Stryker, these are not tank destroyers, they are direct fire support vehicles. They are modern analog to WWII StuG's, literally a self propelled gun that give fire support for infantry.

 

[Akim]

As for other vehicles like proposed Rosomak variant and M1128 MGS Stryker, these are not tank destroyers, they are direct fire support vehicles. They are modern analog to WWII StuG's, literally a self propelled gun that give fire support for infantry.[/QUOTE]


If Rosomak not tank destroyer what is the fate of light tank which Anders?

 

[Damian]

As for other vehicles like proposed Rosomak variant and M1128 MGS Stryker, these are not tank destroyers, they are direct fire support vehicles. They are modern analog to WWII StuG's, literally a self propelled gun that give fire support for infantry.

If Rosomak not tank destroyer what is the fate of easy tank which Anders?

Rosomak is a wheeled platform for different vehicle variants, a direct fire support variant with 105mm rifled gun is only proposal, and Polish Army have different priorities, but if a foreing customer want Rosomak armed with such a gun, I'am sure there would be no technical problems so WZM could manufacture such variant for a foreing client.

As for Anders, it is also a platform for different vehicles. It was initially presented in a light tank/direct fire support variant because it is the most dofficult variant to be made. But it is also not a priority for Polish Army to purchase such vehicles. Priority is new IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) and other specialized variants to replace BMP-1 and MT-LB variants. LT/DFS variant have a low priority for Polish Army because we want to spent more money on Leopard 2A4 tanks modernization, and later a new tank (new design or something that us currently used, be it even more Leopard 2's in more modern variant) to completely replace T-72/PT-91 family of vehicles.

There are different ideas, for example there is an early phase study for requirements for a new tank. This study (not a tank) have a codename "Wilk" (Wolf). However new tank is still not even in designing phase. In fact our R&D teams are currently more focused on light and medium vehicles, for example there is currently developed another tracked platform besides Anders, but this time amphibious and with hybrid engine, not a Diesel one.

 

[militarysta]

@Akim

I wanted to ask. Why is the wheeled antitank needed? Rosomak Centauo, Stryker MGS. His cannon is not able to deal with modern tanks., and an armour will protect 14.5 мм. only from bullets.

Not only:
Basic polish AMV "Rosomak" have STANAG 4569 level IV for +/- 60. for front hull and turret (14,5mm AP), and for rest of APC/IFV level III (7,62mm AP/WC core ).
Afgan Rosomak have improved armour to STANAG 4569 level IV for whole (around) APC/IFV, and this anti-RPG protection.
Frontal modular armour can withstand PG-7W granade ad this angle of incidence as in the photograph - tested in poland PG-7W granade have about 330-420mm RHA penetration and they are far far better then this Chineese and Pakistan's clones spoted and taken in Afganistan. This what Pakistan an Chineese factory produce can achive only ~300mm for PG-7W. Poor quality and it's next lucky thing for our troops in A-stan.
This frontal modular amrour (and armour between double sides of the vehicle hull) weight 3500kg, apart this they are on "afgan" "Rosomak" anti-rpg pannels RPGnet produced by Qinetiq - , whole RPGnet for Rosomak weight about 350-500kg. What is interesting:
-normal cage armor can stopp about 40-50% RPGs granade
-cage armor made by WITU is lighter and can stop about 60-65% RPGs granade
- LASSO, made by RUAG has similar capabilities
But only this funny RPGnet can stopp more ten 65% granade including newer grenades - PG-7VL PG-7VR, etc and its lighter then LASSO -so it was choosen for "Afgan Rosomak" (Rosomak-M1M in polish nomenclature).

His cannon is not able to deal with modern tanks.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/...060-series-Mecar-APFSDS-T-rounds-Belgium.html
Wel new 105mm APFSDS whit tungsten rod can achive on 2000m 560mm RHA on ~1000m it will be about 600mm RHA, so it's helly dangerous for most tanks . maybe not for Oplot-M, Leopard-2A5/A7, and M1A2, but this perforation values ae dangerosus for almous all not top-modern tanks, and for sides even for them.

Actually she one class with German BMP "Puma" but costs in several times cheaper.

Im think that BMPT- 64 look quite pretty but SPz Puma is just on the top - it's just impossible to compare BMPT- 64 and SPz Puma.
Puma was developed after more then 20 yers of developmend and tested more then 18 prototypes, and almous in all apects it's just far far better then all IFV (BMP). It's just impossible to made smth like Puma without many years, money and testing dozens of prototypes. BMPT- 64 looks simmilar to the SPz Puma but it's still not the same level.

In Poland during making Anders IFV we have the same "it's looks like SPz Puma, or ASCOD, or Ulan/Pizzaro, etc" well it's sad to said that but when IFV is cheap and made without almoust decade developmend study it's can't be comparable. The same story was when Patria AMV was tested against polish made "Rys" (Lynx) wheeld armoured transporter. In story end just AMV won trade for polish army for next generation BTR. So (no offence against Yours opinnion) I have serious doubt if we can say that BMPT- 64 is on SPz Puma level.

@Damian:

I haven't time and wish of descripsions. Would You be so kind and write about this what I made?

 

[methos]

Actually she one class with German BMP "Puma" but costs in several times cheaper.

A very optimistic statement. Only the frontal armour (and that only because of Duplet) might be similar in performance to that of the Puma. But where is the heavy side armour resisting medium caliber APFSDS? Where is the roof armour protecting against bomblets? Where is the APS which protects against ATGMs? Does the BMPV-64/BMPT-64 have a decoupled running gear? Where are the thermals of the Ukranian vehicles? What about the ammunition, does it have ABM rounds, APFSDS rounds and F&F missiles? A specialized grenade launcher for close combat?
Puma is better protected (all-round and mine-protection are at least stronger), does have better armament (weapon and sights) and also more sophisticated running gear and transmission.