LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Vamsi]

Found this old documentary by Discovery Channel about our Tejas

 

[IndianHawk]

can someone give detail on maws and jammer and rwr on tejas mk1 and mk1a

RWR is going to be an evolution of drishti digital rwr.

Maws is being developed for su30mki as a pylon based maws. ( Mk2 will have internal maws) .

Jammer is from elta Israel. Probably 8222.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

It will probably be integrated with a drop tanks so that pylon / hard point is not wasted.

Here is f18 with similar set-up.View attachment 130152
Notice the irst on centre droptank.

Dont aircraft jettison drop tanks on contact with the enemy? Keeping IRST on drop tank will reduce manoeuvrability IG.

 

[IndianHawk]

Dont aircraft jettison drop tanks on contact with the enemy? Keeping IRST on drop tank will reduce manoeuvrability IG.

Once enemy is within ambit of dogfight IRST is anyway useless. There is more monetary lose with irst drop tanks. But chances of it are rare and only one jet may carry it in a party of 3-4 jets.

 

[Whitecollar]

Dont aircraft jettison drop tanks on contact with the enemy? Keeping IRST on drop tank will reduce manoeuvrability IG.

IRST is generally placed on centerline tanks for symmetrical vision. Now it could also be dropped theoratically but it really depends on that particular situation.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Updates on Mk1 and Mk1a

"All 10 aircraft(Final batch FOC) are already ready, there are some systems to be delivered from Israel. If that happens in time, we can deliver all 10,” Mr. Madhavan told The Hindu talking of the hectic calendar HAL has for this year. “By June this year we should start flying the LCA MK-1A configuration. Once flying starts, we have about 20 to 24 months of testing. Once that is done, we will be ready for deliveries as expected.”

 

[Homi J Bhaba]

Updates on Mk1 and Mk1a

"All 10 aircraft(Final batch FOC) are already ready, there are some systems to be delivered from Israel. If that happens in time, we can deliver all 10,” Mr. Madhavan told The Hindu talking of the hectic calendar HAL has for this year. “By June this year we should start flying the LCA MK-1A configuration. Once flying starts, we have about 20 to 24 months of testing. Once that is done, we will be ready for deliveries as expected.”

Only trainers left then?

 

[Narasimh]

Tejas podcast#2. Key points covered:
1. Tejas has had another near miss while flight testing related to Hydraulic fluid leakage.
2. HMDS (DASH) quite capable proved with mutiple R-73 launches against targets incl. maneuvering targets.
3. LGB integrated with Litening is pretty good. zoom in zoom out on target can be done and laser designate it.
4.Nuances of test flying
5. Squadron feedback overall good but seems some limitations due to size is there but majorly good

 

[Super Flanker]

Alright Guys so I have a question:
If in a theoretical scenario the entire of Manufacturing) Assembling/Integration of Tejas is given to TATA than how many Tejas will they Possibly able to churn out in a year? Will it be Faster than HAL?

 

[SimplyIndian]

Alright Guys so I have a question:
If in a theoretical scenario the entire of Manufacturing) Assembling/Integration of Tejas is given to TATA than how many Tejas will they Possibly able to churn out in a year? Will it be Faster than HAL?

It is not about how many per year but total expected order size of LCA and MWF. If GOI promises 100 mk1 and 200 mwf means even at the rate of 30 per year, production line will be busy for 10 yrs. TATA will be interested in such offer.

If order size is 80 , TATA may not even invest in production line whose break even will take 100 aircraft at least.

So basically this is about order size, break even number, cost and margin in each delivery etc..

 

[Super Flanker]

It is not about how much per year but total expected ordee size of LCA and MWF. If GOI promises 100 mk1 and 200 mwf means even at the rate of 30 per year, production line will be busy for 10 yrs.
If order size is 100 then, TATA may not even invest in production line whose break even will take 100 aircraft at least.

So basically this is about order size, break even number, cost and margin in each delivery etc..

Thanks for the Information.

 

[Super Flanker]

It is not about how many per year but total expected order size of LCA and MWF. If GOI promises 100 mk1 and 200 mwf means even at the rate of 30 per year, production line will be busy for 10 yrs. TATA will be interested in such offer.

If order size is 80 , TATA may not even invest in production line whose break even will take 100 aircraft at least.

So basically this is about order size, break even number, cost and margin in each delivery etc..

If such an Order to given to TATA than They will most probably Able to complete this in around 10 years at most. We need to ramp Production rate of Tejas. We should be able to produce Atleast 18+ Tejas Every year. The current speed is slow. We need to Induct every year atleast 1 Squadron of Tejas for which 18-20 Aircraft per year will be able to do the Job Just fine in my opinion. I am expecting That when Tejas MK1a and Tejas MK-2 enter Production than they will have a production speed of atleast 18-20 per year.

 

[SimplyIndian]

If such an Order to given to TATA than They will most probably Able to complete this in around 10 years at most. We need to ramp Production rate of Tejas. We should be able to produce Atleast 18+ Tejas Every year. The current speed is slow. We need to Induct every year atleast 1 Squadron of Tejas for which 18-20 Aircraft per year will be able to do the Job Just fine in my opinion. I am expecting That when Tejas MK1a and Tejas MK-2 enter Production than they will have a production speed of atleast 18-20 per year.

IMO govt should invest in upgrading HAL current lines plus invest in mega dedicated line which should churn 30 ac per year.

ideally we should have dedicated production like for each AC lca, mwf, amca churning out 20 ac in normal scenarios and can be extended to 30 if required if qe want to be dominant power.

USA can churn 300 plus ac in a year normally and war like scenarios they can go up to 500. That's what MIC means.

We are struggling with 20 ac p3r year but want to export sum.

I wish GOI select French for mmrca 100 plus ac ask them to setup a line here to get 20ac rafale per year, use this line in addition to dedicated 3 lines to get 80 to 100 ac per year. We need to serve Navy growing needs as well in future.

That's wishful thinking but much needed foundation.

 

[Super Flanker]

IMO govt should invest in upgrading HAL current lines plus invest in mega dedicated line which should churn 30 ac per year.

ideally we should have dedicated production like for each AC lca, mwf, amca churning out 20 ac in normal scenarios and can be extended to 30 if required if qe want to be dominant power.

USA can churn 300 plus ac in a year normally and war like scenarios they can go up to 500. That's what MIC means.

We are struggling with 20 ac p3r year but want to export sum.

I wish GOI select French for mmrca 100 plus ac ask them to setup a line here to get 20ac rafale per year, use this line in addition to dedicated 3 lines to get 80 to 100 ac per year. We need to serve Navy growing needs as well in future.

That's wishful thinking but much needed foundation.

Yes correct that's what I thought too! Just make one big Facility and produce upto 25+ Tejas every year. Our Aircraft Production rate of Tejas is too slow, we are loosing more Aircrafts than we are Inducting!

Something needs to be seriously done with regards to our Production rate. We are not able to fullfil our own Requirement and we are thinking of Export.

We need to give more and more responsibility of Manufacturing of Components of Tejas to our private sector companies, HAL is slow as a snail.

Private Sector Companies like TATA ,l&T, Mahindra Aerospace should be Given job of it. HAl should be made only the Integrator of the parts and nothing else.

I had read somewhere that if Indian airforce selects F-16 under MMRCA than TATA will be able to make upto 50 F-16s per year in India. Why can't companies like TATA do the same for Tejas ? By making one big Manufacturing center where the Manufacturing of Different components, Integration of Different systems and final Assembling should be done.

 

[MonaLazy]

if Indian airforce selects F-16 under MMRCA than TATA will be able to make upto 50 F-16s per year in India

That possibility seems so remote at this point that it is not even worth exploring. Besides, you are making the mistake of comparing promises with reality. Just head over to any election rally to see your fav neta promise the moon, only to come back 5 years later with a promise to fulfil the same old promises.

In that diagram you shared, I can see VEM, L&T, SIFL & Alpha Tocol- they bring private sector efficiency to the program. HAL is the lead integrator now after hand holding the Indian aero industry. Wonder why Tata does not figure in that list? Because they did not dare to leap (disclosure: not a realme fan)- instead preferring to churn out ready baked products from a foreign OEM with little incentive to share knowledge. Tata may be a good factory with an awesome reputation but can you call it a national aerospace asset? Have they even designed/flown a biplane? A quad copter? At least a paper plane?

Besides from that update @Javelin_Sam shared all 10 FOC are nearly ready, pending some components from Israel. We are surely not pinning this on HAL? Just like on a high traffic narrow road the slowest rickshaw decides the speed of the fastest car- so with any assembly line.

For the +ves they are indulging in some concurrent engineering, and all three assembly lines are now operational which is a major achievement. Will help us do 8+8+4 per year ig.

We will start manufacturing activities parallel with the testing, Mr. Madhavan said on LCA MK-1A schedule.

To ramp up production, HAL has already set up two additional assembly lines. Stating that all three LCA assembly lines are operational now, Mr. Madhavan said the back end of the lines is what they are finishing now including supply of sub-assemblies by vendors.

‘Light Combat Aircraft MK-1A to take flight in June’

A larger aircraft LCA MK-2 to roll out by year end or early 2023, says HAL MD

www.thehindu.com

How Concurrency In Building The F-35 Fighter Has Proven To Be A Big Plus

Critics complain about the cost of overlapping development and production of the F-35 fighter, but the cost is modest and the operational benefits are huge.

www.forbes.com

 

[Super Flanker]

That possibility seems so remote at this point that it is not even worth exploring. Besides, you are making the mistake of comparing promises with reality. Just head over to any election rally to see your fav neta promise the moon, only to come back 5 years later with a promise to fulfil the same old promises.

In that diagram you shared, I can see VEM, L&T, SIFL & Alpha Tocol- they bring private sector efficiency to the program. HAL is the lead integrator now after hand holding the Indian aero industry. Wonder why Tata does not figure in that list? Because they did not dare to leap (disclosure: not a realme fan)- instead preferring to churn out ready baked products from a foreign OEM with little incentive to share knowledge. Tata may be a good factory with an awesome reputation but can you call it a national aerospace asset? Have they even designed/flown a biplane? A quad copter? At least a paper plane?

Besides from that update @Javelin_Sam shared all 10 FOC are nearly ready, pending some components from Israel. We are surely not pinning this on HAL? Just like on a high traffic narrow road the slowest rickshaw decides the speed of the fastest car- so with any assembly line.

For the +ves they are indulging in some concurrent engineering, and all three assembly lines are now operational which is a major achievement. Will help us do 8+4+4 per year ig.

‘Light Combat Aircraft MK-1A to take flight in June’

A larger aircraft LCA MK-2 to roll out by year end or early 2023, says HAL MD

www.thehindu.com

How Concurrency In Building The F-35 Fighter Has Proven To Be A Big Plus

Critics complain about the cost of overlapping development and production of the F-35 fighter, but the cost is modest and the operational benefits are huge.

www.forbes.com

I agree with you.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

I agree with you.

All the members who here clamours for 20, 30 and even 100 Tejas every year like LM churning out F 35s doesn't even get the basis of factory production and supply chain naunces. LM is sitting on a 1500 plus F-35 orders. What is the order book of Tejas? 83 mk1as. When will HAL complete the delivery of 83 mk1a? Simple answer: If the Tejas MK2 after clearing all trials get orders for production commencing 2028,(mk1a configuration needs around 3 years for tests. Then one can expect atleast 5 years for a configuration jump including the complexities of canards, stretched fuselage, new center of gravity, larger wing area, increased payload by 3000 KG and new Radars and sensors). HAL has to stretch the production of Mk1a till then. That will be around 18 mk1a per year from 2024-2028. Trainers will be produced before that in 2022-2024. It's not possible to produce 25 Tejas per year and shut the ecosystem for 1 or 2 years till the commencement of production of next aircraft. And now HAL is just the final assembler. The manufacturing of the components has been transferred to pvt sector. HAL will rollout in the speed with which the Tier 2 and Tier 3 suppliers supply components. The same nuances of order number and production discussed above will apply to them also

 

[Roland55]

Updates on Mk1 and Mk1a

"All 10 aircraft(Final batch FOC) are already ready, there are some systems to be delivered from Israel. If that happens in time, we can deliver all 10,” Mr. Madhavan told The Hindu talking of the hectic calendar HAL has for this year. “By June this year we should start flying the LCA MK-1A configuration. Once flying starts, we have about 20 to 24 months of testing. Once that is done, we will be ready for deliveries as expected.”

10?? im confused, weren't we discussing that they were 8 or 9 remaining examples?

EDIT: Still, those are amazing news, can't wait to see the ceremony with all new aircraft!

 

[Super Flanker]

All the members who here clamours for 20, 30 and even 100 Tejas every year like LM churning out F 35s doesn't even get the basis of factory production and supply chain naunces. LM is sitting on a 1500 plus F-35 orders. What is the order book of Tejas? 83 mk1as. When will HAL complete the delivery of 83 mk1a? Simple answer: If the Tejas MK2 after clearing all trials get orders for production commencing 2028,(mk1a configuration needs around 3 years for tests. Then one can expect atleast 5 years for a configuration jump including the complexities of canards, stretched fuselage, new center of gravity, larger wing area, increased payload by 3000 KG and new Radars and sensors). HAL has to stretch the production of Mk1a till then. That will be around 18 mk1a per year from 2024-2028. Trainers will be produced before that in 2022-2024. It's not possible to produce 25 Tejas per year and shut the ecosystem for 1 or 2 years till the commencement of production of next aircraft. And now HAL is just the final assembler. The manufacturing of the components has been transferred to pvt sector. HAL will rollout in the speed with which the Tier 2 and Tier 3 suppliers supply components. The same nuances of order number and production discussed above will apply to them also

I agree with what you have written.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

LCA Tejas can get big orders from east Asian countries if HAL delivers it on time and integrates meteor and AIM120 missiles
Or DRDO comes with its own missiles which is cheap and has range and performance similar to meteor and AIM-120