LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[BON PLAN]

Too Good to be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this News is True MRFA been delayed to eternity and much difficult to recover and salvaged.

If true - Congratulation Guys!!!!!!!

it is delayed beyond 2026.

Bye-Bye MRFA !!!!!

MRFA delayed is, in my opinion, a green light for another G to G Rafale deal.

 

[NutCracker]

MRFA delayed is, in my opinion, a green light for another G to G Rafale deal.

With 26 MRCBF

 

[BON PLAN]

With 26 MRCBF

There was a rumor in France about a G to G deal for 26 Rafale M + 36 Rafale C/B, ie a total of 62.

 

[NutCracker]

There was a rumor in France about a G to G deal for 26 Rafale M + 36 Rafale C/B, ie a total of 62.

Very likely outcome.

Minimum 4 sq of Rafale needed as spearhead accompanied by MK1A/2 against western front of J-20 and J-10c.

Mig29 and MK1A/MK2 should be enough for western front.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

MRFA delayed is, in my opinion, a green light for another G to G Rafale deal.

Nobody is denying this.... possibility

But this contract wont get signed before Election of 2024.

Lets assume that Signing of Contract is done in 2024, and let us ignore Order Book of Dassault Rafale and availability for production Batch for India.

The delivery of the First Fighter cannot happen before lead years i.e. 3 years

Which means if all goes well then FIRST Rafale will be arriving NO BEFORE 2028.

Well in the Ball Park of Tejas MK-II, when the delivery of the same will be starting.

So it can be presumed safely The Quantity of Rafale will be no More then 36-54.

If negotiations gets delayed for further then 2025.......... then

Bye-Bye Rafale!!! can also possible.


Best Bet For Rafale : Pray for Early Signing & Delay in MK-II program.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nobody is denying this.... possibility

But this contract wont get signed before Election of 2024.

Lets assume that Signing of Contract is done in 2024, and let us ignore Order Book of Dassault Rafale and availability for production Batch for India.

The delivery of the First Fighter cannot happen before lead years i.e. 3 years

Which means if all goes well then FIRST Rafale will be arriving NO BEFORE 2028.

Well in the Ball Park of Tejas MK-II, when the delivery of the same will be starting.

So it can be presumed safely The Quantity of Rafale will be no More then 36-54.

If negotiations gets delayed for further then 2025.......... then

Bye-Bye Rafale!!! can also possible.


Best Bet For Rafale : Pray for Early Signing & Delay in MK-II program.

I hope India to not made the same mistake than with M2000 : too few numbers.
36 Rafale, once you have the test benchs, the bases accomodated, the trainig courses, the spares, and you have paid for dedicated developpments is a little bit idiot. 72 seems a minimum.

And Tejas is late, so will be tekas Mk2, because HAL remains HAL. So your best answer with a mature product, delivered on time and on spec is Rafale.

 

[WarmongerLSK]

And Tejas is late, so will be tekas Mk2

Irrelevant, both are ours.

 

[NutCracker]

And Tejas is late, so will be tekas Mk2,

Nope , we need not just technological but numerical superiority too in our western front against mediocre 150+ JF-17 and handfull of J-10C. So MK1A and MK2 are ideal platforms .

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

I hope India to not made the same mistake than with M2000 : too few numbers.
36 Rafale, once you have the test benchs, the bases accomodated, the trainig courses, the spares, and you have paid for dedicated developpments is a little bit idiot. 72 seems a minimum.

And Tejas is late, so will be tekas Mk2, because HAL remains HAL. So your best answer with a mature product, delivered on time and on spec is Rafale.

That time has long past

Indian MIC is now capable enough

Had any other country won't even paid a heed to to the matter

 

[MonaLazy]

I hope India to not made the same mistake than with M2000 : too few numbers.
36 Rafale, once you have the test benchs, the bases accomodated, the trainig courses, the spares, and you have paid for dedicated developpments is a little bit idiot. 72 seems a minimum.

And Tejas is late, so will be tekas Mk2, because HAL remains HAL. So your best answer with a mature product, delivered on time and on spec is Rafale.

France also had the easy option of just buying F-16s but instead chose to go the whole hog with Rafale. Later for the engines again France had the option to take it easy by simply buying F404 off the shelf yet they chose to invent the M88. That is a wonderful precedent to follow because great nations think like that.

 

[silverghost]

France also had the easy option of just buying F-16s but instead chose to go the whole hog with Rafale. Later for the engines again France had the option to take it easy by simply buying F404 off the shelf yet they chose to invent the M88. That is a wonderful precedent to follow because great nations think like that.

Correction: France didn't have to buy F16 because they had a comparable french fighter jet (Mirage 2000). Both are 70's designs so one replacing the other didn't arise. Rafale is a little different for France had the opportunity to join the Eurofighter project & it didn't. The reasons were two fold:

1. Design concept. France wanted a multi-role fighter with carrier-borne-capability, while the other countries wanted a dedicated interceptor. It is only later that the Eurofighter consortium have tried to convert the Typhoon to a multi-role fighter to cater to a market worldwide.
2. The French wanted to be the supplier of engines. UK too wanted to the same, other countries wanted a US engine because it was cheaper. The UK prevailed.

In short, the French felt undermined and decided to pull out of the project. There are other reasons too but these to my mind are the main ones. The Rafale dev. started in 1985 & the engine development too started a year or two later. The F404 was a considered option but was dropped because it didn't meet the requirements back then. The French have had Safran (founded in 1945) with its M series of engines, hence didn't have to design an engine from scratch. Also, it's worthwhile to note Safran operates two joint ventures with GE Aviation: CFM International, and CFM Materials. This is where they get the technology for the alloys for the hot sections which India has been struggling to get.

BTW, the French had an in-between fighter jet named Mirage 4000 which was a twin-engined fighter powered by SNECMA M53 but when the Saudis decided to buy F15 in significant numbers the plan was dropped. However, you can see a lot of design ideas from Mirage 4000 in Rafale.

 

[MirageBlue]

There was a rumor in France about a G to G deal for 26 Rafale M + 36 Rafale C/B, ie a total of 62.

But that number is not sufficient for Dassault to agree to set up an assembly line in India.

If the IAF is pragmatic (which it is unfortunately not) they would go to the MoD and the GoI and tell them that they are willing to dump MRFA and instead go for 74 Rafales (4 squadrons worth) which in addition to the 36 already in service would give them 110 Rafales in all. That is less than 1 squadron less than the original MRCA wanted in all. Lump it with the 26 MRCBF and you have 100 Rafale C/M to be built in India.

That would give the GoI the leeway to negotiate with Dassault for an Indian assembly line that would also be a full MRO for Rafales from Indonesia, UAE, etc. It would cut short the minimum of 2 years that a MRFA contest will take to arrive at a winner, prior to any negotiations on contract signing, which itself will be quite complex.

 

[MirageBlue]

I hope India to not made the same mistake than with M2000 : too few numbers.
36 Rafale, once you have the test benchs, the bases accomodated, the trainig courses, the spares, and you have paid for dedicated developpments is a little bit idiot. 72 seems a minimum.

And Tejas is late, so will be tekas Mk2, because HAL remains HAL. So your best answer with a mature product, delivered on time and on spec is Rafale.

While Tejas is the future for the IAF and Indian aerospace with the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA variants all being in some or the other way linked to the Tejas program, I do agree with you that the timelines for these programs are very aggressive and there are likely to be slippages.

Given how things work at HAL, they typically need to go to the GoI or MoD for funding and approvals ALL the time and the process is not smooth. HAL isn't a private company like Dassault where top management can take a call and approvals, funding, etc flow from that. HAL is a public sector company and that shows in how much time it takes to get things going. Just a case in point - the time taken to go from Tejas Mk2 CDR approval to CCS approval that is supposed to release funding for the prototype to be built. As per Saurav Jha and Sridhar from Delhi Defence Review, even to date that funding has not been released properly.

The Rafale fleet is simply unsustainable at 36. There will be attrition eventually and that will mean even the 2 squadrons will dip below their 18 units each with no attrition reserves at all.

Even the base infrastructure has been set up at Hasimara and Ambala to cater to more than 4 squadrons of Rafales. So theoretically the IAF could just buy 36 more Rafales and not have to spend much more on ground infra, which was already paid for as part of the first deal for 36 Rafales.

Similar thing happened in the 1980s at AFS Maharajpur, Gwalior, which is the home base of all Mirage-2000 squadrons. It was originally supposed to house more than 100 Mirage-2000s and infra was created accordingly. HAL was the only aerospace company outside of Dassault that was certified to do MRO activities on the Mirage-2000, something which was paid for out of the contract via training and infra set up at HAL in Bangalore.

At the very least, the IAF will get at least 36 more. But I fervently hope that is not the number they go for. They must cancel MRFA and go in for at least 74.

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

While Tejas is the future for the IAF and Indian aerospace with the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA variants all being in some or the other way linked to the Tejas program, I do agree with you that the timelines for these programs are very aggressive and there are likely to be slippages.

Given how things work at HAL, they typically need to go to the GoI or MoD for funding and approvals ALL the time and the process is not smooth. HAL isn't a private company like Dassault where top management can take a call and approvals, funding, etc flow from that. HAL is a public sector company and that shows in how much time it takes to get things going. Just a case in point - the time taken to go from Tejas Mk2 CDR approval to CCS approval that is supposed to release funding for the prototype to be built. As per Saurav Jha and Sridhar from Delhi Defence Review, even to date that funding has not been released properly.

The Rafale fleet is simply unsustainable at 36. There will be attrition eventually and that will mean even the 2 squadrons will dip below their 18 units each with no attrition reserves at all.

Even the base infrastructure has been set up at Hasimara and Ambala to cater to more than 4 squadrons of Rafales. So theoretically the IAF could just buy 36 more Rafales and not have to spend much more on ground infra, which was already paid for as part of the first deal for 36 Rafales.

Similar thing happened in the 1980s at AFS Maharajpur, Gwalior, which is the home base of all Mirage-2000 squadrons. It was originally supposed to house more than 100 Mirage-2000s and infra was created accordingly. HAL was the only aerospace company outside of Dassault that was certified to do MRO activities on the Mirage-2000, something which was paid for out of the contract via training and infra set up at HAL in Bangalore.

At the very least, the IAF will get at least 36 more. But I fervently hope that is not the number they go for. They must cancel MRFA and go in for at least 74.

For deliveries of 74 will go way beyond 2035 if deliveries starts in early 2030 this is also if all goes well and contract is signed at earliest.

Still the same in ball park of delivery period of MK-II

Whichever way you look at it, it conflicts with MK-II

Interesting times we are living in.

Lets see how this unfolds.

 

[BON PLAN]

France also had the easy option of just buying F-16s but instead chose to go the whole hog with Rafale. Later for the engines again France had the option to take it easy by simply buying F404 off the shelf yet they chose to invent the M88. That is a wonderful precedent to follow because great nations think like that.

France is producing its own fighter jets since mid 20th century... Can't compare.

 

[BON PLAN]

it's worthwhile to note Safran operates two joint ventures with GE Aviation: CFM International, and CFM Materials. This is where they get the technology for the alloys for the hot sections which India has been struggling to get.

No. CFM agreement was very clear : hot core study and made by GE alone and cold part by the then SNECMA.
SNECMA, now SAFRAN, studied, developped and produced the single crystal blades alone, with several R&D labs from France.

 

[BON PLAN]

For deliveries of 74 will go way beyond 2035 if deliveries starts in early 2030 this is also if all goes well and contract is signed at earliest.

Still the same in ball park of delivery period of MK-II

Whichever way you look at it, it conflicts with MK-II

Interesting times we are living in.

Lets see how this unfolds.

a Rafale agreement inked in 2023 will see delivery in 2026/27.

Tejas mk2 is better than mk1, bur remains a light fighter (from a point defense fighter to a light fighter) => Tejas mk2 is not a competitor to Rafale.

 

[Love Charger]

a Rafale agreement inked in 2023 will see delivery in 2026/27.

Tejas mk2 is better than mk1, bur remains a light fighter (from a point defense fighter to a light fighter) => Tejas mk2 is not a competitor to Rafale.

Don't worry, IAF will make the government order more rafales.
It has tasted it, it will settle for nothing less now .

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

a Rafale agreement inked in 2023 will see delivery in 2026/27.

Tejas mk2 is better than mk1, bur remains a light fighter (from a point defense fighter to a light fighter) => Tejas mk2 is not a competitor to Rafale.

No way possible for agreement to be signed in 2023. (Hint Election Year) So Forget it.

You will be lucky if even signed in 2024.

Most likely in 2025 or may be 2026.

If not in 2025 then, the possibility of :

Bye-Bye Rafale



Hehehehehehehehehe

An Fighter in ball park of F-16, Mirage-2K, MIG-29 is a "Point Defense Fighter"

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

Tejas mk2 is better than mk1, bur remains a light fighter (from a point defense fighter to a light fighter) => Tejas mk2 is not a competitor to Rafale.

On a serious Note :

Thats why our IAF (Import-pasand Air Force) is not interested in TEDBF and variant of it ORCA.