LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[DumbPilot]

Supplementing @Bleh and @SwordOfDarkness on the WEZ thing:

This is an old AIM-9L EM diagram. There's a minimum range mark in all the graphs: it's the kinetic limit of the missile itself(modern missiles have a much lower limit, but a limit nonetheless), as to how fast they could turn around with their acceleration and velocity to catch the target.

To put it simply: if you're riding a cycle at full speed, you would need some distance to turn into a corner - you can't do it if the corner is right next to you; you will miss it if that is the case. Or a better example: trying to use a sword at knife fighting distance.

 

[NutCracker]

Jamming the WEZ

I also said same thing, you ignored.

WEZ - Weapon EMployment Zone

Minimum range needed by missile in order to actually gain speed and maneuver towards target. Inside WEZ, missiles are useless.

Common tactic in one circle fight, like this

View attachment 239361

or rolling scissor, like this

View attachment 239362

like @Bleh pointed out

It's engagement zone, and no I did not ignored. You guys are overestimating about EW jamming , it's not as easy as you think. ECCM also exist.

Tejas doesn't have IRST so it's not supposed to get this close in a combat. If enemy has IRST sensor it will go caput before cannon duel, And if it faces JF17, both jets equipped with 3-4 CCM will be aiming to aquire sufficient distance to lock-in IR missiles instead of taking tight turns for cannon duel and losing the energy.

My gripe is not with gun , but ignoring a low hanging fruit like Supersonic tank for a point defence interceptor over a cannon. Diverted alot from that comment, so I'm dropping here.

 

[DumbPilot]

It's engagement zone, and no I did not ignored. You guys are overestimating about EW jamming , it's not as easy as you think. ECCM also exist.

Tejas doesn't have IRST so it's not supposed to get this close in a combat. If enemy has IRST sensor it will go caput before cannon duel, And if it faces JF17, both jets equipped with 3-4 CCM will be aiming to aquire sufficient distance to lock-in IR missiles instead of taking tight turns for cannon duel and losing the energy.

Dogfighting with guns happen when you've exhausted all other options(including WVR missiles), which is why dogfighting in of itself happens when a lot of things prior to it have been messed up(case in point: Feb 2019)

 

[Azaad]

Mig 29k are carrier based. Jags are shore based. Different operational posture.

Jag based at naliya can attack ships in gwadar port with harpoons .
Besides mig29k are too few compared to jaguars.

When were the Jaguars procured , what was the inventory of the IAF & IN w.r.t FAs then & consequently what was the ORBAT ? We had a plethora of Air Superiority , CAS , Strike Aircrafts. Fighter Bombers & exclusive bombers THEN but we didn't have a FA that performed the role of a DPSA which is somewhat similar to the role a FA deployed in strike role against ships is supposed to perform. Hence Jaguars.

As far as the IN went , all we had was the Sea Harriers - a problematic aircraft whose serviceability in the latter half of its career was worse than the MiG-29K we now possess. Moreover the Sea Harriers were meant for air defence roles primarily with a secondary ground attack capability & we ordered only 12 Jaguar IM for anti shipping role nearly a decade after we ordered the Sea Harriers.

Times change , so does the nature of war & therefore the ORBAT. The Jaguars aren't the first choice today for sea strikes . We've other options to choose from including the MKIs & shortly the Rafale M apart from the MiG-29K . The Jaguars are now consigned to secondary duties as far as anti shipping strike warfare goes.

 

[Satish Sharma]

Do you guys think fa50 block 20s radar will be better than Tejas mk1A's uttam ??
tejas mk1A's uttam has 968TR modules..
raytheon is supplying them phantom strike which has 906TR modules.. that too GaN based..

does size of TR modules differ as I have heard that f16 block 60 has around ~1000 TR modules. Very similar to Tejas.. but it's range is more by a big margin.. same is the case with rafale.. less than 900TRms..also depends on engine power output more the dry thrust more the range and better cooling more performance can squeezed out of it...
GaNs temperature does not increase that much compared to GaAs.. it does give better performance with same electric power...
View attachment 239347

Some one should answer this !

 

[IndianHawk]

When were the Jaguars procured , what was the inventory of the IAF & IN w.r.t FAs then & consequently what was the ORBAT ? We had a plethora of Air Superiority , CAS , Strike Aircrafts. Fighter Bombers & exclusive bombers THEN but we didn't have a FA that performed the role of a DPSA which is somewhat similar to the role a FA deployed in strike role against ships is supposed to perform. Hence Jaguars.

As far as the IN went , all we had was the Sea Harriers - a problematic aircraft whose serviceability in the latter half of its career was worse than the MiG-29K we now possess. Moreover the Sea Harriers were meant for air defence roles primarily with a secondary ground attack capability & we ordered only 12 Jaguar IM for anti shipping role nearly a decade after we ordered the Sea Harriers.

Times change , so does the nature of war & therefore the ORBAT. The Jaguars aren't the first choice today for sea strikes . We've other options to choose from including the MKIs & shortly the Rafale M apart from the MiG-29K . The Jaguars are now consigned to secondary duties as far as anti shipping strike warfare goes.

All well and true. But naval aviation is still a mess. Rafale M even if a deal signed this year will still take 3-4 years to deliver. And again they will mostly be carrier based. They will mostly use exocet for naval missions which is equivalent to harpoons for jaguars.

Mig29 K are struggling with availablity rates and spares problems we wouldn't need rafale M if they were satisfactory.

Only a few mki can carry brahmos which is too costly a solution against smaller enemy ships.

These Jags are aesa equipped which makes them technically advanced than both mig29k and mki when it comes to ground terrain mapping and being jamproof .

There are only 12 for naval role but with potent harpoon they can sink entire Pakistan Navy with repeated strikes that too from standoff distance ( harpoon range is 220 km + for aur launched varients) thus leaving other platforms to deal with Chinese navy.

Anyway these Jags will stay with us till 2030 at the very least. MWF was supposed to replace them but now with 100 more mk1a coming they might start replacing few jaguar squadrons but these marine jaguars won't be retired unti lca finds it's own anti ship missile .

Nasm - MR might be just the anti ship missile to replace harpoon . And now when lca fleet is expanding to 220 jets it's about time they get a dedicated anti ship missile too.

 

[IndianHawk]

Some one should answer this !

If we go by theory then more GAN will have better performance than GAs .
Similarly more cooling power means better performance too.

But in practical a whole lot depends on the tuning of radars and there algorithms. How much power do they draw etc .

Fa50 if gets GAN radar it's performance might be slightly better than lca.
Besides next order of lca mk1a will get GAN based uttam itself. So it will gain back parity.

 

[Tridev123]

All well and true. But naval aviation is still a mess. Rafale M even if a deal signed this year will still take 3-4 years to deliver. And again they will mostly be carrier based. They will mostly use exocet for naval missions which is equivalent to harpoons for jaguars.

Mig29 K are struggling with availablity rates and spares problems we wouldn't need rafale M if they were satisfactory.

Only a few mki can carry brahmos which is too costly a solution against smaller enemy ships.

These Jags are aesa equipped which makes them technically advanced than both mig29k and mki when it comes to ground terrain mapping and being jamproof .

There are only 12 for naval role but with potent harpoon they can sink entire Pakistan Navy with repeated strikes that too from standoff distance ( harpoon range is 220 km + for aur launched varients) thus leaving other platforms to deal with Chinese navy.

Anyway these Jags will stay with us till 2030 at the very least. MWF was supposed to replace them but now with 100 more mk1a coming they might start replacing few jaguar squadrons but these marine jaguars won't be retired unti lca finds it's own anti ship missile .

Nasm - MR might be just the anti ship missile to replace harpoon . And now when lca fleet is expanding to 220 jets it's about time they get a dedicated anti ship missile too.

Any chance of the Afterburner version of the HTFE - 25 being installed in the Jaguar fighter.
Probably the HTFE 25 engine dimensions and the air intake design needed for it have to match the space available in the Jaguar engine bay.

An very ambitious plan.But such an endeavor would not only save a lot of money but also validate the HTFE 25 design .If all goes well.

What would be the likely output of the Afterburner version of the HTFE 25 .Probably touching 40kn plus.Maybe.

Perhaps hoping too much?.

 

[IndianHawk]

Any chance of the Afterburner version of the HTFE - 25 being installed in the Jaguar fighter.
Probably the HTFE 25 engine dimensions and the air intake design needed for it have to match the space available in the Jaguar engine bay.

An very ambitious plan.But such an endeavor would not only save a lot of money but also validate the HTFE 25 design .If all goes well.

What would be the likely output of the Afterburner version of the HTFE 25 .Probably touching 40kn plus.Maybe.

Perhaps hoping too much?.

No chance. Htfe itself is not yet ready. Then development and testing of afterburner version will take more years. Jags will start retiring from 2030. No point spending money to upgrade engine just for 5-6 years of airframe life left.

 

[Satish Sharma]

Any chance of the Afterburner version of the HTFE - 25 being installed in the Jaguar fighter.
Probably the HTFE 25 engine dimensions and the air intake design needed for it have to match the space available in the Jaguar engine bay.

An very ambitious plan.But such an endeavor would not only save a lot of money but also validate the HTFE 25 design .If all goes well.

What would be the likely output of the Afterburner version of the HTFE 25 .Probably touching 40kn plus.Maybe.

Perhaps hoping too much?.

As of now there are 2-3 updates initially htfe25 produced 25kn then some last year I it reached stable 27kn dry.. it will produce 40kn wet thrust easily..
The jaguar has 22.75 dry and 32.5 kn wet thrust.
Although the adour engine some other Variants can produce 27kn dry & 38 kn wet.. but they were not choosen at that time or may be not ready..
Jaguar will be phased out now there is no chance iaf will upgrade them if there would have been no order of 97tejas then it could have been feasible...

Hal should look for customer of this engines like Romania & Serbia who uses IAR 93 vulture/soko j22
Around 85-90 are there this countries with very less budget could buy it for there indigeneous aircraft as Britishers denied them powerfull engines they had to use underpowered already licenced build engines(18/22kn) , we can also try selling some other armaments we should focus on such small markets.

 

[Satish Sharma]

If we go by theory then more GAN will have better performance than GAs .
Similarly more cooling power means better performance too.

But in practical a whole lot depends on the tuning of radars and there algorithms. How much power do they draw etc .

Fa50 if gets GAN radar it's performance might be slightly better than lca.
Besides next order of lca mk1a will get GAN based uttam itself. So it will gain back parity.

I was also saying that the size of nose of fa50.is very less so couldn't it be like the TR modules it will be using be smaller in size.
the esr has made a esr 500a radar with 500trms.
Which look practical looking the size of nose of fa50.
But when we hear number of 900trms of raytheons fantom strike it look kind of piculiar also it is just 70kg. Looks like even with GaN it wouldn't surpass uttam of Tejas mk1A it could be better than baseline uttam which was initially said to be used as it has some 750trms

 

[Tridev123]

No chance. Htfe itself is not yet ready. Then development and testing of afterburner version will take more years. Jags will start retiring from 2030. No point spending money to upgrade engine just for 5-6 years of airframe life left.

If only the HTFE 25 had been ready a few years ago.
But at least we have an Flying Test Bed for the HTFE 25.Subject to the HTFE being of suitable size and weight.

One Adour engine along with one HTFE 25.
Not being pessimistic but since the Jaguar is quite an old aircraft even a crash of one will not be a very big loss.
Only experienced pilots who can successfully eject should be drafted for the tests.
Usually when a new engine is being tested on an proven airfcraft an occasional unfortunate accident cannot be totally ruled out.

Probably viable because the planned afterburner thrust of the HTFE 25 is quite close to the current thrust of the existing engines.

No way the Kavery turbofan with 80kn thrust(appx) can be tested in a Jaguar.

 

[Satish Sharma]

But at least we have an Flying Test Bed for the HTFE 25.Subject to the HTFE being of suitable size and weight.

One Adour engine along with one HTFE 25.

Dude they did not give Tejas as test bed of kaveri do u think they will give it for htfe 25..
Kaveri being way more important did not got a testbed after completing it's trials successfully in Russia

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[Satish Sharma]

Uttam on tejas aircraft

 

[Blood+]

It's engagement zone, and no I did not ignored. You guys are overestimating about EW jamming , it's not as easy as you think. ECCM also exist.

Tejas doesn't have IRST so it's not supposed to get this close in a combat. If enemy has IRST sensor it will go caput before cannon duel, And if it faces JF17, both jets equipped with 3-4 CCM will be aiming to aquire sufficient distance to lock-in IR missiles instead of taking tight turns for cannon duel and losing the energy.

My gripe is not with gun , but ignoring a low hanging fruit like Supersonic tank for a point defence interceptor over a cannon. Diverted alot from that comment, so I'm dropping here.

No one said nothing about electronically jamming the missiles!! Are you certain you understand the concept of WEZ.

 

[Tridev123]

Dude they did not give Tejas as test bed of kaveri do u think they will give it for htfe 25..
Kaveri being way more important did not got a testbed after completing it's trials successfully in Russia

You are probably confusing the issues.
The Tejas is an Indian designed and developed plane.That too a single engine one. Any crash with an unproven Kavery turbofan will affect morale and delay it's induction.

Unless one is very very confident of the reliable performance of the Kavery engine at all altitudes it would be an unacceptable risk to fly the LCA with a work in progress Kavery.

On the other hand the Jaguar is a British-French designed aircraft and a twin engine plane.Even in the worst case scenario if the test engine fails totally a good pilot can perhaps immediately land the plane using the remaining functional engine. At the nearest airfield.

And what would be the cost of a 2 decades old Jaguar as compared to a relatively new LCA.
Where will the monetary loss be higher.

Ideally an 4 engine large plane with all the required instrumentation should be used for subsonic flight validation of a test engine. Later on once the engine is fully certified for subsonic flight, probably an twin engine fighter aircraft can be used to validate supersonic flight regime. Whether the new engine can sustain supersonic flight.

Can we design an Flying Test Bed all by ourselves. If it will take too much time then maybe no alternative to imports.Until we develop the expertise required.

 

[NutCracker]

No one said nothing about electronically jamming the missiles!! Are you certain you understand the concept of WEZ.

Do you ? Are You and Sword of darkness not talking about minimum distance of WEZ.

why dont you sit down and contemplate whole combat scenario, how can AESA radar equipped 4.5gen fighters (both not having IRST) can get so close to each other that they can't use their missiles anymore, Unless the combat is happening in EW jammed environment. Even that can be counter by modern AESA radars though.

Feb-2019 is the worst case scenario , yet our least EW equipped mig 21 used a r-73 , not cannon.

 

[DumbPilot]

Do you ? Are You and Sword of darkness not talking about minimum distance of WEZ.

why dont you sit down and contemplate whole combat scenario, how can AESA radar equipped 4.5gen fighters (both not having IRST) can get so close to each other that they can't use their missiles anymore, Unless the combat is happening in EW jammed environment. Even that can be counter by modern AESA radars though.

Feb-2019 is the worst case scenario , yet our least EW equipped mig 21 used a r-73 , not cannon.

ROE is a factor(rules of engagement)

Here are some good videos to show that:


Notice @ 0:50, he locks up the bandit at 8miles with his AIM-7M: well within WEZ, probably touching NEZ. He does not shoot though, despite being able to - he waits for an IFF confirmation when the TD box turns into a diamong, @ 0:57, at about 4.1 miles.

This is a primitive example, but ROE can cause late missile firing. Of course, ROE in of itself is not enough of a valid reason to shoot heatseekers/CCMs at close range, but you can see how the decisions are made and the choices available degrade more and more.

In that same way, one may end up needing a gun(which weighs negligibly at best, as others have pointed out). Even if the pilot does not end up using the gun, the tactics learnt operating the gun(positioning, element-element support, shooter-supporter roles, ..) are useful in all instances.

Coming to your point about "WEZ jamming": that's a misnomer. No actual electronic jamming is going on, it's just that when you are forced to the range of using guns, the missile often times literally can't hit the target kinetically(either it can't turn fast or hard enough, or the warhead doesn't get fused in such a short distance, .. and so on)

 

[Bleh]

how can AESA radar equipped 4.5gen fighters (both not having IRST) can get so close to each other that they can't use their missiles anymore,

@Blood+ @SwordOfDarkness why are you two still at it?