LOC, LAC & International Border skirmishs

[Bornubus]

Edit : So technically since Uri attack Govt has cleared 32000 Crores for WWR stock ..Now we need to see how much of this is imported and how much from Local OFB as i read some where OFB produces 90 % of our ammunition's ...

We imported RCL ammunition last year even though we have been producing it locally for a long time now.

Just an example

 

[pankaj nema]

“We have taught Pakistan a lesson. They have been given befitting response. There have been massive losses on Pakistan side. I can’t tell everything here,” Jaitley said in the Parliament while replying to members’ concerned.

“Pakistan has been taught such a lesson, which was never given in the history,” he said.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/another-army-jawan-martyred-loc/

 

[Poseidon]

One soldier injured today afternoon in Rajouri after he was hit in the shoulder by sniper fire

 

[SanjeevM]

After CAG Report, Sources Say Critical Ammo To Start Arriving In Weeks

View attachment 18029

A day after the country's top auditor told parliament that the Army is significantly short on ammunition, sources have confirmed to NDTV that supplies of critical ammo for tanks and artillery guns will start flowing in from early next month. The Army by the end of next year will likely come close to meeting its requirement for 40 days of war wastage reserves of ammunition - the ideal stockpile the Army needs to fight 40 days of an intensive war - sources have said.

Reacting to the report, sources told NDTV that several types of ammunition and fuses which are in short supply are presently at the pre-dispatch inspection stage before they are exported to India by foreign suppliers.

Sources also said that the report does not account for 12,000 crores of orders that have been placed last year after the Uri terror attack on an Army base in Kashmir. The report also does not consider first and second line ammunition that is already deployed on the frontline or kept at the formation level to be supplied to troops on the frontline should it be required in the event of a conflict.

The audit findings, however, comes days after the government gave the Army's Vice Chief Lt General Sarath Chand to directly procure 46 types of ammunition to fight short and "intense wars" without going to the defence ministry. Also, the government had last year cleared emergency procurement of weaponry worth 20,000 crores after the Uri terror attack on September 18, last year.

Edit : So technically since Uri attack Govt has cleared 32000 Crores for WWR stock ..Now we need to see how much of this is imported and how much from Local OFB as i read some where OFB produces 90 % of our ammunition's ...

We concentrated on big ticket projects, but ignored we need ammunition as well. Many fellows on this forum earlier requested 155mms to be used in borders against Pakistan. However they weren't used. If we have large stocks, we can use them freely.

I hope OFB work multiple shifts and get the stocks. I am not sure if Reliance defence started ammunition production yet or not.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The whole idea of 40 days of WWR is due to the fact that it was formulated keeping Pakistan as our main adversary in mind.40 days is more than enough to deal with pakistan on a conventional sense. But Indian army's mindset is slowing changing and now it sees China as the main adversary. So this is the transition period. Slowly and surely we will be building up our armoury and defences keeping the Chinese in mind. 40 days idea predates the 2.5 front war reality situation we are now in. Building up of mountain strike corps and other roads suggest we are slowly trying to build a force which will overwhelm China in Tibet even if they manage to mobilise 30 divisions there. Indian army is on an expansion mode and we will increase manpower and infrastructure to keep the Chinese on the backfoot along LAC while deeling on a firm foot along LOC. Also remember the pre election promise of BJP before coming to power in 2014.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s-size-Rajnath-Singh/articleshow/18962497.cms

 

[thethinker]

Jaahil Pakis after being caught posting fake Chinese attack photos are now tweeting them as attack by Pak army on India.


"State of Indian Army posts in Poonch, Occupied #Kashmir after retaliatory fire by Pakistan Army. #PakistanZindabad #PakNat"

 

[gekko]

Why army thinks that they will need only 40 days of war wastage reserves why can't it be 70 or 100 days?
During worlds wars if they had thought about fighting only 40 days so then?

This has been debunked by VK Singh as part agenda and part propaganda. VK Singh said in an interview that the CAG guy who did that audit was himself a part of the war planning commission and he knows 'how these things are done', implying that he knows that there are hidden reserves which are not subject to CAG audit so the CAG is only auditing the weapons stock which we have officially declared to the world.

He categorically stated two things, first is that we have the reserves to fight an intense war of much more than 100 days, and second, even a 10 day 'intense war' reserve is enough to demolish Pakistan.

Please note that this phrase 'intense war' is a technical term and represents a massive material usage which means that ALL guns you have are firing all day long and all the tanks you have are running all day long. To put everything in contest, even the Kargil war which lasted 3 months saw the use of the equivalent of a 10 day 'intense war' reserve (3L Bofors shells) which cost a total of 4B$ which was 6% of our defense budget in 1999. A country like India going into an intense war would mean a world war like situation. In a normal war (non-intense/ short depth skirmish) your 100 day intense war reserves will last a year, and within that duration they will be constantly replenished by the manufacturing factories. Even one shipment of material from a friendly country boosts the capacity by another 3 months.

We have the war reserves, now put this issue to rest.

 

[square]

“We have taught Pakistan a lesson. They have been given befitting response. There have been massive losses on Pakistan side. I can’t tell everything here,” Jaitley said in the Parliament while replying to members’ concerned.

“Pakistan has been taught such a lesson, which was never given in the history,” he said.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/another-army-jawan-martyred-loc/

thats intresting !!

anyway there won't be a press conference this time !!!

 

[Screambowl]

This is why Pakis came up with that Nasr because they are aware of what India holds. They may have full info on the stockpiles in that case? And so would the chinese

This has been debunked by VK Singh as part agenda and part propaganda. VK Singh said in an interview that the CAG guy who did that audit was himself a part of the war planning commission and he knows 'how these things are done', implying that he knows that there are hidden reserves which are not subject to CAG audit so the CAG is only auditing the weapons stock which we have officially declared to the world.

He categorically stated two things, first is that we have the reserves to fight an intense war of much more than 100 days, and second, even a 10 day 'intense war' reserve is enough to demolish Pakistan.

Please note that this phrase 'intense war' is a technical term and represents a massive material usage which means that ALL guns you have are firing all day long and all the tanks you have are running all day long. To put everything in contest, even the Kargil war which lasted 3 months saw the use of the equivalent of a 10 day 'intense war' reserve (3L Bofors shells) which cost a total of 4B$ which was 6% of our defense budget in 1999. A country like India going into an intense war would mean a world war like situation. In a normal war (non-intense/ short depth skirmish) your 100 day intense war reserves will last a year, and within that duration they will be constantly replenished by the manufacturing factories. Even one shipment of material from a friendly country boosts the capacity by another 3 months.

We have the war reserves, now put this issue to rest.

 

[gekko]

This is why Pakis came up with that Nasr because they are aware of what India holds. They may have full info on the stockpiles in that case? And so would the chinese

Ya Ahhal! your pessimism knows no bounds. Every one prepares for worst case scenario. That doesn't mean they know everything about us. They do know that we have more than we declare, but they may not know how much more and where it is hidden. Recently a defense expert on LSTV said that it is all placed very near to the border so that if a war breaks out, we can mobilize on the way, because the ammo is kept AHEAD of the tanks. They will have to drive a few kilometers and then load up, instead of waiting for the material to arrive from the hinterlands.

In 1965 there was an IAF guy who had hidden fuel in Sintex tanks and hidden the tanks in random places under the sand. When Pakistan carried out air raids on the official fuel depo, we lost only 20% of the fuel, the rest of it was hidden elsewhere. He said that as soon as the war broke out, he called a junior and showed him the places where he had hidden it, in case he gets hit, because no one else knew about it.

The specifics are not known to anyone, but the situation evolves based on local commander's ingenuity. If you were a soldier placed on the front lines, you will ensure that you have secured enough ammo if a war breaks out tomorrow. CAG knows shit about these things. Even in 1971, a lot of strategy was evolved on the ground by local commanders under JFR Jacob. The top level didn't know the specifics. They just involved themselves in the broad strategy (invade in X month/ conclude before X month/ conditions for victory etc). How to invade, where to store the ammo, and all of these tactical things are looked after by local commanders.

Not everything is theoretical. When a war breaks out, then all the hidden maal comes out. We didn't win 4 wars by fluke. All of warfare is logistics. We lost 1962 because of lack of logistics.

The story of Nasr being a counter to Indian cold start is probably a cover story given by the Chinese to a tactical nuclear missile which they armed Pakistan with to deter the US from using Afghanistan as a launching pad to invade Pakistan, if push comes to shove. That is why you will see mostly Americans barking about TNWs, because it interferes with their future plans.

All this while Pakistan had long range missiles capable of striking deep into India, that never bothered the US, and now Pakistan inducts Nasr and suddenly the US gets acidity?

 

[indus]

This is why Pakis came up with that Nasr because they are aware of what India holds. They may have full info on the stockpiles in that case? And so would the chinese

AFAIK Nasr was developed to counter Cold start. Coz it can throw tactical nukes which will be used to counter Indian armoured thrust into Pak territory.

 

[Butter Chicken]

AFAIK Nasr was developed to counter Cold start. Coz it can throw tactical nukes which will be used to counter Indian armoured thrust into Pak territory.

Any usage of tactical nukes against Indian forces even in Porki territory is declaration of nuclear war according it to Indian doctrine and will ask for massive retaliation

 

[Screambowl]

That's obvious I totally agree what you have posted.

My point and why I brought about WRS ( war reserve stock) is, the timing of this report. Are they fool or was there some one who made an RTI to declare such arbitrary information?

I don't understand the purpose of such RTI and purpose of declaring it when the GOI knows that the GOP is aware of what ever the GOI will say is invalid in the report.

Either this is some failed act of spreading disinformation or they are fools.

Ya Ahhal! your pessimism knows no bounds. Every one prepares for worst case scenario. That doesn't mean they know everything about us. They do know that we have more than we declare, but they may not know how much more and where it is hidden. Recently a defense expert on LSTV said that it is all placed very near to the border so that if a war breaks out, we can mobilize on the way, because the ammo is kept AHEAD of the tanks. They will have to drive a few kilometers and then load up, instead of waiting for the material to arrive from the hinterlands.

In 1965 there was an IAF guy who had hidden fuel in Sintex tanks and hidden the tanks in random places under the sand. When Pakistan carried out air raids on the official fuel depo, we lost only 20% of the fuel, the rest of it was hidden elsewhere. He said that as soon as the war broke out, he called a junior and showed him the places where he had hidden it, in case he gets hit, because no one else knew about it.

The specifics are not known to anyone, but the situation evolves based on local commander's ingenuity. If you were a soldier placed on the front lines, you will ensure that you have secured enough ammo if a war breaks out tomorrow. CAG knows shit about these things. Even in 1971, a lot of strategy was evolved on the ground by local commanders under JFR Jacob. The top level didn't know the specifics. They just involved themselves in the broad strategy (invade in X month/ conclude before X month/ conditions for victory etc). How to invade, where to store the ammo, and all of these tactical things are looked after by local commanders.

Not everything is theoretical. When a war breaks out, then all the hidden maal comes out. We didn't win 4 wars by fluke. All of warfare is logistics. We lost 1962 because of lack of logistics.

The story of Nasr being a counter to Indian cold start is probably a cover story given by the Chinese to a tactical nuclear missile which they armed Pakistan with to deter the US from using Afghanistan as a launching pad to invade Pakistan, if push comes to shove. That is why you will see mostly Americans barking about TNWs, because it interferes with their future plans.

All this while Pakistan had long range missiles capable of striking deep into India, that never bothered the US, and now Pakistan inducts Nasr and suddenly the US gets acidity?

 

[gekko]

Any usage of tactical nukes against Indian forces even in Porki territory is declaration of nuclear war according it to Indian doctrine and will ask for massive retaliation

This Nasr Fasr is all bullshit.

Nuclear doctrine is about deterrence and deterrence is always psychological. It's not about the range of the delivery systems. Even if they are successfully able to deliver it, they will get annihilated, and even if they fail to deliver it, they will still be annihilated. This part is known to both sides. What remains variable is that are they crazy enough to get themselves annihilated to cause a portion of India to get scorched, or rather, what % of India should get scorched for them to think that their own extermination is worth it/ when you think in those lines, a tactical weapon is never going to be used. It will either be an all out barrage or nothing. There is no middle path.

The best articulation of Pakistani nuclear doctrine came unwittingly from Musharraf in a cozy moment with a reporter when he inadvertently revealed that the code of their strategy is to make India believe that Pakistanis are crazy enough to do it. As long as we believe it, their deterrence is served.

"Hindus should know that hum Muslman hain, humara khoon garam hai.."

See this :


So, it's a bluff, as caught by Doval.


A major aspect of Pakistani nuclear deterrence is using the Indian media to plant a fear psychosis in Indian minds about the credibility of Pakistani nuclear intentions, so that the sheeple build pressure on the government not to take stern actions against Pakistan.

The moment you stop believing it, the bubble pops. In fact, we should even stop talking about their missiles. They have been built and tested for the sole purpose that people should talk about it. Look at how China treats Indian nuclear program. Their official stance is that India is not a nuclear weapons state and that our nuclear tests were unsuccessful. This puts the pressure of proving our nuclear credibility on us, which cannot be done short of doing a nuclear explosion test (not a delivery mechanism test, like Pakistan keeps doing).

Kuch nahi hoga, tension mat le tu. Pakistan ki maa behen ek hone wali hai. This unnatural state has outlived its natural life, now it is living on borrowed days playing sniper sniper until India finds a shubh muhurat to go all out.

 

[Sameer Chaudhary]

Kuch nahi hoga, tension mat le tu. Pakistan ki maa behen ek hone wali hai. This unnatural state has outlived its natural life, now it is living on borrowed days playing sniper sniper until India finds a shubh muhurat to go all out.

lakin es bc pakistan ki maa bahan kab hogi, modi kea bhi 3 saal ho gaye hain, i do not think he will take any strict action on kashmir or pakistan in last 2 years. already demonitisation and gst se modi ki hawa fail hain. so govt to bach rahi hain want to run these 2 years very safe. hum kab tak wait kartey rahenegy???..why not we declare hamarey baski nahi hain? agar modi nea bhi kuch nahi kiya tha anney walley 20 sallo mea kuch nahi hoga.

 

[indus]

lakin es bc pakistan ki maa bahan kab hogi, modi kea bhi 3 saal ho gaye hain, i do not think he will take any strict action on kashmir or pakistan in last 2 years. already demonitisation and gst se modi ki hawa fail hain. so govt to bach rahi hain want to run these 2 years very safe. hum kab tak wait kartey rahenegy???..why not we declare hamarey baski nahi hain? agar modi nea bhi kuch nahi kiya tha anney walley 20 sallo mea kuch nahi hoga.

I think discussion has totally digressed from war reserves to deterence. Both are separate topics. Coming to doing ma behen of pak there are many in indian society/ babucracy, politics who still believe in peaceful coexistence with pak. The enemy within is more dangerous. So there has to be a sufficiènt reason to goto war with pak. Indians have become used to intermittent terror attacks mixed with riots, some andolans, rail accidents etc. We really do not value life. Plus the war machine has to get in shape after ten years of slumber. All that takes time. Infact its a gòd sign that war with pak has come into common sphere of discussion of the àm admi. The whole nation has to get ready for war, not just the army. surg strikes, gogoi issue, action on hurriyat, cag report, all this is helping in building a narrative. Narrative that war is coming and that aman ka tamasha whch was going on for last 10 years was fooling the people.

 

[Mikesingh]

Why army thinks that they will need only 40 days of war wastage reserves why can't it be 70 or 100 days?
During worlds wars if they had thought about fighting only 40 days so then?

In the present geopolitical scenario, no war can last more than 30 days max due to international pressure etc. Having said that, here's how ammo is stocked:

First Line ammunition is the Service ammunition, which is authorized at given scales to a unit on its War/Peace Establishment (WE/PE) for the weapons authorized. It is held with respective units and issued to individuals. It is the scale of ammunition required for two intense engagements.

Second Line ammunition is the immediate reserve with a formation, authorized at given scales for all units in the formation. This is usually kept with units of holding formations as unit reserve. It can also be held in formation ammunition dumps depending on the situation. It is the scale of ammunition required for one intense engagement.

Thus units can fight three intense engagements with the immediate available ammo. These engagements could last a week or more.

War Wastage Reserve (WWR) ammunition is the reserve intended to meet the requirements for the expected duration of operations or until the indigenous production can get into its stride or other arrangements are made for procurement of ammunition. This procurement action and distribution could take 30 to 40 days. So effectively, there would be enough ammo available to fight another 40 days and so on. (WWR forms the basis for working out the requirements of ammunition during the provisioning review).

I hope that clarifies the doubts on ammo classification.

 

[Screambowl]

every thing comes with some cost and patience.
Pakistan has it's army too and there are planners too. They shouldn't be underestimated. They also possess machinery to inflict damage.

lakin es bc pakistan ki maa bahan kab hogi, modi kea bhi 3 saal ho gaye hain, i do not think he will take any strict action on kashmir or pakistan in last 2 years. already demonitisation and gst se modi ki hawa fail hain. so govt to bach rahi hain want to run these 2 years very safe. hum kab tak wait kartey rahenegy???..why not we declare hamarey baski nahi hain? agar modi nea bhi kuch nahi kiya tha anney walley 20 sallo mea kuch nahi hoga.

 

[ezsasa]

Ammo stocks requirements and availability from CAG report in discussion...

 

[Mikesingh]

Ammo stocks requirements and availability from CAG report in discussion...

^ So you know what the Congress has been doing since the last 10 years when they were in power. Poodlefaking!

Saint Anthony needs to be given a medal for sloth. And Pappu and that Italian need to be hung out to dry.