LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[lcafanboy]

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Is it something you want to believe or do you have some source backing your claim that IAF wants Mk. 2 and asked for it.

If they didn't want it, it wouldn't get funding. Also, whether iaf wants or not, Tejas mk2 is going to be inducted to iaf. Govt has major say in these things and can shove Tejas down iaf's throat if they want to.

 

[Whitecollar]

IAF is killing our most experienced pilots by pushing them to fly Mig 21s on regular intervals. Why can't they go for immediate ordering of 48-54 FOC Tejas and increasing 83 MK1A's orders is beyond me...ofcourse Import lobby heavily investing in Gernails but it's a petty shame Rafale obsessed IAF isn't doing anything for replacement of Mig 21s.


https://idrw.org/indecisive-iaf-is-killing-some-of-the-best-aviators-in-the-country/

 

[arnab]

Exactly, MK2 will come and IAF will take it.
Especially if BJP is in power another Parikkar will happen which will shove it down their throat if they don't take willfully.

They don't need to shove down the throat...it's a necessity now. Iaf ordered 40 lca mk1 before even it was granted IOC...but thebtejas mk2 won't hv any prototypes but direct production variants. So far they cud claim shortcomings in tejas...they can't do so with mk2. Their aim of filling up squads with imported fighters will hold no water if we are making a fighter better than gripen E. And all with indian weapons and sensors on board costing far less.
Also, the launch and maiden flight of AMCA will be closely running parallel to mk2. It will be hard for them to justify why they are looking forward to one indian jet but ignoring the other. Also their argument against single engine might not hold water given Pakistan inducting j10C. Also they are cheaper to operate.
The real angle they can really play is that ot slower deliveries. This is where hal needs to up their game with atleast 24 mk2 annually will seal the deal.
Mk2 will be ready by 2027...orders sjud be given much before that. Mk1a production will continue till 2028-29, this is where Manu su30 lines will be free, and mk2 can be produced there itself.

This way we can wrap up the production of mk2 tejas by 2034 around when amca mk2 will come...and produce orca if we want to.

As is quite clear by now...even if iaf orders more rafales...deliveries will take time given their order book...any new competition will delay process by 3 yrs, deliveries will take 2 to 3 more yrs from that.
So unless iaf wants to sit idle sucking their thumbs for ten yrs...they will have to go for tejas mk2. Because the enemy is not sitting idle in the meantime.

 

[Tshering22]

"Army grabbing the lion's share of the budget is a colonial-era concept. " <-- So it has got nothing to do with fact that we share long borders with dangerous neighbors & all Wars post-colonialism primarily started as land offensives? Or that America and Europe tried to dominate geographies where they had no territorial boundaries but were far-off lands with oceans in between hence the Navy? Or that Israel can not win a ground offensive against its neighbors as it does not have as many humans to use as cannon fodder as its neighbors/arch enemies hence it HAS TO have overwhelming air superiority?

Effects(army getting lions share of budgets) are easy to observe, causes we often make up as we go along based on the point we are trying to prove.

1. We don't mechanize because of too much focus on manpower. What good are men without sufficient equipment, only to be minced and shredded by enemy shells and bullets?
2. Do we really need cannon fodder? How about we use technology to become cannon fodder? Like unmanned UGV swarms/hordes? This concept of ill-equipped, tin-hat-wearing Indian soldiers running towards their certain death is ridiculous and is not going to win us wars.
3. We need aerial supremacy to soften up an enemy that is focusing on non-contact warfare and is much bigger than we are. Unless we are able to flatten their air and missile defenses, take out their forward supply depots and channels, cause significant damage to their secondary bases, they will not stop.

The point is, technology is going to rule the future. And we are heading into the future. Having these guys running towards an artillery/automated machine gun turret nest OR asking them to navigate a field full of smart mines, is suicidal and foolish.

 

[Kharavela]

1. We don't mechanize because of too much focus on manpower. What good are men without sufficient equipment, only to be minced and shredded by enemy shells and bullets?
2. Do we really need cannon fodder? How about we use technology to become cannon fodder? Like unmanned UGV swarms/hordes? This concept of ill-equipped, tin-hat-wearing Indian soldiers running towards their certain death is ridiculous and is not going to win us wars.
3. We need aerial supremacy to soften up an enemy that is focusing on non-contact warfare and is much bigger than we are. Unless we are able to flatten their air and missile defenses, take out their forward supply depots and channels, cause significant damage to their secondary bases, they will not stop.

The point is, technology is going to rule the future. And we are heading into the future. Having these guys running towards an artillery/automated machine gun turret nest OR asking them to navigate a field full of smart mines, is suicidal and foolish.

100% Agreed. As on today, no army can afford to use humans as cannon fodder and has to adopt technology.
Lifetime cost of Unmanned Systems falling sharply vis-a-vis human soldiers. The unmanned systems are expendable and therefore can used for extremely dangerous missions.

 

[SUPERPOWER]

1. We don't mechanize because of too much focus on manpower. What good are men without sufficient equipment, only to be minced and shredded by enemy shells and bullets?
2. Do we really need cannon fodder? How about we use technology to become cannon fodder? Like unmanned UGV swarms/hordes? This concept of ill-equipped, tin-hat-wearing Indian soldiers running towards their certain death is ridiculous and is not going to win us wars.
3. We need aerial supremacy to soften up an enemy that is focusing on non-contact warfare and is much bigger than we are. Unless we are able to flatten their air and missile defenses, take out their forward supply depots and channels, cause significant damage to their secondary bases, they will not stop.

The point is, technology is going to rule the future. And we are heading into the future. Having these guys running towards an artillery/automated machine gun turret nest OR asking them to navigate a field full of smart mines, is suicidal and foolish.

View attachment 127622
View attachment 127623

Poor country ..poor army....

 

[Dark Sorrow]

If they didn't want it, it wouldn't get funding. Also, whether iaf wants or not, Tejas mk2 is going to be inducted to iaf. Govt has major say in these things and can shove Tejas down iaf's throat if they want to.

Mk. 2 is yet to officially receive funding.

 

[Covfefe]

Mk. 2 is yet to officially receive funding.

Even AMCA or Kaveri for that matter. AMCA proposal has been sent to CCS

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Even AMCA or Kaveri for that matter. AMCA proposal has been sent to CCS

AMCA prototype is yet to receive funding however development and testing of various subsystem and avionics for AMCA have received funding.
What is happening they development for AMCA project are also being modded for proposed Tejas Mk. 2

 

[IndianHawk]

Mk. 2 is yet to officially receive funding.

Didn't it received funding during original mk2 program . Later only project got changed to MWF. But official project is same and funded??

If they haven't received funding how they releasing so many tenders and RFPs.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Didn't it received funding during original mk2 program . Later only project got changed to MWF. But official project is same and funded??

If they haven't received funding how they releasing so many tenders and RFPs.

Most of the tenders are released on HAL's internal funding or as testing prototypes under AMCA's funding.

 

[IndianHawk]

Most of the tenders are released on HAL's internal funding or as testing prototypes under AMCA's funding.

Mk2 jig assembly tender was released back in February 2019. It was quite a big tender to rely on internal funding as it was demanding jig assembly with capacity to produce 24 jets annually.
Here is one such tender for rear fuselage.

Anyway they can't use AMCA funding to build mk2 prototype. ( CAG audit will eat them alive ). And we know that mk2 prototypes are being built.

So funding for prototypes and jig assembly must be done already!!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Mk2 jig assembly tender was released back in February 2019. It was quite a big tender to rely on internal funding as it was demanding jig assembly with capacity to produce 24 jets annually.
Here is one such tender for rear fuselage.

Anyway they can't use AMCA funding to build mk2 prototype. ( CAG audit will eat them alive ). And we know that mk2 prototypes are being built.

So funding for prototypes and jig assembly must be done already!!

It must be paid for using HAL's internal funds. Their is no information otherwise that it was paid by DRDO or MoD or IAF. CAG would have reported such payment in audit.

I said AMCA's funds are being used means they are developing for AMCA and branching out a secondary development (similar or downgraded version that is specifically modded for Tejas Mk. 2). This way they don't explicitly mention Tejas Mk. 2 in budget. All R&Ds are capable of doing the same. You develop a highest grade/capable technology or product and then water-down it at no or minimum cost for different projects.

 

[IndianHawk]

It must be paid for using HAL's internal funds. Their is no information otherwise that it was paid by DRDO or MoD or IAF. CAG would have reported such payment in audit.

I said AMCA's funds are being used means they are developing for AMCA and branching out a secondary development (similar or downgraded version that is specifically modded for Tejas Mk. 2). This way they don't explicitly mention Tejas Mk. 2 in budget. All R&Ds are capable of doing the same. You develop a highest grade/capable technology or product and then water-down it at no or minimum cost for different projects.

Well you made me dig .

Here is the proof of funding. Lca fsed 3 also known as mk2 program.
Souce 2015-16 ADA annual report.
I can't upload it since it's too large for server.
But here is Wikipedia link for you to download.

HAL Tejas Mk2 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The FSED phase 3 consisted of design, development and manufacturing of two prototypes.[10] Initially planned as an upsized Tejas, with a 0.5 m fuselage plug to accommodate more fuel and a more powerful engine, the Tejas Mark 2 design has evolved over years into a completely new medium weight class fighter.[10]

From annual report.

LCA FSED PHASE - 3 (MKII)
INFRASTRUCTURE 198,243,030 90,995,208
AIRCRAFT DESIGH & INTEGRATION 39,894,828 209,762,961
AIRCRAFT TOOLING, MTRL & FABRICATION (1,502,020) 4,075,718
PROTOTYPE - AIRCRAFT MATERIAL 24,052,504 (30,779,346)
PROTOTYPE - AIRCRAFT FABRICATION 11,988,267 4,455,572
GENERAL SYSTEMS 803,636,629 2,185,138,530
FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEMS 51,463,456 30,098,562
AVIONICS - COCKPIT DISPLAY & CONTROL PANEL 8,389,611 2,648,299
AVIONICS - MULTI MODERADAR 9,378,982 52,256,288
AVIONICS - ELECTRICAL SYSTEM 7,887,528 -
GROUNDTESTING 27,938,681 28,804,875
FLIGHT TESTING - 378,409
TECH. DEVELOPMENT 5,989,517 2,344,012
PRODUCT SUPPORT 371,964 -
HALs PROFIT 2,334,475 17,676,409
1,190,067,452 2,597,855,497

So we can laid it to rest . Money for mk2/MWF development is sactioned .

 

[Javelin_Sam]

IAF is killing our most experienced pilots by pushing them to fly Mig 21s on regular intervals. Why can't they go for immediate ordering of 48-54 FOC Tejas and increasing 83 MK1A's orders is beyond me...ofcourse Import lobby heavily investing in Gernails but it's a petty shame Rafale obsessed IAF isn't doing anything for replacement of Mig 21s.


https://idrw.org/indecisive-iaf-is-killing-some-of-the-best-aviators-in-the-country/

Too late. Nothing can be done with Mig-21s in active service currently. They will fly till their planned retirement period(Till 2025). Even if IAF orders additional Tejas fighters now(Its already Jan 2022), they will reach IAF's hands only by 2024.( Order long lead time comoponents -short lead time components, manufacturing begins at Tier 1 and 2 suppliers-delivery to HAL-HAL assembles at the rate they are receiving components-taxi-flight tets-IAF acceptance tests-delivery). The elephant in the room is that we didn't order additional Tejas after 40 IOC plus FOC till 2015. After that Parikkar started negotiations with IAF and ADA,HAL for 83 Tejas in mk1a configuration.The 2005-2015 is a lost decade running after mmrca while the MiG 21s were ageing very fast. Neither did mmrca succeed is one another big ***. No new aircrafts except the Su30s from Nashik were ordered in this period

 

[arnab]

OKAY...i want to put to rest some Qs of mine, which might be old ones...
1. why does HAL website show LCA radius of action to be 300km while gripen-C with equal internal fuel shows 800 km? if false, whats the approx combat radius then for LCA?
2. is Tejas' max G tolerance really 9G?
3. is tejas mk1 as capable in dogfight as the mirage 2000s, J10Cs and F16s?
4. can the IOC fighters be upgraded to FOC config?
5. lastly, how many FOC fighters are left to be inducted?

 

[THESIS THORON]

is Tejas' max G tolerance really 9G?

imo it is with human inside it.

 

[samsaptaka]

I agree with what you have Just written. I just want to see Astra Be Fired from Tejas , that's all that I wish to happen. It will be so good for us because Tejas will have Very Good BVR capability and it will be Indigenous in origin. I am hoping that gradually as Time passes ,The Weopons which will be carried by Tejas will be Indigenised. I want to see Indigenous BVR capability with Astra on Tejas. I want to see Indigenous Bombs like SAAW ,and other bombs in The Aircraft be indian. It will make me feel proud. I love Tejas because it has a Special Place In my heart that's why!

Astra Mk1 Integration with Tejas Nears Completion, Both Israeli FCR to be Enabled - ELE Times

Indian state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) had confirmed in the past that Indigenous Astra Mk1 beyond visual range air

www.eletimes.com

.
Anyways, there is a possibility that Astra has been already Integrated with Tejas and we don't just know about it. Such things are Mostly not made public except after a Few months. Like we saw with DRDO swift Testbed in which the video of Taxing Trials of Swift was shown Recently buy the Actual reality is that the Trials had taken Place many months back but the Footage has been now Itself. Same could be the Case with Astra and our other Crucial Defence Projects. Anyways let's hope for the best.

DRDO's stealth attack UAV back in focus as footage of demonstrator emerges

The existence of a UCAV project was first revealed over a decade ago

www.theweek.in

Good day mate !

Any update on when Astra will be actually test fired from Tejas? The above article says 'few' days in July 2021 ! Its now December ! The official who gave that figure must be fired ! There is absolutely no time concept in our country. A 'few' can be 1 month or 1 year or a decade also ! If the official didn't know when, he should just have told 'we are close to test firing it' etc... he should not say 'a few days/weeks' whatever. Completely unprofessional babus !

Mk1A will take to the sky by 01/03/2022.
- HAL Chairman


Less than 75 days to go!

Are you putting the date in DD/MM/YYYY format or MM/DD/YYYY like the yankies ?

Is it not a top most priority that should be addressed by top leaders under a national mission?

He did not answer this crucial question ? No one amongst our top leaders even have an idea as to how important this is ! And no one is making them aware , neither HAL babus, nor MoD retards !

hass ki katai tak me commission chalta hai aur khoob chalta hai..20 majdoor theke par dikhte hain lekin asal me 10 bhi nahi hote... kis kis ko roiye... har jagah ek hi raag hai commission aur sirf commission. Corruption ki machine itni achchhi chalti hai ki kya bataya jaaye... agar usme koi achchha purza aa jayega to machine usko khud hi tod kar ya nikaal kar fenk degi. saare corrupt ek dusre ki madad karte hain aur bacha le jaate hain, lekin ek imaandar dusre imaandar ki madad nahi karta, wo apne liye imaandar maankar hi khush ho jaata hai..

Dude, for God's sake either type english in english script or hindi in devanagari, do not write in this bastard language !

If something doesn't meet their requirement their requirement they have problem rejecting it.

So IAF does not have a requirement to replace its aging Mig-21's ? And are perfectly A-Ok with young pilots being killed ? Shame on them ! (If this is so)

IAF is killing our most experienced pilots by pushing them to fly Mig 21s on regular intervals. Why can't they go for immediate ordering of 48-54 FOC Tejas and increasing 83 MK1A's orders is beyond me...ofcourse Import lobby heavily investing in Gernails but it's a petty shame Rafale obsessed IAF isn't doing anything for replacement of Mig 21s.

https://idrw.org/indecisive-iaf-is-killing-some-of-the-best-aviators-in-the-country/

Absolutely agree ! The top IAF brass will have the blood of our young flying officers, if they do not go for LCA Mk2 but instead delay procuring it by going for some foriegn toy !

Ideally, we need to be a naval power but due to short-term thinking, our $$ just goes into appeasing the green generals. However, unless we start modernizing our air force on a war footing, the mentality will persist that the Army should get the bulk of the budget.

And even with this mammoth budget, what does our army buy - fancy tanks upon tanks, when a fraction of that money should actually be spent to upgrade our SF ![/QUOTE]

 

[MirageBlue]

imo it is with human inside it.

Actually the Tejas Mk1 is rated to +8Gs as far as the FCS is concerned. So, with a pilot inside it, it will not be able to go into any maneuver that will mean that the +8G limit will be crossed. the FBW FCS will simply not permit that.

But the structure itself is rated to withstand upto 13Gs.