LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Srinivas_K]

Dassault and LM.
Paying to copy is called collaboration.
India too don’t have design capability, neither is able to copy complex technology (apart from some Rockets, some artillery guns and sum small arms). We should have done the same if only we had the expertise to copy/steal/hack.
USA did the same so is Russia/soviet union and various other countries

where are the proofs?

did you have any then present them here.

secondly India developed its own LCA control laws which were praised by USA when they went for the testing saying these are better that the then F16 control laws.

@Assassin 2.0 Regarding LCA and JF17 comparision.

JF17 engine is underpowered even though it has more control surfaces to do manuveres.

LCA on the other hand has a different doctrine, this is for point defense. Intercept shoot the missiles and disengage.


LCA Mark 2 (MWF) will have better dog fighting capabilities with its canards and twin engines.

 

[AbRaj]

secondly India developed its own LCA control laws which were praised by USA when they went for the testing saying these are better that the then F16 control laws.

LOL, where are the proofs

Bla bla bla

 

[Bleh]

Tejas is not very good at rate fight due to poor STR and high drag which results in high energy bleeding during turning fights. Its main advantage over F16 is better ITR and brilliant nose authority which is very advantageous in single turn fights.

Do you have proper understanding of what you are saying or just repeating stuff you have read/heard on Internet?

In demos Tejas does complete a full loop, followed by full minimum radius turn, both in less than 20 seconds... to display its capability to do repeated turns at high STR. That is the reason its AoA is limited to 24° unlike 30°+ for Mig-21. Any higher and it will bleed away speed.
Watch the full turns in demo videos, all take similar time be it F-16 or Su-35 (pre-stall).

But you wil almost never see F-16 or Mirage-2000 doing full turns in display demos. And NOONE has the confidence to do it back to back like Tejas pilots.

In Short F16 V is a beast and LCA is a Sparrow

Here is your Paki "beast" doing full turns at high speed (forget low speed). No juice after turning the first 200°.

 

[Bleh]

Closest i could find to min-rad-turn for the "STR King", some 300°.

LOL, where are the proofs

Bla bla bla

Normally I don't get into the trollfest of this shitposting forum, but for information's sake, this happened too. You could have just Googled.

One of the comments of the test pilot from the Pentagon was that the F16 flies better with LCA control laws.
https://www.tejas.gov.in/featured_articles/dr_kota_harinarayana/page_02.html

 

[AbRaj]

Do you have proper understanding of what you are saying or just repeating stuff you have read/heard on Internet?

In demos Tejas does complete a full loop, followed by full minimum radius turn, both in less than 20 seconds... to display its capability to do repeated turns at high STR. That is the reason its AoA is limited to 24° unlike 30°+ for Mig-21. Any higher and it will bleed away speed.
Watch the full turns in demo videos, all take similar time be it F-16 or Su-35 (pre-stall).

But you wil almost never see F-16 or Mirage-2000 doing full turns in display demos. And NOONE has the confidence to do it back to back like Tejas pilots.
Here is your Paki "beast" doing full turns at high speed (forget low speed). No juice after turning the first 200°.

Excuse me for not replying you. Not worth
it (imho) When you don’t understand basics. Read about dogfights and role of energy conservation. Problems with deltas with energy conservation. Also read about specifications of fighter jets you want to compare. It’s tough to spoon feed every ignorant here.
F16 is US jet, there is nothing “paki” in it. And I’m saying it again a F16 upgraded to current standard, will eat out LCA for breakfast.

so an interview is the proof, which is nothing but story telling or self congratulation. Nothing that quantify it in in terms of parameters whic can be measured? I hoped so, our guys are quite good in that thing , not to mention the common public.

 

[Kchontha]

Excuse me for not replying you. Not worth
it (imho) When you don’t understand basics. Read about dogfights and role of energy conservation. Problems with deltas with energy conservation. Also read about specifications of fighter jets you want to compare. It’s tough to spoon feed every ignorant here.
F16 is US jet, there is nothing “paki” in it. And I’m saying it again a F16 upgraded to current standard, will eat out LCA for breakfast.

so an interview is the proof, which is nothing but story telling or self congratulation. Nothing that quantify it in in terms of parameters whic can be measured? I hoped so, our guys are quite good in that thing , not to mention the common public.

Pakis f16 was eaten by MIG 21. Tejas is an evolving aircraft that means that it can be a monster or a beast.

 

[Bleh]

Pakis f16 was eaten by MIG 21. Tejas is an evolving aircraft that means that it can be a monster or a beast.

..And you took his bait.
He will point out how our Mig-21 only got lucky that too 50:50 with no concrete proof (Edit: Done! See below post). It still remains a much inferior platform. Hollow claims vs hollow claim.

Problems with deltas with energy conservation. Also read about specifications of fighter jets you want to compare. It’s tough to spoon feed every ignorant here.

You are still trolling, so obviously didnot read what i wrote. Its about something not taught in DCS Institute or YouTube University... the physic related reason of LCA's lower AoA than most peers, to mitigate said problems of drag and underpower. By limiting AoA. That way it can retain 15°-17° per sec STR without losing too much energy.

Which is why delta LCA has good low speed performance. It is a jack of all trades with optimised performance for all speeds and altitudes.(Spoonfeeding: test pilot interview by hushkit. Yes their word carry more weight that random Internet troll who has looked at a stat sheet)



You love asking for proof, do one yourself. Find us ONE single video where your non-delta F-16/Jf-17 timing just complete loop and turn better than LCA. Any speed, any altitude... You cant beat this 2.5 turns, so try just 1.

 

[Hydra3]

Pakis f16 was eaten by MIG 21. Tejas is an evolving aircraft that means that it can be a monster or a beast.

Disputed claim........................

 

[AbRaj]

..And you took his bait.
He will point out how our Mig-21 only got lucky that too 50:50 with no concrete proof. It still remains a much inferior platform. Hollow claims vs hollow claim.

You are still trolling, so obviously didnot read what i wrote. Its about something not taught in DCS Institute or YouTube University... the physic related reason of LCA's lower AoA than most peers. Which is why LCA has good low speed performance too. It is a jack of all trades with optimised performance for all speeds and altitudes.(Spoonfeeding: test pilot interview by hushkit)

You love asking for proof instead of Googling. Why don't you do one yourself?

Find me ONE single video where your non-delta F-16/Jf-17 timing just complete loop and turn better than LCA.
Any speed, any altitude... Beat this 2.5 turns.

1. No comments on 27 Feb event except that we can say with confidence that Mig 21 touched the ground.
2 DCS is just a simulation software like dozens other some of which are used by force across the globe to learn and practice their skills. What’s wrong with DCS? As per actual pilots (military and civilian alike) it’s a very realistic, easy and fairly accurate software.
3 can’t understand the green part, so can’t comment.
4 LCA no doubt has good low speed performance in the form of excellent nose authority and low stall speed like all delta wing designs. Where is your confusion coming from?
That said No one fighter pilot in his/her right mind would like to fight at slow speed, due to the risk of getting shot down by the wingman of the enemy. F16 /F15 bread and butter is high speed rate fights and they will engage you in their zone of comfort. Slow speed is extremely risky in combat environment. Even a mirage pilot would plan to start the merge at highest speed and altitude possible to play with the rapid energy bleed.
5 I do read about stuff that I find interesting. But I don’t have time to waste on verifying every self glorifying comments. Fact is that LCA has average ( or somewhere below it) flight characteristics and good handling character thanks to contemporary fly by wire developed with the help of LocMart ( the F8/crusader was the first production aircraft to use it on a fighter plane ). Keep in mind they have done that in 1970s. Now they have moved to Power by wire in their F35 design)
6 any specific purpose to compare F16 with JF17/FC 1 ? Both are different jets designed by deferent agencies for different group of customers and different needs.
7 what do you mean by complete loop ? Vertical or horizontal ? Or you confusing Scissors with loop ? In any case, complete loops are very very rare in an air combat environment. Think of it, as to why you want to go to the direction you’re already headed to after needlessly wasting your energy.
FYI there are four basic flight maneuvers upon which all flying tasks are based: straight-and-level flight,
turns,
climbs,
descent
Also read this

PS: regarding your previous
Tejas does complete a full loop, followed by full minimum radius turn, both in less than 20 seconds... to display its capability to do repeated turns at high STR. That is the reason its AoA is limited to 24° unlike 30°+ for Mig-21. Any higher and it will bleed away speed”
Again you are saying what I said earlier about higher grab and rapid energy loss is delta design. The swept wing of F16/F15 losses less energy therefore has better AoA. Nevertheless no one can defy the laws of physics. So both will loose energy at some point of time during sustained turns.

Please clarify what you referring to.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I hoped so, our guys are quite good in that thing , not to mention the common public.

I can assure you that when we will put AESA in Tejas, with Astra mk2, Meteor or SFDR , it will eat Paki F 16 in breakfast in BVR fight. I do not know about latest F 16.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

..And you took his bait.
He will point out how our Mig-21 only got lucky that too 50:50 with no concrete proof (Edit: Done! See below post). It still remains a much inferior platform. Hollow claims vs hollow claim.

You are still trolling, so obviously didnot read what i wrote. Its about something not taught in DCS Institute or YouTube University... the physic related reason of LCA's lower AoA than most peers, to mitigate said problems of drag and underpower. By limiting AoA. That way it can retain 15°-17° per sec STR without losing too much energy.

Which is why delta LCA has good low speed performance. It is a jack of all trades with optimised performance for all speeds and altitudes.(Spoonfeeding: test pilot interview by hushkit. Yes their word carry more weight that random Internet troll who has looked at a stat sheet)



You love asking for proof, do one yourself. Find us ONE single video where your non-delta F-16/Jf-17 timing just complete loop and turn better than LCA. Any speed, any altitude... You cant beat this 2.5 turns, so try just 1.

Tejas can do vertical loop in less than 20 second. It has a bit of higher horizontal loop timing but it is all set to improve with aerodynamics improvement and canopy redesign. Its STR will cross 18*per second which is at par with best. I have told this earlier as well but @AbRaj is over impressed with F16.

 

[AbRaj]

I can assure you that when we will put AESA in Tejas, with Astra mk2, Meteor or SFDR , it will eat Paki F 16 in breakfast in BVR fight. I do not know about latest F 16.

Again we are completely us with pakis. Come on man. They are not the standard we should compare with. Most of their airforce is made up of gap fillers (or rubbish if you like it that way)
Only a couple of dozens upgraded 16 compares fairly to a fairly modern jet like LCA , Mirages or MKIs. Even in that case too it will be a 50:50 and will depend on number of jets on station,better tactics and support in form of situational awareness ECM capabilities on both sides etc

BTW: It may sound funny but dou know the reason PAF uses F16s less on combat patrols and more in air shows over Karachi and Islamabad? It’s because barring those upgraded ones, most are pretty much used in modern combat environment due to lack of BVR capability and poor radars. Even Bisons can target them easily.

Tejas can do vertical loop in less than 20 second. It has a bit of higher horizontal loop timing but it is all set to improve with aerodynamics improvement and canopy redesign. Its STR will cross 18*per second which is at par with best. I have told this earlier as well but @AbRaj is over impressed with F16.

Tejas has all the properties of Delta wing design, good and bad both. Vt loop is one of them , vey useful in quickly turn and get a lock and roast the enemy. But if you fail to do so in first attempt, you will be in precarious position of loosing too much altitude and speed against something like F16 which has better engine and less drag. It will do circles around you.
That’s why French focus on good radar and better BVR and WVR missile

 

[Immanuel]

Excuse me for not replying you. Not worth
it (imho) When you don’t understand basics. Read about dogfights and role of energy conservation. Problems with deltas with energy conservation. Also read about specifications of fighter jets you want to compare. It’s tough to spoon feed every ignorant here.
F16 is US jet, there is nothing “paki” in it. And I’m saying it again a F16 upgraded to current standard, will eat out LCA for breakfast.

so an interview is the proof, which is nothing but story telling or self congratulation. Nothing that quantify it in in terms of parameters whic can be measured? I hoped so, our guys are quite good in that thing , not to mention the common public.

Firstly the Tejas MK-1 vs Napaki F-16 Block 52 is a fair fight, it is going not going to be easy for the F-16, the Tejas has a lower RCS, it's radar is better. It will come down to tactics and I would bet on the Tejas. IAF knows the F-16 really well. IAF did a year-long exchange with Israeli's flying the F-16I ( a far more advanced variant) with One squadron while the Issies learned on the Mig-29. Not to mention the yearly exchanges with Singapore and USAF.

A humble Mig-21 Bison took out a Falcon in a far more threat rich environment and that Napaki didn't see the Bison coming and got a stiff one up the tail pipe.

IAF pilots are better calibrated. They know when to engage, take risks, switch tactics and how to keep the enemy surprised. Any one and everyone who has exchanged and trained with IAF pilots knows they are among the best in the business.

Besides it's always about the pilot, the aircraft's performance/avionics etc. only goes 1/3 of the way.

 

[AbRaj]

Firstly the Tejas MK-1 vs Napaki F-16 Block 52 is a fair fight, it is going not going to be easy for the F-16, the Tejas has a lower RCS, it's radar is better. It will come down to tactics and I would bet on the Tejas. IAF knows the F-16 really well. IAF did a year-long exchange with Israeli's flying the F-16I ( a far more advanced variant) with One squadron while the Issies learned on the Mig-29. Not to mention the yearly exchanges with Singapore and USAF.



IAF pilots are better calibrated. They know when to engage, take risks, switch tactics and how to keep the enemy surprised. Any one and everyone who has exchanged and trained with IAF pilots knows they are among the best in the business.

I never said otherwise. Block 52 that pakis have is fair game specially in BVR fight.



Never doubted the second part. Not happy about the outcome of 27 doesn’t mean doubting IAF pilots caliber at all. A driver (let’s say Michael schoonmaker) is as good as the car he is driving. He can’t win F1 with Ford Figo.
It was just one bad day.


As someone said somewhere else

In a 1v1 fight between F-16 Block 50/52 vs LCA Mk1A, the Mk1A will trump over the F-16 in BVR every time. Mk1A's advantages are the AESA radar, superior BVR (I-Derby ER, Derby is just a stopgap missile because we had some stocks of it bought for the Sea Harrier upgrade) and much lower RCS (as much as 12 times difference at the minimum). Performance differences in BVR should be more or less the same. In WVR, the Mk1A has a superior weapon with the ASRAAM and HMDS, but inferior performance, so it shouldn't get into a turning fight. The LCA only has an advantage in the first 30 seconds or so of a dog fight due to its higher instantaneous turn rate and HMDS+missile combo. If the missile doesn't do its job, then it's time to run. Only the Block 70 with the Aim-260 will be able to take the BVR advantage, while the WVR fight will see the same constraints for both aircraft.

In recce and strike missions, the F-16 takes home the cake. Superior endurance and payload makes it a far superior aircraft. LCA is only suitable for standoff strike (with Bhramos-M/Nirbhay etc), light strike and CAS. F-16 is capable of DPS along with everything else the LCA does. Plus it can escort itself.

In terms of cost, the F-16 beats the LCA even though the F-16 has a higher sticker price. Let's not forget that new build F-16s have a 12000-hour airframe life, while LCA Mk1 has 3000 hours and Mk1A should increase that to 4000 hours. If we are lucky, it may possibly be increased to 6000 hours by the time it comes in for an overhaul. So the overall LCC of the F-16 will be lower.

The LCA Mk1/Mk1A is a Mig-21 replacement, nothing more. Its minimalist design is its biggest drawback and can be fixed only on the MWF. Its primary function is air defence, as an interceptor, CAP or escort. And it will likely do CAS rather than anything else as a secondary mission. I dare say the only reason IAF is buying the 83 new jets is because they are in trouble with respect to squadron strength and it's the only available jet to replace the Mig-21.

@Bleh I’m not saying he is authentic but most of the times, I find him reasonably accurate.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Tejas has all the properties of Delta wing design, good and bad both. Vt loop is one of them , vey useful in quickly turn and get a lock and roast the enemy. But if you fail to do so in first attempt, you will be in precarious position of loosing too much altitude and speed against something like F16 which has better engine and less drag. It will do circles around you.
That’s why French focus on good radar and better BVR and WVR missile

why would Tejas fail to do that in first attempt? All modern fighters uses delta which includes EFT, Grippen, Rafale. Are they draggy? Infact, F 21 is an outdated design. It is draggy. Tejas has some higher drag but it is all set to improve it to a large extent in Mk1A avatar. Every design has its pros and cons. EFT also bleeds energy yet, it is modern design. F16 is an outdated design. LCA looses on area ruling count because of it's short length and high cross section expansion along with its length and that is why a longer Tejas was proposed which after many design changes became MWF. However, these problems is not so sever. This can be overcome by aerodynamic improvements. Mk1A will be much aerodynamically improved plane. We have just made Tejas while F 16 is a much evolved design. Tejas is all set to evolve in Mk1A avatar. Do not compare best F16 with Tejas Mk1. Tejas Mk1 will be fully capable of kicking @as of anything Pakistan or china has at present. Mk1A will easily kick the back side of Pakistani F 16, Jf 17, J10 etc.

 

[AbRaj]

why would Tejas fail to do that in first attempt? All modern fighters uses delta which includes EFT, Grippen, Rafale. Are they draggy? Infact, F 21 is an outdated design. It is draggy. Tejas has some higher drag but it is all set to improve it to a large extent in Mk1A avatar. Every design has its pros and cons. EFT also bleeds energy yet, it is modern design. F16 is an outdated design. LCA looses on area ruling count because of it's short length and high cross section expansion along with its length and that is why a longer Tejas was proposed which after many design changes became MWF. However, these problems is not so sever. This can be overcome by aerodynamic improvements. Mk1A will be much aerodynamically improved plane. We have just made Tejas while F 16 is a much evolved design. Tejas is all set to evolve in Mk1A avatar. Do not compare best F16 with Tejas Mk1. Tejas Mk1 will be fully capable of kicking @as of anything Pakistan or china has at present. Mk1A will easily kick the back side of Pakistani F 16, Jf 17, J10 etc.

Because it’s a dogfight and not a fixed match. Any miscalculation in a fraction of seconds and you will loose the chance.


All deltas are draggy due to lower wing loading (higher wing area) compared to conventional swept wing. But there are methods to lower that penalty, closed couple canards are one of them.
Overall high drag is just a trade off to achieve fare greater advantage in high speed flight characteristics.
Mk1A is aerodynamically same as Mk1. Weight reduction is the only agenda in this regard.

F16 is old design, but far from outdated. It will be outdated whe we will se aircrafts with better aerodynamics frequenting the skies. Right now we don’t have many. Gripen E is one for example but handicapped by lower thrust engine (vis a vis F16).
MWF could be another but with better engine than 414(it’s just a paper plane as of now while F16 is near its end of life cycle)

PS: No one knows about J10s flight characteristics so better not to discuss about it. I consider it a step below F16 V

 

[Bleh]

3 can’t understand the green part, so can’t comment.

Yeah, no shit...

7 what do you mean by complete loop ? Vertical or horizontal ? Or you confusing Scissors with loop ? In any case, complete loops are very very rare in an air combat environment. Think of it, as to why you want to go to the direction you’re already headed to after needlessly wasting your energy.

...................

 

[AbRaj]

Yeah, no shit... ...................

Elaborate? .

 

[Bleh]

Elaborate?

Nah. You don't barely read or comprehend what people are saying, before starting to type.

Look up some of your DCS dogfights from YouTube. Count how many times they have to turn for a 1v1 or 2v2 WVR. I doubt youll figure out how much full and follow up turns still matter in practical non-perfect CCMs scenario, but others who read this might.

 

[AbRaj]

Nah. You don't barely read or comprehend what people are saying, before starting to type.

Look up some of your DCS dogfights from YouTube. Count how many times they have to turn for a 1v1 or 2v2 WVR. I doubt youll figure out how much follow up turns and STR still matters in practical non-perfect CCMs scenario, but other whowho read this might.

Ok then. Sorry for inconvenience. I don’t do it unless I have to.

PS: their 1:1 and 2:2 scenario is more accurate to compare individual characteristics of aircraft’s. use it for that only. Rest you have to deduce yourself regarding tactical planning by airforce at larger scale.