LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Bleh]

India's Tejas fighter jet debuts at LIMA Langkawi 2019

Bit lukewarm... Nothing compared to Bahrain Airshow's performance!
Whats with so much straight flight & low-G turns?

Maybe the owner didn't release the best parts in this edited video.

 

[Anikastha]

000000000000000000
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[Saichand K]

Now Tejas looks like a true professional piece of work. Look at that finish !

 

[indiatester]

Bit lukewarm... Nothing compared to Bahrain Airshow's performance!
Whats with so much straight flight & low-G turns?

Maybe the owner didn't release the best parts in this edited video.

Our guys can do far better AoA take off. It did look a bit dull almost as if the pilot was served bad coffee and he paid back in kind.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Forget Mark 1A! That deal might be even inked in 2020. It's going to happen. Guaranteed. HAL should have kept ramping up production... because when that order is placed, their capacity to build would still be 8 per year.
(..Or, if i'm wrong, then they plan to slowly raise that capacity to a squadron per year by 2020 after which Mark 1A will start rolling out. Would save money.)

But why wasn't more FOC Tejas added to the present order? That's what bugs me...

HAL won't be able to place orders for subsystems to Tier 1,2,3 vendors if it has no guarantee of orders and a steady flow of funds.

It is well known that it will take 3 years from firm contract to delivery of first Tejas MK-1A.

More the signing of contract gets delayed the more that date will slip further. Right now it stands at April 2022.

 

[abingdonboy]

Maybe IAF didn't order more because the price for the Mk1 jumped from $23m to $41m, now they want $63m for the 1A. So in reality it is HAL's inability to run proper cost controls that is the real issue for further orders.

If HAL has to move its production to 3rd parties they become nothing more than a middle man holding company.

You get what you pay for. The engine alone is probably $4-5m per jet then you have the AESAR, SPJ, HMD etc etc.

Show me what other 4.5 gen fighter with AESAR, BVRAAM integrated that has a range >100km etc etc would come in at less than MK1A.

And if IAF are so upset arbitrary price why order so few? Surely they aren’t stupid enough to not understand economies of scale? The reason why F35 price has been able to drop so much is because 100s of them are committed to.

How else is HAL meant to amortise costs? Again, stupidly low order volumes are to blame

 

[Shashwat]

You get what you pay for. The engine alone is probably $4-5m per jet then you have the AESAR, SPJ, HMD etc etc.

Show me what other 4.5 gen fighter with AESAR, BVRAAM integrated that has a range >100km etc etc would come in at less than MK1A.

And if IAF are so upset arbitrary price why order so few? Surely they aren’t stupid enough to not understand economies of scale? The reason why F35 price has been able to drop so much is because 100s of them are committed to.

How else is HAL meant to amortise costs? Again, stupidly low order volumes are to blame

not 100s but in 1000s - around ~3000 and coming. 3 frigging thousaaaand! Did I mention there are more potential customers?

 

[abingdonboy]

not 100s but in 1000s - around ~3000 and coming. 3 frigging thousaaaand! Did I mention there are more potential customers?

Indeed and the largest customer(s)? USAF/USN/USMC.

This is the difference.

IAF more than happy to go shopping for 100s of foreign fighters but only commits to 20+20 LCA?

American MIC exists because it has the US military has its prime customer whilst Indian armed forces aren’t largest importers on earth.


Don’t care anymore, if armed forces are going to play these stupid games then they need to be put in their place- impose a ban on all imported deals above $2bn and ensure that 60% of their CAPEX can be spent on domestic products only.

 

[Bleh]

Tejas sharp turns at Lima-2019!

 

[Bhadra]

Stop this IAF / institution bashing and rona dhona. Acing like Pakistanis to raise controversies everywhere and bring in third party intervention. That is where Vadras / Bhandaries and Micheals come in to make a killing.

Services are users and customer. They have a role and a task entrusted to them. They have a right to ask for things to fulfill their roles. Make things as customers will buy and not to enhance your commissions.Good things will always be accepted as in past and present.

Harping on institutional interests whether by makers or user beyond a point is not good for anyone. It is bad for our Nation.

Do not convert this forum into "Shyapa" machine.

 

[indiatester]

Services are users and customer. They have a role and a task entrusted to them. They have a right to ask for things to fulfill their roles. Make things as customers will buy and not to enhance your commissions.Good things will always be accepted as in past and present.

I disagree with this users/customer differentiation. Indian armed forces must not only ask for the weapons they require, but also actively participate in creating the design and knowledge base in India ala DARPA.
Their thinking should not be just the immediate future, but far into the future too. Thats what leaders are for. I can accept demands made by Colonels for their immediate requirements, but everyone above should focus on how and where they can be made better in India and how to achieve strategic independence. But then I digress.

 

[Bhadra]

I disagree with this users/customer differentiation. Indian armed forces must not only ask for the weapons they require, but also actively participate in creating the design and knowledge base in India ala DARPA.
Their thinking should not be just the immediate future, but far into the future too. Thats what leaders are for. I can accept demands made by Colonels for their immediate requirements, but everyone above should focus on how and where they can be made better in India and how to achieve strategic independence. But then I digress.

You create an alternatives to DRDO in the form of another research institution like DARPA and see the fun. There will strikes, demonstrations, lobbing and vote bank politics. And look at DARPA budget and funding. If India resort to DARPA like organisation then research funds which DRDO has been thriving on is bound to diminish or shared.

DRDO unfortunately has its institutional and socio political interest deeply entrenched in status quo . DARPA can not run like a Job Provider, 50 per cent reservationist organisation like DRDO.

people quote the US system without pointing out the fundamentals of the system. In USA, private capital creates technology, science and research with a motives of Capital Economy - profits by monopoly. They have very big stakes in their Armed Forces and international War Industry. They have a "Risk" and"Loss" components as part of their activities. And it is not that whatever they make is always accepted by their Armed Forces. Superiority and Success of their militaries is core to their continuation of business and profis. It is not that F-35 will always be thrust down the throat of their airforce. They change and innovate and bring betterment to their systems to sell, cut their losses and give something back to "Capital" invested.

What is in stake for an organisation like HAL or DRDO? Not their reservationist jobs, not their Capital invested, not their profits? The only thing at stake is their commissions which are generated by their "economic" activities. The cry for numbers is always linked to that. Why are they worried by the cost when the govt is buyer? It is numbers and order which generates more "commission" Tatra style.

Blaming the forces is a good ploy to hit the one who has less power of relations and they would not return back the mud thrown on them. If more orders are given to DPSU what will happen to India's bureaucracy and politicians? DRDO dare not hit them - they being protectors of their jobs, funds and reservations.

Armed Forces only get crushed in this churn of self seekers and dishonest politician Institution.

I have been reading some particular members for last 15 years who have made it their "Dharma" to foul mouth the Armed Forces as psychopathological habit. For them being a "General" is worst than being a Chinese or Pakistanis.

 

[indiatester]

You create an alternatives to DRDO in the form of another research institution like DARPA and see the fun. There will strikes, demonstrations, lobbing and vote bank politics. And look at DARPA budget and funding. If India resort to DARPA like organisation then research funds which DRDO has been thriving on is bound to diminish or shared.

DRDO unfortunately has its institutional and socio political interest deeply entrenched in status quo . DARPA can not run like a Job Provider, 50 per cent reservationist organisation like DRDO.

people quote the US system without pointing out the fundamentals of the system. In USA, private capital creates technology, science and research with a motives of Capital Economy - profits by monopoly. They have very big stakes in their Armed Forces and international War Industry. They have a "Risk" and"Loss" components as part of their activities. And it is not that whatever they make is always accepted by their Armed Forces. Superiority and Success of their militaries is core to their continuation of business and profis. It is not that F-35 will always be thrust down the throat of their airforce. They change and innovate and bring betterment to their systems to sell, cut their losses and give something back to "Capital" invested.

What is in stake for an organisation like HAL or DRDO? Not their reservationist jobs, not their Capital invested, not their profits? The only thing at stake is their commissions which are generated by their "economic" activities. The cry for numbers is always linked to that. Why are they worried by the cost when the govt is buyer? It is numbers and order which generates more "commission" Tatra style.

Blaming the forces is a good ploy to hit the one who has less power of relations and they would not return back the mud thrown on them. If more orders are given to DPSU what will happen to India's bureaucracy and politicians? DRDO dare not hit them - they being protectors of their jobs, funds and reservations.

Armed Forces only get crushed in this churn of self seekers and dishonest politician Institution.

I have been reading some particular members for last 15 years who have made it their "Dharma" to foul mouth the Armed Forces as psychopathological habit. For them being a "General" is worst than being a Chinese or Pakistanis.

I didn't say it was going to be easy.
Generals are not supposed to give excuses IMHO (and I am not bad mouthing them).

My point is that Indian armed forces are created from the same people who go to other institutes too. They are equally responsible to create weapons they want with the quality and quantity they want. They can't say, we are just users/consumers.

Just as an example, we networking equipment to Reliance. They beat the sh!t out of our specs and make us modify existing software and make us build new hardware to suit what they want.
They do this with all vendors. They work with vendors.

 

[Bhadra]

I didn't say it was going to be easy.
Generals are not supposed to give excuses IMHO (and I am not bad mouthing them).

My point is that Indian armed forces are created from the same people who go to other institutes too. They are equally responsible to create weapons they want with the quality and quantity they want. They can't say, we are just users/consumers.

Just as an example, we networking equipment to Reliance. They beat the sh!t out of our specs and make us modify existing software and make us build new hardware to suit what they want.
They do this with all vendors. They work with vendors.

One has to be organised and equipped for the intended job / mission. Armed Forces can very well do and they did it much before DRDO or DPSU came into existence.

If one goes a little bit into Indian history, it would not be difficult to find that all the jewels of India - Indian railways, Indian Irrigation system (Ganga Yamuna canal systems, Doab irrigation system, Western Punjab Irrigation system, Kauvery Irrigation system were conceived, created, built and run by Corps of Engineers of Indian Army. All major ports and modern shipping by Indian Navy. All your major and now being revived airports were created by Indian Air Force particularly during second World War. All logistic installation big roads, bridges, ferries, inland transportation systems were creation of Indian Armed Forces under the British.

All your big and beautiful cities like Chennai, Calcutta, New Delhi, Jalandhar, Ludhiana, Ferozepur, Fazilka, Lahore, Peshawar, quetta, Karachi, Bhopal, jhansi etc etc all are creations of British time Cantonments. Those were not cities but for Indian Armed Forces.

All your basic industries and industrialists like Tata, Birla, Llyods, shipyards, Marwari and Parasi developed to meets requirement of Indian Armed Forces. All modern agriculture came up in Western Punjab to support war efforts of the British in Aghanistan. Their contribution in Medical field has also been immense.

All your India knowledge, archeology, history, geography, culture, language, Forestry, mineralogy, Geology, agriculture was wide opened by British Army officers - the largest ever contribution by any group.
But let us not get into that.

They can still do it. But the question is, should they do it? What then will do their primary job. Independent India's defense requirements are vastly different from colonial India. Today defence technologies are somewhere else.

Transfer the entire ISRO, DRDO, DPSU resources, budget and Scientist to Armed Forces and then see things for yourselves. I apply your logic - we also come from you. We will do a good job. Though even today Indian Armed Forces have the largest pool of technically qualified manpower but to deal with equipments made by others.

But what you seem to be suggesting is to do something out of thin air.

 

[indiatester]

But the question is, should they do it? What then will do their primary job. Independent India's defense requirements are vastly different from colonial India. Today defence technologies are somewhere else.

Transfer the entire ISRO, DRDO, DPSU resources, budget and Scientist to Armed Forces and then see things for yourselves. I apply your logic - we also come from you. We will do a good job. Though even today Indian Armed Forces have the largest pool of technically qualified manpower but to deal with equipments made by others.

But what you seem to be suggesting is to do something out of thin air.

You are right, I am asking to create something out of thin air as it does not exist properly right now.

You just gave a huge list of things that army had done earlier. Replicate it to some extent now for the sake of long term security. Every one has a responsibility for long term and strategic thinking. Specifically the armed forces ecosystem as they are on the border and know the threats enemies designs.

I would like to end this topic here. But, I still request the armed forces to not adapt a common "user/consumer". They must engage with manufacturers, supply chain, universities, research institutes and centers of excellence to ensure others understand what is needed and for armed forces to understand how fast the world is moving.

 

[Armand2REP]

You get what you pay for. The engine alone is probably $4-5m per jet then you have the AESAR, SPJ, HMD etc etc.

Show me what other 4.5 gen fighter with AESAR, BVRAAM integrated that has a range >100km etc etc would come in at less than MK1A.

And if IAF are so upset arbitrary price why order so few? Surely they aren’t stupid enough to not understand economies of scale? The reason why F35 price has been able to drop so much is because 100s of them are committed to.

How else is HAL meant to amortise costs? Again, stupidly low order volumes are to blame

If you upgraded MiG-21s with the same radar as the Jaguars you would have an AESAR, SPJ, HMD, BVRAAM that costs less than just about anything. That is not what has driven the cost from $23m to $63m.

 

[Tang]

If you upgraded MiG-21s with the same radar as the Jaguars you would have an AESAR, SPJ, HMD, BVRAAM that costs less than just about anything. That is not what has driven the cost from $23m to $63m.

The performance characteristics of mig 21 is much lower than Tejas.

 

[Bleh]

If you upgraded MiG-21s with the same radar as the Jaguars you would have an AESAR, SPJ, HMD, BVRAAM that costs less than just about anything.

New extra tech is the reason P-51 was costlier than Sopwith Camel... F-86 was costlier than P-51... F-105 was costlier than F-86... F-4 was costlier than F-105... F-16 is costlier than F-4... F-21 is costlier than F-16... & F-35 is costlier than F-21...

That is not what has driven the cost from $23m to $63m.

Really? What has? ...& What do pull that information out of (i'll assume it's not your ass)?

 

[Prashant12]

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[Armand2REP]

New extra tech is the reason P-51 was costlier than Sopwith Camel... F-86 was costlier than P-51... F-105 was costlier than F-86... F-4 was costlier than F-105... F-16 is costlier than F-4... F-21 is costlier than F-16... & F-35 is costlier than F-21...

Really? What has? ...& What do pull that information out of (i'll assume it's not your ass)?

You are talking about inflation, no amount of inflation has gone 200% in 5 years. The new tech doesn't account for $40 million increase from the first production to the 1A either. An AESA radar is a few million, not tens of millions.