LVM3/GSLV Mark III News, Discussions, Updates and Reports

[pmaitra]

The Vikas Engine was more promising. It is based on a tried and tested French design, and India had experienced and skilled manpower who had worked on the French engine which the Vikas is based on. It was a pragmatic choice to pool all resources onto the Vikas.

 

[CrYsIs]

The Vikas Engine was more promising. It is based on a tried and tested French design, and India had experienced and skilled manpower who had worked on the French engine which the Vikas is based on. It was a pragmatic choice to pool all resources onto the Vikas.

Yes thats true but there was no need of shelving the Semi cryogenic project.Even back then they knew Vikas's limitation and the future viability of semi cryogenics,but still then they went with the french engine.

While one team developed the Vikas,the other team could have carried on with the research on Semi cryogenics.They might not have developed a full engine but atleast they could have build some basic infrastructure or carried out component level testings which they are doing now.

 

[tramp]

Yes thats true but there was no need of shelving the Semi cryogenic project.Even back then they knew Vikas's limitation and the future viability of semi cryogenics,but still then they went with the french engine.

While one team developed the Vikas,the other team could have carried on with the research on Semi cryogenics.They might not have developed a full engine but atleast they could have build some basic infrastructure or carried out component level testings which they are doing now.

Wonder if budgetary constraints back then led to focus on one programme to the exclusion of the other. There are reasons to believe that the financial constraints were very real for the nation at that time.

 

[shiphone]

one of my colleagues happened to read my post and has just reminded me of the specialty of GSLV MK.3 design decision. so I was wrong on the L110 's first stage/Second stage problem...sorry about that...

2nd stage we will use 2 vikas engine ( L-110) which is a liquid fuel rocket engine

the L-110 on GSLV MK.3 is first stage(core stage) , but works as the second stage... the L-110 doesn't work at the lift-off time Zero ,but would only be ignited when the two S-200 booster finish working and separate, which is around 100+ seconds later. it has a mid-air ignition process. so technically GSLV MK.3 has no the real sense of " first stage" but the two "boosters" works as the first stage....

 

[CrYsIs]

Wonder if budgetary constraints back then led to focus on one programme to the exclusion of the other. There are reasons to believe that the financial constraints were very real for the nation at that time.

Might be the case but i believe they had military spin-off applications in mind.Since cryogenics based engines has no real use in military,therefore they went for earth strable and solid boosters

 

[karn]

India already had began research activities on Semi cryogenic engine in the 70's with a model engine testing.But instead of going for Semi cryogenic,the then ISRO leadership went for Vikas and Solid motor boosters based launch vehicles. So after spending 3.48 crores and building a model engine,the whole project was shelved untill the early 2000's.


According to Dr. Vasant Gowariker,Secretary,Department of Science and Technology there was plans for building a 75 tonnes semi cryogenic engine and India could have easily achieved that but the ISRO leadership succumbed under the pressue of the Vikas team and cancelled the Semi cryogenic project.

You can read the entire story here --->Delayed launch

Yes I had read that article and I maintain that the scientists mentioned are overstaing their ability . Designing closed cycle cryogenic engines is a challenge I took a huge effort by the soviets to perfect them . There is a reason why so many American rockets use Russian engines today . Even for the SCE 160 today ISRO is still trying to determine whether the country has all the material science to construct such an engine . Gas generator open cycle engines are easier sure but are as much as 15-20 % less thrust compared to a closed cycle engine .
I was so dissapointed to learn that the CE 20 is a gas generator engine .
Watch this

 

[karn]

@shiphone
Yep, the S200s have a combined thrust of more than 10000KN doesn't make much sense to light the 1400KN L110 engine and waste fuel .

 

[CrYsIs]

Yes I had read that article and I maintain that the scientists mentioned are overstaing their ability . Designing closed cycle cryogenic engines is a challenge I took a huge effort by the soviets to perfect them . There is a reason why so many American rockets use Russian engines today . Even for the SCE 160 today ISRO is still trying to determine whether the country has all the material science to construct such an engine . Gas generator open cycle engines are easier sure but are as much as 15-20 % less thrust compared to a closed cycle engine .
I was so dissapointed to learn that the CE 20 is a gas generator engine .

Probably they were not into building a full fledged engine but carrying out research activities which should not have been stopped.The American use of Russian RP1/Lox is not a matter of technology but a matter of economics,they too had that engine technology since the 60's but it was more convenient and cheaper to buy a Russian engine than build an entire engine by yourself.

 

[karn]

Probably they were not into building a full fledged engine but carrying out research activities which should not have been stopped.The American use of Russian RP1/Lox is not a matter of technology but a matter of economics,they too had that engine technology since the 60's but it was more convenient and cheaper to buy a Russian engine than build an entire engine by yourself.

There was work done . ISRO was able to narrow down on the standard of fuel to be used .
Watch the video , the americans could not believe that engines as efficient as the NK 33 were possible or that closed cycle engines were feasible from an engineering standpoint . The US government only a few months back asked the industry to develop a replacement for the RD 180 and spaceX is "promising " to build the raptor engine . But we will see . The americans are still playing catchup.

 

[warrior monk]

ISRO has started working on semi cryogenic engines much earlier but got major thrust since 2007 and project is already in the advanced stage of completion . The Semi Cryogenic Engine (SCE) will be used to power the booster stages of Common Liquid Core of the future unified Launch Vehicle (ULV) of ISRO. It is going to have a very high specific impulse for any particular propellant combination making it high propellant-efficient.
The SCE will be a 2000kN engine and will work on oxidizer rich staged combustion cycle using LOX and ISR ((Refined Kerosene) propellant combination at a chamber pressure of 18.0MpaS.ISRO is working on both gas generator cycle and staged combustion cycle . Gas generated cycle the ability to test the individual elements and higher reliability with low specific impulse.

The thrust chamber ( TC) of the SCE in in near completion only the injecter performance at main engine level testing is taking time to master The injector has been tested up to 55% of rated condition. Combustion efficiencies up to 80% have been achieved and efficiency up to 90% when operated in nominal operating conditions will be achieved. To feed the injector element with oxidizer rich hot gas a Preburner using GOX/Isrosene as propellants has been completed. Ignition of LOX/Isrosene propellant with hypergolic slug igniter and flame holding and creation of Hayness-214 material (high temp oxidation resistance) have been completed.
So work done on combustion chamber and nozzle ignition in TC ( Thrust chamber) have high rate of advancement.


An Integrated Cryogenic Engine Manufacturing Facility (ICMF) will be set-up at HAL's Aerospace Division in Bangalore and the division will manufacture cryogenic/semi cryogenic engines for ISRO.It is an important project because realizing a Two Stage to Orbit (TSTO) fully reusable space vehicle is one of ISRO's dream and SCE will help realize it in future. The semi cryogenic engine is expected to be ready by 2017-18 timeframe.
P.S - we are ten years away for maturity of SCE after its first test that is near 2025-30 timeframe for engine maturity.

 

[CrYsIs]

One Interesting fact about this Semi cryogenic engine is that it is based on designs given to us by Ukraine.

The engine is based on RD 810 of Yuzhnoye

 

[karn]

ISRO has started working on semi cryogenic engines much earlier but got major thrust since 2007 and project is already in the advanced stage of completion . The Semi Cryogenic Engine (SCE) will be used to power the booster stages of Common Liquid Core of the future unified Launch Vehicle (ULV) of ISRO. It is going to have a very high specific impulse for any particular propellant combination making it high propellant-efficient.
The SCE will be a 2000kN engine and will work on oxidizer rich staged combustion cycle using LOX and ISR ((Refined Kerosene) propellant combination at a chamber pressure of 18.0MpaS.ISRO is working on both gas generator cycle and staged combustion cycle . Gas generated cycle the ability to test the individual elements and higher reliability with low specific impulse.

The thrust chamber ( TC) of the SCE in in near completion only the injecter performance at main engine level testing is taking time to master The injector has been tested up to 55% of rated condition. Combustion efficiencies up to 80% have been achieved and efficiency up to 90% when operated in nominal operating conditions will be achieved. To feed the injector element with oxidizer rich hot gas a Preburner using GOX/Isrosene as propellants has been completed. Ignition of LOX/Isrosene propellant with hypergolic slug igniter and flame holding and creation of Hayness-214 material (high temp oxidation resistance) have been completed.
So work done on combustion chamber and nozzle ignition in TC ( Thrust chamber) have high rate of advancement.


An Integrated Cryogenic Engine Manufacturing Facility (ICMF) will be set-up at HAL's Aerospace Division in Bangalore and the division will manufacture cryogenic/semi cryogenic engines for ISRO.It is an important project because realizing a Two Stage to Orbit (TSTO) fully reusable space vehicle is one of ISRO's dream and SCE will help realize it in future. The semi cryogenic engine is expected to be ready by 2017-18 timeframe.
P.S - we are ten years away for maturity of SCE after its first test that is near 2025-30 timeframe for engine maturity.

Can you give me te source of that . I thought that the engine has not even started cold flow test yet . Where do the combustion efficiency numbers come from ?
Injector and igniter sounds right I read that on the ISRO page .

 

[karn]

One Interesting fact about this Semi cryogenic engine is that it is based on designs given to us by Ukraine.

The engine is based on RD 810 of Yuzhnoye

Cable: 07KYIV2245_a
I think this has been posted before.
You need to scroll down a bit.

 

[warrior monk]

Can you give me te source of that . I thought that the engine has not even started cold flow test yet . Where do the combustion efficiency numbers come from ?
Injector and igniter sounds right I read that on the ISRO page .

I don't think engine integration has happened let alone cold flow test for the complete engine but Preburner and Thrust Chamber ( which produces hot gas in the chamber at high temperature through the nozzle for generating thrust) have undergone cold flow characteristic test and hot test results initially .
Characterization of injector elements, performance validation at operating conditions, Ignition characteristics of hypergolic liquid (In our case a mixture of Tri-ethyl Aluminium and Tri-ethyl Boron TEA/TEB) , validation of material are in different stages of development mostly in mid to advanced stages.
Well for the injector element part of the thrust SEIH ( Single element injector head) has already been fabricated and has already undergone cold flow test are carried out and hot test have been done. multi element interaction is yet to commence .

Various cold flow and hot tests are been done on various parts of the engine not the complete engine which is yet to have integration. The engine is 3 years away from testing phase.
For various test results on some of the tests on various systems being carried out you can visit the Indian journal Home - IJIRSET::HIGH IMPACT FACTOR JOURNAL: 1.682 it is a peer reviewed journal having good citations look for special issue in 2013 you will find abstracts for research papers concerning SCE.

 

[karn]

I don't think engine integration has happened let alone cold flow test for the complete engine but Preburner and Thrust Chamber ( which produces hot gas in the chamber at high temperature through the nozzle for generating thrust) have undergone cold flow characteristic test and hot test results initially .
Characterization of injector elements, performance validation at operating conditions, Ignition characteristics of hypergolic liquid (In our case a mixture of Tri-ethyl Aluminium and Tri-ethyl Boron TEA/TEB) , validation of material are in different stages of development mostly in mid to advanced stages.
Well for the injector element part of the thrust SEIH ( Single element injector head) has already been fabricated and has already undergone cold flow test are carried out and hot test have been done. multi element interaction is yet to commence .

Various cold flow and hot tests are been done on various parts of the engine not the complete engine which is yet to have integration. The engine is 3 years away from testing phase.
For various test results on some of the tests on various systems being carried out you can visit the Indian journal Home - IJIRSET::HIGH IMPACT FACTOR JOURNAL: 1.682 it is a peer reviewed journal having good citations look for special issue in 2013 you will find abstracts for research papers concerning SCE.

Thanks for the link ..
I really wish that the government would throw more money at ISRO . It is one organisation that really gives a good return on investment .

 

[CrYsIs]

Cable: 07KYIV2245_a
I think this has been posted before.
You need to scroll down a bit.

Whats interesting is that Ukraine is giving designs on engines which it itself does not have the capacity to build

 

[CrYsIs]

GSLV 3 Launch date - 18th dec
GSLV Mark-III launch on Dec. 18 - The Hindu

 

[karn]

Shamelessly taken from nasaspaceforum

gslv-mkiii-x-1.jpg: The two S200 Strap-ons during the integration of the vehicle

gslv-mkiii-x-2.jpg: L110 Liquid Core Stage being prepared at Stage Preparation Facility

gslv-mkiii-x-3.jpg: The partially integrated vehicle with S200 Strap-ons and L110 Core Stage outside the Vehicle Assembly Building

gslv-mkiii-x-4.jpg: The passive C25 Cryogenic Upper Stage being hoisted at Vehicle Assembly Building

gslv-mkiii-x-5.jpg: Integration of the passive C25 Cryogenic Upper Stage with L110 liquid Core Stage in Progress at Vehicle Assembly Building

 

[shiphone]

Shamelessly taken from ISRO.....LOL

Welcome To Indian Space Research Organisation - Launch Vehicle - Image Gallery -

 

[CrYsIs]