LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[darshan978]

Source for reduction in weight is HAL CMD Anathkrishnan. He stated that Tejas Mk1 max payload is 3500 kg, while Tejas Mk1A max payload is now 4000 kg, i.e. 500 more payload.

That is not possible with the same engine, unless the empty weight is reduced by at least 500 kg.

i want written papers not from someones mouth.
heard lot of things from hal CMD nothing they say has been delivered till now

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[darshan978]

good news Real Source would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Jackdaw]

I don't know why this ballast weight reduction is being discussed again and again in this forum. fighter plane is not a bullock cart to which we can add weight wherever we want and remove from where ever we want.

The ballast was added with the expectation that the nose cone space will hold Radar and other accessories. Based on the flight profile they have evolved the control laws. Now how much of the weight has been removed matching the radar+ accessories displacement is not clearly known. But it may or may not be the entire pre-radar ballast weight. If the nose-cone weight changes the CG of the flights shifts that will affect the flight control laws. The weight reduction should also come from other parts of the plane.
If Mk1B comes, I believe there will be even more refinements than what we expect in Mk 1A. If not all hands on deck to improve the Mk2 only. We don't know what is the product trajectory. We don't know what would happen, if BJP is not in driver seat after 2029. Instead we are wasting time and filling useless pages and pages of worthless discussions.

 

[TopWatcher]

good news Real Source would be appreciated. Thanks

few days back i share one video, in which its confirm that gtre able to create working kaveri but everyone saying dont trust.

 

[Satish Sharma]

few days back i share one video, in which its confirm that gtre able to create working kaveri but everyone saying dont trust.

Gtre is indeed working on newer turbo fan..
Since the project project funding was stopped many new technologies were developed. Now those will be INTEGRATED in newer TF.
The weight will also be less.
Watch Alpha defence.

 

[BON PLAN]

They really have problems with afterburner.
It's strange because AB is made of few components (no single crystal blades, no high speed components....).
First time I read it's hard to fix AB problems on a fighter engine.

 

[mist_consecutive]

They really have problems with afterburner.
It's strange because AB is made of few components (no single crystal blades, no high speed components....).
First time I read it's hard to fix AB problems on a fighter engine.

AFAIK problem is not with AB but with containing the temperatures of AB. There is some voodoo metallurgy only mastered by handful of countries over decades of iteration on jet engine technology, and nobody is ready to share it.

 

[Johny_Baba]

They really have problems with afterburner.
It's strange because AB is made of few components (no single crystal blades, no high speed components....).
First time I read it's hard to fix AB problems on a fighter engine.

for us it's actually second time, because when HF-24 Marut was made and powered with Orpheus (Bristol Sidley) engine there were attempts to make it supersonic by incorporating afterburners to those engines for which the british had asked for 5 Crore = 50 million INR back then (back then it was quite a hefty sum); but things did not happen and we ended up with russian Mig-21s supersonic fighter-interceptors and Su-7 supersonic attack aircrafts for ~20-27 Crore each

i am sure Kaveri or Kaveri-derivatives are miles ahead in terms of tech than '50s era Orpheus turbojet but in retrospection is it valid to say that some engines might just not be suitable to run with afterburners on them?

 

[Spitfire9]

AFAIK problem is not with AB but with containing the temperatures of AB. There is some voodoo metallurgy only mastered by handful of countries over decades of iteration on jet engine technology, and nobody is ready to share it.

Can India develop the technology to make afterburning engines? How hard did it try with Kaveri before the engine was shelved? If the metallurgy required for an afterburner is very demanding, I imagine that it could benefit the hot section of Kaveri, too.

PS What stops India finding people in Russia, Europe or US who have experience in developing the alloys required? Would they have signed contracts precluding them from ever working for a different engine developer?

PPS Afterburners have been around for 70 years or so. Would countries still consider the technologies involved as state secrets?

 

[no smoking]

Can India develop the technology to make afterburning engines? How hard did it try with Kaveri before the engine was shelved? If the metallurgy required for an afterburner is very demanding, I imagine that it could benefit the hot section of Kaveri, too.

People like to blame others to avoid their own part of problems, scientists are not exemption. As the designers, your job is to design the product based on the material available not some super materials which US or Europe has. Didn't Indian designers know that Indian materials wouldn't match world class level from the beginning. If they knew, why didn't they consider that in the designing stage?
Even if the other departments failed to provide the super metallurgy promised, why don't these designers modify their design to accommodate these shortfalls? There were plenty of examples that Russian and Chinese designers had to change the design due to the delay of other departments.

Just look at Chinese WS-10, it was a copy of CFM56 in the beginning, but in the ground test, some components cracked due to the insufficient strength of the metallurgy, they re-designed it to WS-10A. Then in the testing stage of J-11A, some of electronic parts wouldn't sustain long enough, they again changed the design by copying Russian engine's structure in the afterburner. So, finally we got WS-10B which has both CFM56 and AFL31 features.

PS What stops India finding people in Russia, Europe or US who have experience in developing the alloys required? Would they have signed contracts precluding them from ever working for a different engine developer?

Firstly, for those owing the highly sensitive technologies of their own country, they are under strict watching by their country's anti-spying department. Anyone approaching them will be investigated.
Secondly, these kinds of technology are developed by a group of people, everyone only knows the knowledge in their own section, getting one or two doesn't help but confuse your own scientists. You will need the whole team.

PPS Afterburners have been around for 70 years or so. Would countries still consider the technologies involved as state secrets?

Of course, as you said, only a handful countries can produce them independently. This means these technologies are still state-of-art to others.

 

[Longewala]

That is not how it works.

On the 27th of Feb, MiG-21 Bisons were scrambled to take on F-16s and JF-17s from the PAF because they were on ORP in Srinagar.

Once the Tejas Mk1A enters service with squadrons that are based at Forward Air Bases like Nal, Jaisalmer, Bhuj, etc. they will have to take on the Operational Readiness Platform (ORP) role which means that if PAF fighters are seen coming towards the border, Tejas Mk1A fighters will have to scramble to take them on.

It is very plausible that the J-10 or F-16 will have to be tackled in such a situation. The IAF won't be able to send Rafales from Ambala everywhere along it's border. That too when they have just 18 based there and the rest are at Hasimara. Same goes with Su-30MKIs. Whichever fighter base is closest to the incursion will have to send it's fighters to face any scramble.

True. But it also means Tejas squadrons will be operating closer to their own base, unencumbered by bomb loads, against F-16s and J-10s which don't have that luxury.

 

[MirageBlue]

True. But it also means Tejas squadrons will be operating closer to their own base, unencumbered by bomb loads, against F-16s and J-10s which don't have that luxury.

If the F-16s or J-10s come as part of packages, then expect at least 2-4 to be armed with BVRAAMs for strike escort role while the rest may be carrying a mix of bombs and BVRAAMs.

Most PAF fighters operate pretty close to the border and range/endurance isn't that much of an issue for them when their mission is to stay close to the border.

 

[MirageBlue]

i want written papers not from someones mouth.
heard lot of things from hal CMD nothing they say has been delivered till now

Then go find it yourself. Or choose to believe that the payload remains the same. Not that it makes any difference what you choose to believe.

You can choose not to believe what the HAL CMD said. That's your prerogative. But when you say "nothing they say has been delivered till now", then I am very likely to toss your opinions aside. That's my prerogative.

 

[MirageBlue]

I recall that Tejas Mk1 carried a lot of ballast in its nose. Has Mk1A had the dead weight of ballast in the aircraft dramatically reduced?

It could be. Ballast was to maintain CG in the place where it is. Tejas Mk1 is by design, one of the most unstable fighters on the planet and CG location is key to that. That extremely high degree of instability was mentioned by Dr Girish Deodhare in one of his interviews.

Now with Line Replacable Units being shuffled around (which was done for maintainability reasons originally) and a new AESA radar that comes in with liquid cooling circuit, the weights may have been re-distributed to keep the CG where it is while removing ballast.

To get a proper insight into how the 500 kg empty weight reduction occurred, either we need a presentation at Aero India or Def Expo or some sort of a technical paper. Till then it's just guesswork.

 

[Longewala]

If the F-16s or J-10s come as part of packages, then expect at least 2-4 to be armed with BVRAAMs for strike escort role while the rest may be carrying a mix of bombs and BVRAAMs.

Most PAF fighters operate pretty close to the border and range/endurance isn't that much of an issue for them when their mission is to stay close to the border.

Fair enough, but there would still be a significant impact. 12 Tejas armed only with BVR versus a strike package with 8 out of 12 encumbered with bombs, fuel load etc.
And that's the point, Tejas is cheaper, lighter and low cost, and yet good enough as a second line fighter to take on a strike package with PAF's first line fighters.
It defeats the purpose of you scale up your light second line fighter so that it becomes an F-16 or J-10.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

 

[MirageBlue]

Fair enough, but there would still be a significant impact. 12 Tejas armed only with BVR versus a strike package with 8 out of 12 encumbered with bombs, fuel load etc.
And that's the point, Tejas is cheaper, lighter and low cost, and yet good enough as a second line fighter to take on a strike package with PAF's first line fighters.
It defeats the purpose of you scale up your light second line fighter so that it becomes an F-16 or J-10.

I'm not saying that the Tejas Mk1 or Mk1A can't take them on. They'll have to, if they're operating from Forward Air Bases and are on ORP.

With Astra Mk1, the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A can take on the PAF fighters, no doubt about it. They'll however, need the ASPJ which is absolutely vital for their own safety.

 

[Satish Sharma]

Tejas Part 2: HAL’s Nashik assembly line boosts Tejas production capacity to 24 aircraft annually

www.ajaishukla.com

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Tejas production has slowed. Is the GE engine supply issue been resolved? HAL was supposed to have delivered 8 trainers and 2 Mk1A by March April 2024. And 10 trainers by next year.