LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

[ersakthivel]

BS post once again..ooops as usuall

LCA is also termed as Bison by your ACM..should we consider LCA as 3rd or late 2nd generation as well?

After FOC it will bejust short of grippen NG is also his statement a few sentences later in the same interview, which was blocked out by Indian DDM guys. Do you accept that also?

To simply put all while all relaxed static stability or dynamically unstable flight profile fighters like Tejas are FBW in all axis fighters,
But,

All 4 axis FBW fighters need not be relaxed static stability fighters.

 

[farhan_9909]

This too looks like JF-17 wing arrangement, minus LREX and DSI. SO this Mig-21 copy also a 4th gen relaxed static stability fighter?

didnt expected atleast this from you.

you are well aware of the fact that JFT and F-16 are identicle while Mig 21 and Mirage are more similar to LCA

JFT is based off super 7 project.which was initially said to be a program to replace the Mig 21..doesnt mean JFT is just a redesigned Mig 21

super 7

 

[farhan_9909]

sometime i think LCA is a mirage III but with different design intakes.

rest is 100% same


mirage III

could also be the reason why LCA is one of the most unsuccesffully fighter aircraft project in the aviation history

 

[ersakthivel]

sometime i think LCA is a mirage III but with different design intakes.

rest is 100% same


mirage III

could also be the reason why LCA is one of the most unsuccesffully fighter aircraft project in the aviation history

You have too much belief in the massive BS leveled on tejas in forums across the border in your home country.

Where most of the posters are unable to comprehend such a simple thing as partially opened flight envelope and are saying that LCA is 30 years old tech and unsuccessful!!!!

Dassault is the design consultant. SO it is unavoidable it shares some design aspects with Mirage.But tejas's cranked double delta wing with twist at the wing root and weight class is entirely different in aerodynamic design than the Mirage.

Tejas has higher mounted wings with high wing upper body fuselage wing blending, which is not there in Mirage.

The cranked delta produces large lift inducing vortices in high AOA on tejas which is not there in Mirage.

Ad tejas has much higher TWR than Mirgae with much much lower wing loading than Mirage.

By the same token ,

You can also say that RAFLE is just a bigger mirage with canards and grippen is a smaller mirage with canards,
Infact you can call all of the present generation of fighters with the exception of T-50 as some copy of Mirage!!!!

All modern fighters designed after mirage shifted to Mirage design principles of low wing loading and tail less delta form , like the tejas.
That's why I say that Tejas is a design one generation ahead of JF-17, with much bigger radome dia accomadating 120 km range detection and tracking MMR,along with theone of the lowest clean config RCS among modern 4.5th gen planes.

 

[farhan_9909]

since you dont accept what i am saying and continue to live in your make believe world, here this is from your own official source, dont forget to thank me.



Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

now dont give us the shit that it was Chinese third generation which means Pakistani 4th Generation and in your view it is 4.5 or 4+++++++++++ generation.

BTW PAC only got right of 58% but now they make only 40% of airframe and in few years they will make 58% airframe. :thumb:

why are you acting like a typical indian?

anyway LCA turn oooops mirage 3 turn

onsidering the technologies involved, it (LCA Mk II) will be a MiG 21 + + aircraft and it will render yeoman service to the IAF," he said when asked about his assessment of the aircraft.

LCA Tejas will be an advanced version of MiG 21: IAF chief - Brahmand.com

YOur ACM mention LCA tejas MK2 as mig 21++ or bison..

Which indirectly means LCA mk1 is a 2nd generation fighter or 2nd generation ++.

JF-17 from the most latest interview of PAC kamra chair person as of nov 2012

Pakistan has the capacity to export indigenously manufactured JF-17 Thunder fighter jet after meeting PAF requirements, Chairman of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, Air Marshal Sohail Gul said on Saturday. In an interview on Saturday, Air Marshal Sohail Gul said that 60 percent of the fighter aircraft's airframe would be manufactured in Pakistan by next year

'PAC Kamra capable of exporting JF-17 Thunder jets' | Business Recorder

60% would be manufactured onward 2013..

Actually PAF didnt upgraded the PAC kamra facilities with The advance CNC's for the fuselage manufacturing..rather opted to have a complete airframe manufacturing in the PAC latest new plant at nawabshah.it seem like block 2 manufacturing would start at nawabshah plant

 

[farhan_9909]

You have too much belief in the massive BS leveled on tejas in forums across the border in your home country.
Where most of the posters are unable to comprehend such a simple thing as partially opened flight envelope and are saying that LCA is 30 years old tech and unsuccessful!!!!

i had no intentions to do so.

but you forced me by posting the mig 21 picture

there was one another project from brazil if i am not wrong..the fighter aircraft was 100% identicle to tejas..it seems like india bought the design from brazil..will try to post it in future..

and we believe Tejas is a dead design with no future..this i+s the reason after 30-40 years india is still not able to even enter it into mass production

the recent indian sources claims that LCA has problems with radar,has more than 100 more problems..has a very small payload of 3.5tons when compared to JFT most latest specs 4600kg

has a true combat radius of only 800km vis a vis JFT 1300+km,

is as much manouverible as K-8..

i can post a video of k-8 and than you yourself should compare it with lca..
I dont want to post JFT Video since i am well aware of the fact that JFT will eat lca alive

 

[ersakthivel]

why are you acting like a typical indian?

anyway LCA turn oooops mirage 3 turn



LCA Tejas will be an advanced version of MiG 21: IAF chief - Brahmand.com

YOur ACM mention LCA tejas MK2 as mig 21++ or bison..

Which indirectly means LCA mk1 is a 2nd generation fighter or 2nd generation ++.

JF-17 from the most latest interview of PAC kamra chair person as of nov 2012



'PAC Kamra capable of exporting JF-17 Thunder jets' | Business Recorder

60% would be manufactured onward 2013..

Actually PAF didnt upgraded the PAC kamra facilities with The advance CNC's for the fuselage manufacturing..rather opted to have a complete airframe manufacturing in the PAC latest new plant at nawabshah.it seem like block 2 manufacturing would start at nawabshah plant

The same airforce chief said that after FOC , once the flight envelope is fully opened , it will be just short of Grippen.Which was leftout by sensation seeking media.

The JF-17 is truly a 40 year old design. The design for tejas was finalized in the 1990s, the latest among all the 4.5th gen fighters. it is a laughable statement to say it is 40 years old. 30 years old. By the same token , the RAFALE and EuROFIGHTER TYPHOON are also 30 years old. Are they obsolete?

In the recently concluded AERINDIA 2013 Tejas mk-1 performed a vertical loop in under 20 seconds that too with flight envelope limited by FCS to 6Gs.

What is the time for JF-17?

I hope you understand what is the meaning of the term partially opened flight envelope.It means the fighter is restricted to be operated well below it's ultimate performance spec, because it is yet to be fully tested at extreme corners of it's performance.

.

 

[farhan_9909]

@ersakthivel

Senior Membe


*JFT has a almost 1t more payload than LCA
*JFT has a better cropped delta design
*JFT manouveribility is comparable to medium class figher while LCA more of an AJT's
*JFT has a better combat radius
*JFT Weapon integration is done
*JFT radar range after tweaks now stand at 130km against 5m2 target vis a vis only 120km incase of LCA
*JFT has MAA-1b as primary BVR which again is alsoknown as python 4 of Brazil
*JFT has active ASHM role
*JFT has active sead role with Mar-1
*JFT has Operational Carrier killer role with CM-400AKG
*JFT integration with Sd-10A is already done while waiting for sd-10B of which standard the only available BVR is aim120D or the meteor in development
*JFT has a better twr than LCA
*JFT HAs better design features such as DSI,LERX,Twin ventral fins when compared with raw or dead designed Compound delta LCA.
*JFT Block 2 might already be in mass production while LCA mk1 2 squadrons are to be inducted in 2016-17

JFT future is JFT III which MTOW is expected to be between 15-17tons or entry level medium weight aircraft.

LCA will remain as a technology demonstrated and might not be inducted ever

 

[farhan_9909]

The same airforce chief said that after FOC , once the flight envelope is fully opened , it will be just short of Grippen.Which was leftout by sensation seeking media.

The JF-17 is truly a 40 year old design. The design for tejas was finalized in the 1990s, the latest among all the 4.5th gen fighters. it is a laughable statement to say it is 40 years old. 30 years old. By the same token , the RAFALE and EuROFIGHTER TYPHOON are also 30 years old. Are they obsolete?

In the recently concluded AERINDIA 2013 Tejas mk-1 performed a vertical loop in under 20 seconds that too with flight envelope limited by FCS to 6Gs.

What is the time for JF-17?

I hope you understand what is the meaning of the term partially opened flight envelope.It means the fighter is restricted to be operated well below it's ultimate performance spec, because it is yet to be fully tested at extreme corners of it's performance.

.

Complete BS and i dont believe in this partially opened flight envelope and this and that.

i can show you a video of JFT in 2007 at the same stage of what LCA is now.and performing better than even F-16 in turn rate.

How can you say that JFT is a 40 years old design?

will you show me a official word or anyway possible measure of why you think JFT is not a usntable fighter despite it feature complex structural features while LCA is more of an dead design with zero future

 

[ersakthivel]

i had no intentions to do so.

but you forced me by posting the mig 21 picture

It is an undeniable truth that J-7 which was a copy of Mig-21 morphed into JF-17. Go to wiki or any other web site. You can find it.

there was one another project from brazil if i am not wrong..the fighter aircraft was 100% identicle to tejas..it seems like india bought the design from brazil..will try to post it in future..

You can try. But it is a waste of time. No one has fully developed and fielded a cranked delta wing form with twist at wing root till today

and we believe Tejas is a dead design with no future..this i+s the reason after 30-40 years india is still not able to even enter it into mass production

Only an aeronautical expert is qualified to make the statement like this. Unfortunately those guys are calling tejas as one of the most modern design ideas in tailless delta with crank.Just like the F-16 XL . You can go to google type F-16 XL an read all about it. It is an improvement over F-16. Tejas shares the same wing idea of F-16 XL

the recent indian sources claims that LCA has problems with radar,has more than 100 more problems..has a very small payload of 3.5tons when compared to JFT most latest specs 4600kg

if you refer to CNN-IBN report . it was already clarified. In fact there are many paid news planted stories against tejas in indian media by the import lobbies. And no on ehas ever heard of the problem with radar.

has a true combat radius of only 800km vis a vis JFT 1300+km,

is as much manouverible as K-8..

Don't post BS regarding maneuverability , it has a high ITR typical of all low wing loading deltas which will enable it to get the first firing solution with HMDS high off bore sight python missiles with better nose pointing authority in a dog fight.All deltas have low STR and High ITR.

.

i can post a video of k-8 and than you yourself should compare it with lca..
I dont want to post JFT Video since i am well aware of the fact that JFT will eat lca alive

Also with lower RCS and 120 km tracking radar it can shoot a long range BVR on JF-17 even before JF-17 tracks tejas. SO this eating alive is BS

 

[farhan_9909]

i mean this is complete nonsense to compare these 2 fighters

JFT is one of of manouverible


while lca seem more of an AJT than a fighter aircraft
LCA aero india 2013



few days before i watched a video of LCA weapons testing..that was the only video of lca worth watching

 

[farhan_9909]

Also with lower RCS and 120 km tracking radar it can shoot a long range BVR on JF-17 even before JF-17 tracks tejas. SO this eating alive is BS

LCA is a crude design.it must have RCS more than f-16
while JFT rcs are said to be least in PAF inventory.

thanks to DSI and RAM coating

and derby is the only approved option for LCA.which means it cant even withstand againt rest of bvr capable fighters with bvr range in excess of 100km

waiting for klj-7v2 on JFT 2 with range more than apg-68v9 on our f-16 block 52

 

[ersakthivel]

Complete BS and i dont believe in this partially opened flight envelope and this and that.

i can show you a video of JFT in 2007 at the same stage of what LCA is now.and performing better than even F-16 in turn rate.

How can you say that JFT is a 40 years old design?

will you show me a official word or anyway possible measure of why you think JFT is not a usntable fighter despite it feature complex structural features while LCA is more of an dead design with zero future

You won't believe partially opened flight envelope means you are refusing to accept reality , because I completely explained it to you.

I asked you a question what is the time taken by JF-17 to complete a vertical loop? Post video.

There are many versions of videos in aeroindia2013 where LCA mk-1 with 6G limited flight envelope closed the vertical loop in under 20 seconds.

I haven't seen a video of JF-17 doing it till date.

Naturally all deltas have lower STR and higher ITR.

Very low wing loading deltas excel in vertical maneuvers, very high wing loading fighters like JF-17 excel at horizantal Sustained turn rate. It is a basic aerodynamic fact.And tactics are developed according to that.

 

[farhan_9909]

You won't believe partially opened flight envelope means you are refusing to accept reality , because I completely explained it to you.

I asked you a question what is the time taken by JF-17 to complete a vertical loop? Post video.

There are many versions of videos in aeroindia2013 where LCA mk-1 with 6G limited flight envelope closed the vertical loop in under 20 seconds.

I haven't seen a video of JF-17 doing it till date.

Naturally all deltas have lower STR and higher ITR.

Very low wing loading deltas excel in vertical maneuvers, very high wing loading fighters like JF-17 excel at horizantal Sustained turn rate. It is a basic aerodynamic fact.And tactics are developed according to that.

well paf official in an interview regarding there preparation for First flight display in zhuhai airshow said..since JFT is a new aircraft..we are not pushing it to its maximum.

believe me as i said earlier and will say for the forseable future the design of LCA is dead..even with 100kn engine.it wont be as much agile as JFT is in its curret state.

LCa manouveribility is limited because of its design and will remain so until india new features such as lerx and if possible a tail in mk2.

 

[ersakthivel]

i mean this is complete nonsense to compare these 2 fighters

JFT is one of of manouverible


while lca seem more of an AJT than a fighter aircraft
LCA aero india 2013



few days before i watched a video of LCA weapons testing..that was the only video of lca worth watching

In the video you posted JF-17 did not complete a single vertical loop . WHY?
i told you Tejas mk-1 did it a full verticl loop in aeroindia 2013 in 20 seconds with 6G limitations. What is the time taken by JF-17?Don't dodge the question

 

[ersakthivel]

well paf official in an interview regarding there preparation for First flight display in zhuhai airshow said..since JFT is a new aircraft..we are not pushing it to its maximum.

believe me as i said earlier and will say for the forseable future the design of LCA is dead..even with 100kn engine.it wont be as much agile as JFT is in its curret state.

LCa manouveribility is limited because of its design and will remain so until india new features such as lerx and if possible a tail in mk2

LCA is a crude design.it must have RCS more than f-16
while JFT rcs are said to be least in PAF inventory.

thanks to DSI and RAM coating

and derby is the only approved option for LCA.which means it cant even withstand againt rest of bvr capable fighters with bvr range in excess of 100km

waiting for klj-7v2 on JFT 2 with range more than apg-68v9 on our f-16 block 52

Levcons will be added in naval tejas to assist carier landing. no one is going to add lrex.
tejas will have less than 0.3 meter clean config RCS in mk-1 , which can't be matched by the MIG-21 clone JF_17.
Already 80 km version of ASTRA which is especially developed for tejas was test fired successfully. And ASTR mk-2 will have 120 km range like METEOR.
you are posting BS like a true troll.
There is a limit to it.
if you cannot answer the question of what is the time taken by JF-17 to complete one vertical loop , why are you entering into a maneuverability debate?
I am posting statistics and you are passing illiterate prejudiced opinions.

 

[farhan_9909]

6 years older video.when JFT entered into PAF

 

[farhan_9909]

tejas will have less than 0.3 meter clean config RCS in mk-1 , which can't be matched by the MIG-21 clone JF_17.

you are posting BS like a true troll.
There is a limit to it.
if you cannot answer the question of what is the time taken by JF-17 to complete one vertical loop , why are you entering into a maneuverability debate?
I am posting statistics and you are passing illiterate prejudiced opinions.

i would have to watch videos of JFT for this.will post about it if could found tomorrow.

well you are the one who started this..intially you claimed JFT to be mig 21.when i have shown you a fighter aircraft more than 100% comparable to LCA..you went into excuses mode

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

Senior Membe


*JFT has a almost 1t more payload than LCA
*JFT has a better cropped delta design
*JFT manouveribility is comparable to medium class figher while LCA more of an AJT's
*JFT has a better combat radius
*JFT Weapon integration is done
*JFT radar range after tweaks now stand at 130km against 5m2 target vis a vis only 120km incase of LCA
*JFT has MAA-1b as primary BVR which again is alsoknown as python 4 of Brazil
*JFT has active ASHM role
*JFT has active sead role with Mar-1
*JFT has Operational Carrier killer role with CM-400AKG
*JFT integration with Sd-10A is already done while waiting for sd-10B of which standard the only available BVR is aim120D or the meteor in development
*JFT has a better twr than LCA
*JFT HAs better design features such as DSI,LERX,Twin ventral fins when compared with raw or dead designed Compound delta LCA.
*JFT Block 2 might already be in mass production while LCA mk1 2 squadrons are to be inducted in 2016-17

JFT future is JFT III which MTOW is expected to be between 15-17tons or entry level medium weight aircraft.

LCA will remain as a technology demonstrated and might not be inducted ever

BS. these are your illiterate opinions. Not facts. Answer one question. What is the time taken by JF-17 to complete one vertical loop?

 

[ersakthivel]

i would have to watch videos of JFT for this.will post about it if could found tomorrow.

well you are the one who started this..intially you claimed JFT to be mig 21.when i have shown you a fighter aircraft more than 100% comparable to LCA..you went into excuses mode

i still claim it is an improvement of the past mig-21 clone and crap 3rd gen fighter with no future.Not me alone.

Because that is why it was junked by PLAF and pushed down the throat of PAF.

If not why didn't chinese induct it?

They went for the original F16 , LAVI clone the J-10 with much better russian AL-31 engine and junking the JF-17 plane on the heads of bankrupt third world countries in the name of cheap exports.

The single RD engine on the JF-17 is no world class engine. In mig-29 there are two engines of the same tech. SO it more safer.