M777 ultra-light howitzers to Indian Army

garg_bharat

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Let us be true to our self. M777 is made up of Titanium and Aluminium alloy which does make it ultra light in comparison to the contemporary howitzer. As far as making howitzers is concerned, India could sure make it, but quote a source which says that right now we could carve one from Titanium and Aluminium alloy.

I never said that India could never make one, I just said that at present our metallurgy is not matured enough to make one in near future.
It does not matter what this gun barrel is made of. A product is made with given specs. Another alloy can have similar performance.

Bharat Forge can make a gun with a different alloy barrel, and still produce similar performance.

You are not getting the point here. You just stick to one thing you know or read somewhere.
 

Chinmoy

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It does not matter what this gun barrel is made of. A product is made with given specs. Another alloy can have similar performance.

Bharat Forge can make a gun with a different alloy barrel, and still produce similar performance.

You are not getting the point here. You just stick to one thing you know or read somewhere.
Now you see why I said that we are in a nascent stage of metallurgy. If you want to compare Titanium with any other metal, you are most welcome.
 

Chinmoy

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I think it has some advanced radar & targeting system too because of which it is so costly .
It does have autonomous ranging and targeting system. Moreover its composition does effect its cost too.
 

Chinmoy

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It does not matter what this gun barrel is made of. A product is made with given specs. Another alloy can have similar performance.

Bharat Forge can make a gun with a different alloy barrel, and still produce similar performance.

You are not getting the point here. You just stick to one thing you know or read somewhere.
Moreover its not just the barrel which make up a gun.
 

garg_bharat

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@Chinmoy, you are just making things up. What is your knowledge of metallurgy? Do you even have an engineering degree.

When non-experts try to become experts, only BS comes out.

The point here is very simple, that a similar gun can be made in India. However army's procurement process is very complex and time consuming. So to save time, existing arrangements are being used.

A new competition to select another gun will take years. This is why M777 was approved. In parallel OFB is making 155mm guns. It is well known that Army's artillery shortage is acute.
 

Chinmoy

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@Chinmoy, you are just making things up. What is your knowledge of metallurgy? Do you even have an engineering degree.

When non-experts try to become experts, only BS comes out.

The point here is very simple, that a similar gun can be made in India. However army's procurement process is very complex and time consuming. So to save time, existing arrangements are being used.

A new competition to select another gun will take years. This is why M777 was approved. In parallel OFB is making 155mm guns. It is well known that Army's artillery shortage is acute.
It is a known fact that IA does have a acute shortage of field guns and howitzers and M-777 does fulfill all the current requirement to get employed. But again you have to keep in mind that India is developing and in process of inducting Dhanush, the desi variant of FH77. Now M 777 with its weight and range (although less then Dhanush with contemporary shell) is perfect for mountain warfare. Denying the fact that IA is getting M777 just for its tech would be a stupidity. Its the need of the hour.

But look at some of the basic problems we are facing in weapons R&D. The problem Kaveri faced due to heat resisting alloy is well known. One of the factor why it has been so delayed goes to this simple metallurgical failure and we are still working on it. A gun could be made of cast iron too and in fact it would be more robust then many guns of today. But would it be a logical step?

I never denied that we can't develop a much better gun then M777. Dhanush is a good example. But again, its not a matter of clicking your fingers. It would take time and it would be a gradual step. Even SAIL took around 30 40 years to develop and deliver weapon grade steel to ship builders in India for Navy. The point is, if you have a better tech at hand, then its good to capitalize on it and try to make it best.
 

garg_bharat

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I am very confident that private sector will make gun/howitzers for the Army. It is just a matter of 2-3 years at the most.

M777 will also help the Indian industry learn.
 

Chinmoy

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I am very confident that private sector will make gun/howitzers for the Army. It is just a matter of 2-3 years at the most.

M777 will also help the Indian industry learn.
That's what we need. And in the mean time we need to make some small developments in 'not so small anymore' fields to help ourself.
 

sorcerer

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Mountain Warfare Against China: US Plans to Sell 145 Guns to India


On February 15, the United States submitted a letter of acceptance to India’s Ministry of Defense (MOD) approving the procurement of 145 M777 Ultra Lightweight Howitzers for the Indian Army, The Times of India reports.

According to sources within India’s MOD, the Pentagon’s letter of acceptance, submitted under the U.S. foreign military sales (FMS) program, will lead to a government-to-government contract within the next 180 days, should New Delhi accept the offer.

The $700 million deal has been in the making since 2008. It suffered from repeated delays and was close to being scrapped until the Indian government under Prime Minister Narendra Modi revived negotiations with the U.S. government and the defense contractor BAE Systems, the producer of the M777 155 mm 39-caliber towed gun, last year.

The Pentagon’s offer for the 145 lightweight howitzers–next to outlining delivery schedules, technical, material, and spares support–also includes a 30 percent offset clause under the “Make in India” initiative. This mandatory offset requires that 30 percent (around $210 million) of the contract value needs to be reinvested back into India’s indigenous aviation or defense sector.
“While the first lot will be delivered directly, the bulk of the 145 howitzers (manufactured by BAE Systems) will be assembled in India over three years,” according to a MOD source.
BAE Systems announced last week that it will partner with the Indian company Mahindra to fulfil the requirements of the “Make in India” clause and offer a higher degree of indigenization on the M777 lightweight howitzers.

“As a founding partner of defense manufacturing in India, BAE Systems is pleased to partner with Mahindra on our offer to develop an Assembly, Integration and Test facility in India. The facility is a fundamental part of the M777 production line,” said a representative of BAE Systems.
“A domestic Assembly, Integration and Test facility will enable the Indian Army to access maintenance, spares and support for the M777 locally. We will continue to support the two Governments to progress to contract agreement so that we may begin the process of ‘Make in India’ for M777.”

The M777 allegedly is the world’s first 155 millimeter howitzer weighing less than 10,000 pounds (4,218 kilograms). Partly made of titanium, the gun can be airlifted swiftly to high-altitude terrain and is ideally suited for mountain warfare.

The M777 has a firing range of up to 25 kilometers.


The Indian Army plans to induct the new gun into its new 17 Mountain Strike Corps, which is to be stood up by 2021. The new corps, intended to counter China’s growing capabilities, originally was supposed to have a strength of 90,274 men.

However, in April 2015, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar announced that he would cut the size of the corps by more than half, to 35,000.

The Indian military has not been able to procure a new howitzer since 1987, despite the known utility of artillery in mountain warfare as seen in the 1999 Kargil War with Pakistan. As I reported previously, the Indian army’s 1999 Field Artillery Rationalization Plan aimed to acquire 2,800-3,000 155 mm/52-caliber guns of all kinds and 155 mm/39-caliber lightweight howitzers by 2027.
Source>>
 

Zebra

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https://defense-update.com/20160329_m777er.html

Extended Range Modifications Could Double the Range of Current Howitzers


By News Desk -
Mar 29, 2016


The newly modified M777A2 howitzer has the potential to double the system's current artillery range. Benet Labs designed the tube and Picatinny designed all of the carriage modifications. Photo by Erin Usawicz.


Picatinny Arsenal engineers have been working to create a longer, newly modified M777A2 howitzer that has the potential to double the range of current M777 artillery systems. Charged with developing technology to extend the range of all 155mm artillery, the Extended Range Cannon Artillery (ERCA) project is funded by science and technology office at the US Army Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC).

The ERCA program evaluates the introduction of a longer barrel, developed for the XM907 Common Cannon Assembly Support system, as well as the XM1113 rocket assisted projectile and XM654 supercharge, an autoloader and new fire control system. The program is funded program by the Army and the Marine Corps.

With nearly 1,000 pounds (453 kg) added to the system’s overall weight and an additional six feet (1.82 m’) of cannon tube, the demonstration is taking place to give the Soldiers and Marines more confidence that the gun will still meet all of its mobility requirements.

The Army Program Manager Towed Artillery Systems, (PM-TAS) has already demonstrated a modified M777A2 Howitzer with an integration kit for the mass mock-up of the modified XM907 ERCA cannon at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona. Follow-on mobility testing will be conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, to document the changes in mobility from a standard M777A2, if any.

After the ERCA program, the M777ER program is engaged in making sure that ERCA’s system is suitable for the M777 system.
The final ERCA system will be demonstrated with an M109A7 system, which is the Paladin self-propelled howitzer.

“The ERCA program is developing the cannon to give it more range. PM-TAS is doing the demonstration to the Marines to show how it would look, feel and move when integrated into the M777A2 carriage,” said David Bound, M777ER Lead, Artillery Concepts and Design Branch, which is part of ARDEC. At this stage the demonstration will not include firing the weapon, but will show how the gun responds when it travels and how it feels when the crew interacts with the controls. “Right now (the M777) can shoot about 30 kilometers, but once all of the upgrades are complete it will be able to shoot about 70 kilometers,” said Bound.

“The visual prejudice we are up against is that it looks like it may tip over with all that extra cannon. We are trying to increase confidence that the M777 is an acceptable candidate for an extended range upgrade” said Bound. In efforts to ensure that the gun will meet all of its requirements, a mobility cannon tube was created.

The mobility tube consists of an old 52-caliber tube that was modified to fit into an M777A2 at the weight of the XM907. Additionally, grooves were added to the exterior of the tube to allow Picatinny engineers to hang weights at different positions, enabling them to move the center of gravity of the weapon forward or rear.

This cannon will allow the Army and the Marines to assess the impacts to the M777 and how it’s operated as the ERCA program optimizes the cannon design.

“The weights allow the Center of Gravity to move and get to the point where we can start towing this around as the configuration of the tube changes as the ERCA figures out what they want to do because it’s in flux right now,” said Bound.

“We are able to replicate how that tube reacts in the system using the different weight configurations. Then, we can hook this up to a truck so we can see what the users can expect from a human-factors point of view of how much harder it is to elevate, traverse back and forth, and what the trucks are going to see as they tow the system around,” said Bound.
 

dineshchaturvedi

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When will Parikar sign the contract to buy it ? Will it be in 2050?
I do not think we are buying it. There was talk of local options. Heard a light weight local product is coming up.
Parikar and Modi wants make in India. They can wait but want to reduce future arms import this is biggest item in their list.
 

Chinmoy

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I do not think we are buying it. There was talk of local options. Heard a light weight local product is coming up.
Parikar and Modi wants make in India. They can wait but want to reduce future arms import this is biggest item in their list.
It would come to India. Another option which is doing round is that been offered by Kalyani group. But it would be years away form induction.

But I think it would be inducted with a little twist. GoI would not go for off the self purchase. I think Make in India and TOT would be involved in this case too. Anyway we could expect anything on this by the end of the year only.
 

kstriya

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M777 will be costlier, we should give a chance to Kalyani built light arty guns. We should have a comparative trials of both the guns for the Indian conditions. And then decide which one to procure.
 

ezsasa

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M777 is going to come, Americans did not give all those supports for free.

Given the prospective requirements, there is plenty of space for domestic manufacturers.
 

Chinmoy

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I guess arty rounds are much cheaper than pinaka. Pinaka is not suitable for tall mountains.
Actually what you are talking about is the Excalibur round of M777. Neither Artillery round, nor unguided missiles are good for mountain warfare.

But the recent development of Pinaka 2 is changing all these with GPS/ IRNSS guided smart rockets.
 

Shaitan

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I do not think we are buying it. There was talk of local options. Heard a light weight local product is coming up.
Parikar and Modi wants make in India. They can wait but want to reduce future arms import this is biggest item in their list.

M777 will surely be inducted. Mahindra is producing a assembly plant to assemble and test M777s.

 

HariPrasad-1

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M777 will be costlier, we should give a chance to Kalyani built light arty guns. We should have a comparative trials of both the guns for the Indian conditions. And then decide which one to procure.
It is atleast 5 years away. What will you do till than. Ofcourse, we have 17 KM range light gun of BABA kalyani in our arsenal but is it enough. A 40 KM range Howitzer of ultra light weight shall give a Fu***ng fire power in mountain particularly against China.
 

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