LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[jai jaganath]

Ok. Let me make things more clear to you here. Lets say you are making biryani and buying potatos from me for that. You made a deal that over the period of 5 years, you would be purchasing 5000 kgs of potatos from me. So while signing the deal, would you sign the deal in todays price or would keep in mind the price inflation of next 5 years too?

Fund allocation for 83 Tejas was around 50,000 Crore. But in 2021 the deal was signed for ~37,000 crore. Delivery of those jets would begin from 2024. So while signing the deal, value of INR against USD was 74 rupees and today its 83 rupees. You have to keep this in mind as we would be paying USD for many subcomponents of those 83 jets today.

So, just understand that while giving DAC approval, you are earmarking the amount. The actual contract value would definitely change after negotiation which would start after CCS approval. Same is the case with MKI upgrade. These are long time process where you have to calculate for future instead of present.

@Satish Sharma, hope you got your reply too.

Sir when do u expect ccs approval for mki upgrade and 97 more tejas

 

[Chinmoy]

Sir when do u expect ccs approval for mki upgrade and 97 more tejas

2024 for Tejas, MKI and ATAGS.

 

[jai jaganath]

2024 for Tejas, MKI and ATAGS.

Q1 maybe ???

 

[vin bharat mahan]

Laughs in Y20B kunpeng.

Talking sheet like this while our MKIs fall behind them in almost every specification is hilarious.
J16s are not raptors but we don't even have something that rivals them spec wise let alone they will be working alongside fajins.
And our super sukhois are few years away.

did u read my comment fully?? i never said our su 30 mki is better than xhinese j10 or j16. although rafale is better than all sukhoi if not j20 for sure.
i said we r quality nd quantity wise legging behind chinese...just like chinese is legging behind in quality nd quantity wise american (specially in air power).
so if war brokes neither chinese r sure about their win against indians....neither american r sure about their win against chinese. coz if a country fighting in its home turf, it can surpass enemy quality nd quantity advantage "most of time in history".

 

[vin bharat mahan]

This thread.

meanwhile other viewers :-

 

[Samej Jangir]

Ok. Let me make things more clear to you here. Lets say you are making biryani and buying potatos from me for that. You made a deal that over the period of 5 years, you would be purchasing 5000 kgs of potatos from me. So while signing the deal, would you sign the deal in todays price or would keep in mind the price inflation of next 5 years too?

Fund allocation for 83 Tejas was around 50,000 Crore. But in 2021 the deal was signed for ~37,000 crore. Delivery of those jets would begin from 2024. So while signing the deal, value of INR against USD was 74 rupees and today its 83 rupees. You have to keep this in mind as we would be paying USD for many subcomponents of those 83 jets today.

So, just understand that while giving DAC approval, you are earmarking the amount. The actual contract value would definitely change after negotiation which would start after CCS approval. Same is the case with MKI upgrade. These are long time process where you have to calculate for future instead of present.

@Satish Sharma, hope you got your reply too.

Try to understand my point - the engines cost just $5-6 million. The radars will be Indian and most other critical components will be from India. So, why does it need even 500 crores per plane? Why do Indian components cost so highly?

 

[Satish Sharma]

Try to understand my point - the engines cost just $5-6 million. The radars will be Indian and most other critical components will be from India. So, why does it need even 500 crores per plane? Why do Indian components cost so highly?

To establish new industries to manufacture it, to establish new manufacturing plants ,may be I don't think mass production of radars have began yet.
and engine costs 5-6 million but there are other thing which we need to keep running it. Operation supports equipments as well. Anyways engines are not upgraded. we can only wait for it

 

[The Maverick]

I saw a unit cost of 315 crore per each Tejas in the new order of 97 jets
That's around 40 million USA dollars
This was on defense matrix news
That's around 4 billion dollars
The total costs of project is 65000 crore or 8 billion dollars
I'm guessing this is the cost of setting up.manufacturing assembly plants
After sales support for decade
Price hikes inflation
Weapons maybe

 

[Samej Jangir]

To establish new industries to manufacture it, to establish new manufacturing plants ,may be I don't think mass production of radars have began yet.
and engine costs 5-6 million but there are other thing which we need to keep running it. Operation supports equipments as well. Anyways engines are not upgraded. we can only wait for it

I have already said that the cost of infrastructure is included in the 83 MK1A deal. The next batch should be cheaper as it should have no major fixed cost component

 

[Tridev123]

Tejas Mk1 Order is a compulsion as we do not have MWF in hand. Had we had MWF, It would have been a far batter option than MK1A.

No,both have their own defined roles.
Do we need to scramble an MWF every time an inferior quality Pak JF!7 comes near or enters Indian airspace.
The Tejas Mk2 will be overkill for the JF17.

The LCA mk1/mk1a was originally conceived as an replacement for the Mig21.The Air Force did not ask for a bigger plane with canards right from the beginning.

The LCA Mk2 is an evolution of the mk1design.The experience gained and the capabilities achieved allowed us to think bigger and better.

Without the LCA mk1/mk1a there would be no LCAmk2.

Let us not deride or reduce the significance/importance of the LCA mk1.

But for the LCA mk1/mk1a to play the role of an light interceptor like the Mig21 it has to be capable of taking off fast, service friendly and low turnaround time.And having a decent combat capability with advanced weapons.

I guess at least 2 LCA mk1a's will be
launched to take on every intruder aircraft.A 2:1 ratio.Guessing a bit.

 

[Samej Jangir]

No,both have their own defined roles.
Do we need to scramble an MWF every time an inferior quality Pak JF!7 comes near or enters Indian airspace.
The Tejas Mk2 will be overkill for the JF17.

The LCA mk1/mk1a was originally conceived as an replacement for the Mig21.The Air Force did not ask for a bigger plane with canards right from the beginning.

The LCA Mk2 is an evolution of the mk1design.The experience gained and the capabilities achieved allowed us to think bigger and better.

Without the LCA mk1/mk1a there would be no LCAmk2.

Let us not deride or reduce the significance/importance of the LCA mk1.

But for the LCA mk1/mk1a to play the role of an light interceptor like the Mig21 it has to be capable of taking off fast, service friendly and low turnaround time.And having a decent combat capability with advanced weapons.

I guess at least 2 LCA mk1a's will be
launched to take on every intruder aircraft.A 2:1 ratio.Guessing a bit.

Yes, MK1A is a stepping stone for MK2. But that does not mean Mk1 is capable. It has too short range to be able to act offensively. It is mostly suitable for defensive roles like interception. But it would have been better to use a plane which is capable for both offensive and defensive roles rather than a single role jet.

The problem with having large number of Mk1A is that during wars when India will have to go on the offensive, there will be a shortage of aircrafts as these Mk1s and Mk1A are only capable of short range flights. This will mean the effective number of planes for usage in offensive actions will be significantly reduced

 

[karn]

Yes, MK1A is a stepping stone for MK2. But that does not mean Mk1 is capable. It has too short range to be able to act offensively. It is mostly suitable for defensive roles like interception. But it would have been better to use a plane which is capable for both offensive and defensive roles rather than a single role jet.

The problem with having large number of Mk1A is that during wars when India will have to go on the offensive, there will be a shortage of aircrafts as these Mk1s and Mk1A are only capable of short range flights. This will mean the effective number of planes for usage in offensive actions will be significantly reduced

They number of long range twin engine aircraft is more than the single engine aircraft in the IAF . And this will remain the case until Tejas mk2 s deliveries are halfway done . By then Amca would hopefully start production . The Tejas mk1a give a good option for correcting this lopsided force structure of the IAF.

 

[spacemarine2023]

No,both have their own defined roles.
Do we need to scramble an MWF every time an inferior quality Pak JF!7 comes near or enters Indian airspace.
The Tejas Mk2 will be overkill for the JF17.

The LCA mk1/mk1a was originally conceived as an replacement for the Mig21.The Air Force did not ask for a bigger plane with canards right from the beginning.

The LCA Mk2 is an evolution of the mk1design.The experience gained and the capabilities achieved allowed us to think bigger and better.

Without the LCA mk1/mk1a there would be no LCAmk2.

Let us not deride or reduce the significance/importance of the LCA mk1.

But for the LCA mk1/mk1a to play the role of an light interceptor like the Mig21 it has to be capable of taking off fast, service friendly and low turnaround time.And having a decent combat capability with advanced weapons.

I guess at least 2 LCA mk1a's will be
launched to take on every intruder aircraft.A 2:1 ratio.Guessing a bit.

primary role is intercepting which it can perform much better than Mig-21

 

[Samej Jangir]

They number of long range twin engine aircraft is more than the single engine aircraft in the IAF . And this will remain the case until Tejas mk2 s deliveries are halfway done . By then Amca would hopefully start production . The Tejas mk1a give a good option for correcting this lopsided force structure of the IAF.

The long range offensive aircrafts are Su30 & Mig29 only. Mirage2000 is also longer range due to 4000l fuel capacity but its radars & flight systems are obsolete. Jaguars are unfit as fighters but more a CAS plane. Mig21, Mig27s are obsolete & set for retirement. India does not really have enough long range fighters. AMCA is not a good option for mass manufacturing as its stealth makes it expensive and maintenance intensive. MWF is the answer to Indian needs as it is cheap to make and maintain in large numbers & is a good replacement for Mirage2000s and Mig29s but much cheaper and indigenous.

 

[karn]

The long range offensive aircrafts are Su30 & Mig29 only. Mirage2000 is also longer range due to 4000l fuel capacity but its radars & flight systems are obsolete. Jaguars are unfit as fighters but more a CAS plane. Mig21, Mig27s are obsolete & set for retirement. India does not really have enough long range fighters. AMCA is not a good option for mass manufacturing as its stealth makes it expensive and maintenance intensive. MWF is the answer to Indian needs as it is cheap to make and maintain in large numbers & is a good replacement for Mirage2000s and Mig29s but much cheaper and indigenous.

I too hope that some of the mk1a orders get converted to mk2 orders . But since we have not even seen an mk2 there is no point hoping for it .
Regardless .. my point is the majority of the IAF is long range heavy fighters, a single engine cheap to maintain aircraft was needed yesterday to reduce opex of the I A F

 

[MirageBlue]

Try to understand my point - the engines cost just $5-6 million. The radars will be Indian and most other critical components will be from India. So, why does it need even 500 crores per plane? Why do Indian components cost so highly?

First of all, the specifications of the second order of 97 more Tejas Mk1A has NOT been finalized. Even earlier, Air Cmde Muthanna (former Tejas TP at HAL) had stated that there should be updates made to the Tejas Mk1A ordered as part of the 97 unit batch to replace parts/avionics/items/LRUs that would have become more obsolescent in the 5-6 years that it will take for those 97 to get on the assembly line.

Even the IAF ACM Chaudhari confirmed the same that these 97 would have some more changes compared to the 83, since they'll be coming onto the assembly line after 2027.

Once HAL knows what the IAF is asking for, it'll be able to respond with a contract figure. Till then it is all speculation.

 

[NutCracker]

I have already said that the cost of infrastructure is included in the 83 MK1A deal. The next batch should be cheaper as it should have no major fixed cost component

Rubbish .
Are they gonna make extra 97 from same 16/year infra, no , they will be making at 24/32 per year at its peak from other parallel assembly lines. More workforce and machinery will be needed. Till now only land has been chosen and basic shades are created for extra line.

 

[Chinmoy]

Try to understand my point - the engines cost just $5-6 million. The radars will be Indian and most other critical components will be from India. So, why does it need even 500 crores per plane? Why do Indian components cost so highly?

You are not understanding the point.

On what basis you have calculated the engine price? On todays rate. But you are signing the deal today to take delivery after 1 year. It means while signing the deal, the engine manufacturer will charge you at the approx rate of price which they seems will be fit after 1 year. Same is the case with every indigenous components and subcomponents. When price quotation is asked for there is a clause of price validity mentioned in it. If you have gone through any RFP, it is mentioned that price quoted should be valid for minimum 3 years in case of capital acquisition.

So if I am the seller and I have to keep my price valid for next 3 years, today I'll quote a price at which I could supply product after 3 years. Because I have to also take care of the manufacturing cost which is going to rise in next 3 year anyway.

And from where you got the idea that cost of infrastructure for the next batch of 97 aircraft was included in the previous order of 83 as you mentioned to @Satish Sharma ?

 

[Chinmoy]

Rubbish .
Are they gonna make extra 97 from same 16/year infra, no , they will be making at 24/32 per year at its peak from other parallel assembly lines. More workforce and machinery will be needed. Till now only land has been chosen and basic shades are created for extra line.

Leave alone HAL, people forget that this is the price IAF asked approval for.

With each inducted squadron, they would have to work on the base infrastructure too which is also included in this price.

 

[Samej Jangir]

Rubbish .
Are they gonna make extra 97 from same 16/year infra, no , they will be making at 24/32 per year at its peak from other parallel assembly lines. More workforce and machinery will be needed. Till now only land has been chosen and basic shades are created for extra line.

Leave alone HAL, people forget that this is the price IAF asked approval for.

With each inducted squadron, they would have to work on the base infrastructure too which is also included in this price.

The assembly line cost if not very high but the cost of manufacturing the parts is high as it requires complex machinery and tooling. The machinery used for 83 MK1A can also be used for 97 orders as the typical use of machinery to make parts are not very high. Also, 2 shifts can be made to operate the same machine without any additional fixed cost. This is why I am asking as to why there is no deduction of fixed infrastructure cost