LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Bleh]

You are talking about inflation, no amount of inflation has gone 200% in 5 years. The new tech doesn't account for $40 million increase from the first production to the 1A either. An AESA radar is a few million, not tens of millions.

Not just inflation!!

A plane with jammer, HMD, refueling probe, EW, gun-pod etc. suite is going to be cheaper than a plane without those... Quality, complexity of those systems or R&D cost of brand new tech also push up the cost. No order size can make Rafale & F-35 cost as much as "upgraded Mig-21".
How is that so difficult to understand?

 

[Armand2REP]

Not just inflation!!

A plane with jammer, HMD, refueling probe, EW, gun-pod etc. suite is going to be cheaper than a plane without those... Quality, complexity of those systems or R&D cost of brand new tech also push up the cost. No order size can make Rafale & F-35 cost as much as "upgraded Mig-21".
How is that so difficult to understand?

The F-35 was supposed to cost $60 million, it failed to reach that target because the assembly process was so convoluted and inefficient that their Congress had to hold an investigation and force them to make changes or threaten to cancel the order. Maybe the same thing should happen at HAL.

 

[Bleh]

The F-35 was supposed to cost $60 million, it failed to reach that target because the assembly process was so convoluted and inefficient that their Congress had to hold an investigation and force them to make changes or threaten to cancel the order. Maybe the same thing should happen at HAL.

Let's try again? Imma dumb it down for ya...

Question 1:
Why JF-17 no same price F-35 (Ideal orginal target)?

A:
Jf-17 tech bad... F-35 more toys has.

Question 2:
Why Tejas IOC no same price Tejas Mark 1A?

Ans:
Same as above.

 

[vampyrbladez]

KEEP F 35 AND OTHER AIRCRAFT OUT OF THIS THREAD!!!

 

[Snowcat]

Mk1A needs to be between 40m to 45m dollars if they want the IAF to go anywhere near it. 63m is way too much for it as Gripen falls rightly under it.

 

[Armand2REP]

Mk1A needs to be between 40m to 45m dollars if they want the IAF to go anywhere near it. 63m is way too much for it as Gripen falls rightly under it.

That is the bottom line. Tejas payload and range is too limited to be dumping too much money into it. You only fork out big bucks if the aircraft can do 2-3X more work. For 3 Tejas you get 2 Rafale, can those three do the same as those two?

 

[Bleh]

Mk1A needs to be between 40m to 45m dollars if they want the IAF to go anywhere near it. 63m is way too much for it as Gripen falls rightly under it.

Indeginous alternatives to many of the imported tech could start being available after 2020 like Uttam, Kaveri, Astra, Mayavi, avionics, cockpit etc.

So reduced import-content will reduce the price, a bit, but not drastically so... It'll still cost $50mil atleast. Gripen NG ain't much technologically superior than Tejas Mark 1A & costs of both should be comparable.

 

[Armand2REP]

Indeginous alternatives to many of the imported tech could start being available after 2020 like Uttam, Kaveri, Astra, Mayavi, avionics, cockpit etc.

So reduced import-content will reduce the price, a bit, but not drastically so... It'll still cost $50mil atleast. Gripen NG ain't much technologically superior than Tejas Mark 1A & costs of both should be comparable.

The current Mk1 only costs $41m, that should be the price point you get to fill squadron numbers. The 1A is $63m but that is before actual cost spirals are accumulated. It could end up being $70m or more. If the goal is to fill squadron numbers you need a stripped down workhorse. IAF doesn't have the budget to fill the required squadrons at $63m or more per aircraft.

 

[Rahul Singh]

That is the bottom line. Tejas payload and range is too limited to be dumping too much money into it. You only fork out big bucks if the aircraft can do 2-3X more work. For 3 Tejas you get 2 Rafale, can those three do the same as those two?

Tejas is here to fulfill not just tactical requirement but largely a strategic requirement.

Bottom line is Strategic Independence which India direly needs something project Tejas is providing incrementally. Which Rafale, or for that matter any other imported combat aircraft can't ever provide.

Money spent on Tejas circulates within the country boosting the economy. Outright purchases is a capital loss.

Per unit cost of Tejas being discussed here is still ambiguous. Nobody here knows exact break down of the price as per sub-system cost, labor cost, weapon package price, long term maintenance cost etc.

If overall pricing of total order volume of Rafale is calculated with the same logic. Then per unit cost of IAF rafale is 216.666 euros = 246 USD. Which in your words would be 1 Rafale for 4 Tejas.

 

[Snowcat]

Indeginous alternatives to many of the imported tech could start being available after 2020 like Uttam, Kaveri, Astra, Mayavi, avionics, cockpit etc.

So reduced import-content will reduce the price, a bit, but not drastically so... It'll still cost $50mil atleast. Gripen NG ain't much technologically superior than Tejas Mark 1A & costs of both should be comparable.

Forget the Kaveri, it's not going anywhere near that plane.

 

[Armand2REP]

Tejas is here to fulfill not just tactical requirement but largely a strategic requirement.

Bottom line is Strategic Independence which India direly needs something project Tejas is providing incrementally. Which Rafale, or for that matter any other imported combat aircraft can't ever provide.

Money spent on Tejas circulates within the country boosting the economy. Outright purchases is a capital loss.

Per unit cost of Tejas being discussed here is still ambiguous. Nobody here knows exact break down of the price as per sub-system cost, labor cost, weapon package price, long term maintenance cost etc.

If overall pricing of total order volume of Rafale is calculated with the same logic. Then per unit cost of IAF rafale is 216.666 euros = 246 USD. Which in your words would be 1 Rafale for 4 Tejas.

There is far too much foreign equipment going into it to call it strategic. When you make a multi-billion defence order that money goes back into the economy with offsets. When you spend much less on components for the aircraft you get none of that back.

The $63m for Mk1A is the unit cost, if you want to add all of its associated costs it could end up being close to a Rafale.

 

[Rahul Singh]

There is far too much foreign equipment going into it to call it strategic. When you make a multi-billion defence order that money goes back into the economy with offsets. When you spend much less on components for the aircraft you get none of that back.

Many of the equipment of foreign origin that is present in Tejas has its indigenous replacements getting ready. Which are at various levels already. Once available they will be replaced. We do not have such luxury with imported equipment. And that's Strategic Independence.

At Tejas MK-2 level Tejas will have Indian EW, AESA, IRST, LDP to name few. Some of these systems will naturally replace imported systems in MK1 versions.

Only major equipment to be of foreign origin in Tejas MK-2 would be GE-414. Which is quite ok considering the technological complexity of a Turbofan engine and the required volume of investment in terms of money and time for development of one such indigenously. Still follow on the version of Kaveri project is already on.

The $63m for Mk1A is the unit cost, if you want to add all of its associated costs it could end up being close to a Rafale.

How you came to this conclusion that USD 63 is only the cost of bare Tejas MK1A?

 

[Armand2REP]

Many of the equipment of foreign origin that is present in Tejas has its indigenous replacements getting ready. Which are at various levels already. Once available they will be replaced. We do not have such luxury with imported equipment. And that's Strategic Independence.

At Tejas MK-2 level Tejas will have Indian EW, AESA, IRST, LDP to name few. Some of these systems will naturally replace imported systems in MK1 versions.

Only major equipment to be of foreign origin in Tejas MK-2 would be GE-414. Which is quite ok considering the technological complexity of a Turbofan engine and the required volume of investment in terms of money and time for development of one such indigenously. Still follow on the version of Kaveri project is already on.


How you came to this conclusion that USD 63 is only the cost of bare Tejas MK1A?

So do it when it is ready. Don't buy a bunch of foreign equipment that has no commonality with the future variants. It is bad enough to fly 10 different types of planes but to have a type with completely different sets of equipment is a logistical nightmare.

The foreign components wouldn't be replaced a few years after you purchased it, that would be the ultimate waste of money.

if GE is not going to transfer technology after buying hundreds of engines the whole deal must be scrapped.

 

[Rahul Singh]

So do it when it is ready. Don't buy a bunch of foreign equipment that has no commonality with the future variants. It is bad enough to fly 10 different types of planes but to have a type with completely different sets of equipment is a logistical nightmare.

The foreign components wouldn't be replaced a few years after you purchased it, that would be the ultimate waste of money.

if GE is not going to transfer technology after buying hundreds of engines the whole deal must be scrapped.

We are not buying any so-called Single Engine MMRCA. We are not even buying any other twin-engine MMRCA. At most we will do is repeat 36 more for Rafale.

Ultimate waste of money and time is looking at a foreign OEM now and then for every bit of change required in systems bought from it.

For ToT of engine. Why just blame GE? Tell me who else is ready? Is SNECMA ready?

 

[Armand2REP]

We are not buying any so-called Single Engine MMRCA. We are not even buying any other twin-engine MMRCA. At most we will do is repeat 36 more for Rafale.

Ultimate waste of money and time is looking at a foreign OEM now and then for every bit of change required in systems bought from it.

For ToT of engine. Why just blame GE? Tell me who else is ready? Is SNECMA ready?

You are buying 114 MMRCA according to the RFI.

Ultimate waste of money is buying a bunch of foreign kit just to swap it out for indigenous kit a few years later. You must get the money's worth out of it first.

Safran has been ready with a contract ready to sign for re-engined Kaveri with M88 cores.

 

[Prashant12]

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[amit19]

the overall benefits Tejas brings on table r more then enough to knock out any foreign jet unless they r giving us some UFOs at Tejas's price. If we look long term, Tejas will be the most economic jet considering operating and upgrades

 

[Aghore_King]

the overall benefits Tejas brings on table r more then enough to knock out any foreign jet unless they r giving us some UFOs at Tejas's price. If we look long term, Tejas will be the most economic jet considering operating and upgrades

Initial cost escalation is due to setting up infrastructure and machinery, training of manpower, etc for bulk orders, once it is accomplished, further per unit price shall be low. This is the one time price of creating aerospace ecosystem in the country.

 

[cyclops]

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[Rahul Singh]

You are buying 114 MMRCA according to the RFI.

Those RFIs are making rounds for 15 years. I think you have been here long enough to know that.
Regardless if PM Modi is interested in buying 100 plus MRCA from outside he would have signed the deal years ago. Instead, he just signed for a piecemeal purchase of 36 Rafale. Why? Maybe to save Indo-french relations. Once he gets re-elected most probably he will purchase addition 36 Rafale to bring meaning to IAF's Rafale fleet. beyond this every bit of money will be diverted towards MWF and AMCA.

Ultimate waste of money is buying a bunch of foreign kit just to swap it out for indigenous kit a few years later. You must get the money's worth out of it first.

Safran has been ready with a contract ready to sign for re-engined Kaveri with M88 cores.

It is COST OF STRATEGIC INDEPENDENCE, not ultimate waste.

The ULTIMATE WASTE of MONEY, however, is paying on compulsion USD ~45 Million for french upgrade kit per Mirage 2000--which did not even included engine-- when an Isreali upgrade kit was being offered at half the price.

That is why no cost is a greater cost for Strategic Independence.

As for the engine. M88 core without full ToT of the hot section at an exorbitant cost is not much better than buying GE-414 without any ToT. That is why GTRE-SNECMA deal is going nowhere.