LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Dark Sorrow]

Guys, mk2 is coming no matter what you think.
We cannot move to AMCA without MK2

This is something want to believe .
AMCA is an independent project and is moving quite ahead without dependence Tejas Mk. 2
I don't get the logic that AMCA cannot move without MK2.

 

[IndianHawk]

This is something want to believe .
AMCA is an independent project and is moving quite ahead without dependence Tejas Mk. 2
I don't get the logic that AMCA cannot move without MK2.

Lots of internet components for amca are being incorporated in mk2 itself. Like irst , dcmaws , digital rwr and laser warning and many more . Also some degree of sensor fusion is to be there in mk2 with panaromic cockpit .

You are right if there was no mk2 those systems will still be developed for AMCA and tested probably in su30mki. But mk2 offers far better integration testing regime in tandem with totally indian design and indian equipments. This also cuts short development time since mk2 has a very tight schedule and it streamlines budget as all these development costs are shared between multiple programs ( mk1a , mk2 , su30mki upgrade , amca and probably even tedbf).

Mirage 2000 was used to test Rafale nosecone and advanced radar . Similarly lca mk2 can be used to test various parts of AMCA even before AMCA prototypes are ready or available (due to limited number of prototypes) .

So a well made mk2 means half the job done for amca as far as internal components are concerned.

 

[Alfalfa]

Couple of quick questions -

1) Outside fanboys like us speculating, is there an idea on how many Mk2 would likely be ordered - I know the math around replacing Mig29, M2000 and Jaguars works out to about 10 squadrons of 200 ac but is there any actual IAF commentary around demand for Mk2?

2) While the IAF's faith in single engine jets is heartening - what does it mean for the ORCA etc.? Will it see orders?

 

[Covfefe]

Couple of quick questions -

1) Outside fanboys like us speculating, is there an idea on how many Mk2 would likely be ordered - I know the math around replacing Mig29, M2000 and Jaguars works out to about 10 squadrons of 200 ac but is there any actual IAF commentary around demand for Mk2?

2) While the IAF's faith in single engine jets is heartening - what does it mean for the ORCA etc.? Will it see orders?

ORCA could've been a proposal but it's kind of dead now. Only LCA Mk2 is talked about and then AMCA. LCA Mk2 anywhere between 130-200 depending upon 1) MRFA/MMRCA orders 2) progress in AMCA 3) actual performance of Mk2

 

[Super Flanker]

Forgive me if these questions have already been covered in past but I have a couple of questions to which I want the Answer to:
1)What is the Current speed of Production of Tejas?
•
2)What will be the Production speed of Tejas Mk1a?
•
3)Are Tejas deployed near the borders with Pakistan?
•
4)If Tejas are deployed against Pakistan ,What type of Weopons will they have to fight against Pakistan in a skirmish like 27th February?

 

[Super Flanker]

Guys, mk2 is coming no matter what you think.
We cannot move to AMCA without MK2

MK2 was going nowhere. Tejas Mk2 was always a Necessity for the Indian Airforce no matter What people think about it.

It will be very much important and it will help replace Aircrafts like Mirage 2000, MIG-29, Jaguars etc.

Already prototype construction of the First Prototype has already started reportedly so Tejas Mk2 will be going nowhere.

Also Tejas mk 2 will be very important in the Development of AMCA. It's here and it's here to stay

 

[FalconZero]

Forgive me if these questions have already been covered in past but I have a couple of questions to which I want the Answer to:
1)What is the Current speed of Production of Tejas?
•
2)What will be the Production speed of Tejas Mk1a?
•
3)Are Tejas deployed near the borders with Pakistan?
•
4)If Tejas are deployed against Pakistan ,What type of Weopons will they have to fight against Pakistan in a skirmish like 27th February?View attachment 127336

>1)What is the Current speed of Production of Tejas?
Around 8 (Atleast between 2020 to end of 2021 and mid of 2022 projections)


>2)What will be the Production speed of Tejas Mk1a?
They are aiming at around 16tejas mk1a

Madhavan, chairman and managing director of the HAL, said the production rate of Tejas is being augmented from eight to 16 aircraft per year through creation of new infrastructure in Bengaluru.

HAL chief welcomes Tejas approval; says will boost India's aerospace sector

Welcoming govt's approval to the Tejas deal, HAL chief R Madhavan described it as a major shot in the arm towards India's goal of achieving self-reliance in the aerospace and aeronautics sector

www.business-standard.com

.


>3)Are Tejas deployed near the borders with Pakistan?
There were reports of Tejas being deployed in forward bases, https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...yed-on-western-front/articleshow/77610650.cms
But iirc we did have discussion about in on this very thread, not sure about the final conclusion but afaik both Flying Bullets and Flying Daggers are currently at Sulur, probably after all the FOC variants are delivered then Tejas will finally be made available at forward bases.
This is what i recall.

>4)If Tejas are deployed against Pakistan ,What type of Weopons will they have to fight against Pakistan in a skirmish like 27th February?
?? You can make the conjecture on the usage of their top of the line weapons, AIM 120C, PL12/15 so on. but that's it, you want to go into details look at their brochures, deployment at frontline bases so on...

 

[Super Flanker]

>1)What is the Current speed of Production of Tejas?
Around 8 (Atleast between 2020 to end of 2021 and mid of 2022 projections)


>2)What will be the Production speed of Tejas Mk1a?
They are aiming at around 16tejas mk1a

HAL chief welcomes Tejas approval; says will boost India's aerospace sector

Welcoming govt's approval to the Tejas deal, HAL chief R Madhavan described it as a major shot in the arm towards India's goal of achieving self-reliance in the aerospace and aeronautics sector

www.business-standard.com

.


>3)Are Tejas deployed near the borders with Pakistan?
There were reports of Tejas being deployed in forward bases, https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...yed-on-western-front/articleshow/77610650.cms
But iirc we did have discussion about in on this very thread, not sure about the final conclusion but afaik both Flying Bullets and Flying Daggers are currently at Sulur, probably after all the FOC variants are delivered then Tejas will finally be made available at forward bases.
This is what i recall.

>4)If Tejas are deployed against Pakistan ,What type of Weopons will they have to fight against Pakistan in a skirmish like 27th February?
?? You can make the conjecture on the usage of their top of the line weapons, AIM 120C, PL12/15 so on. but that's it, you want to go into details look at their brochures, deployment at frontline bases so on...

In my opinion, we should increase or Ramp up the Production speed to atleast a maximum of 20-24 at most.

In my opinion ,We need more Tejas, we are losing more Aircrafts than we are Inducting.

To be honest, the Indian airforce is in dire need of Squadron Strength to fight a Potential two front war against both china and Pakistan.

Not possible to reach 42 fighter squadrons in next 10-15 years: IAF chief

‘China building airfields in high altitude but they have huge penalty of high altitude’

www.thehindu.com

IAF to get 35 fighter squadrons in next 10 years, but needs 42: Air chief

The IAF Chief said India will start getting its first Russian-made advance air defence system S-400 within this year

www.deccanchronicle.com

Tejas will be enough to fight against Pakistan, We should station Both the Squadrons of Tejas
(Flying Bullets and Flying Daggers) near the border with Pakistan Specifically.

Dassault Rafale is needed Specifically to counter China in my opinion.

 

[Love Charger]

In my opinion, we should increase or Ramp up the Production speed to atleast a maximum of 20-24 at most.

In my opinion ,We need more Tejas, we are losing more Aircrafts than we are Inducting.

To be honest, the Indian airforce is in dire need of Squadron Strength to fight a Potential two front war against both china and Pakistan.

Not possible to reach 42 fighter squadrons in next 10-15 years: IAF chief

‘China building airfields in high altitude but they have huge penalty of high altitude’

www.thehindu.com

IAF to get 35 fighter squadrons in next 10 years, but needs 42: Air chief

The IAF Chief said India will start getting its first Russian-made advance air defence system S-400 within this year

www.deccanchronicle.com

Tejas will be enough to fight against Pakistan, We should station Both the Squadrons of Tejas
(Flying Bullets and Flying Daggers) near the border with Pakistan Specifically.View attachment 127348
Dassault Rafale is needed Specifically to counter China in my opinion.
View attachment 127347

Bro let me give you a pro tip
Always try to make diagrams in the answers you write and label it properly with pencil.
And try to use blue ball point pen only

 

[FalconZero]

In my opinion, we should increase or Ramp up the Production speed to atleast a maximum of 20-24 at most.

In my opinion ,We need more Tejas, we are losing more Aircrafts than we are Inducting.

To be honest, the Indian airforce is in dire need of Squadron Strength to fight a Potential two front war against both china and Pakistan.

Not possible to reach 42 fighter squadrons in next 10-15 years: IAF chief

‘China building airfields in high altitude but they have huge penalty of high altitude’

www.thehindu.com

IAF to get 35 fighter squadrons in next 10 years, but needs 42: Air chief

The IAF Chief said India will start getting its first Russian-made advance air defence system S-400 within this year

www.deccanchronicle.com

Tejas will be enough to fight against Pakistan, We should station Both the Squadrons of Tejas
(Flying Bullets and Flying Daggers) near the border with Pakistan Specifically.View attachment 127348
Dassault Rafale is needed Specifically to counter China in my opinion.
View attachment 127347

Yes, hence the deal of Mk1a, M(eme)MRCA 2.0 and possibly MWF(tejas mk2). People have been seething about it before likes of us were even born, i am not joking here btw. So yeah...

 

[Super Flanker]

Bro let me give you a pro tip
Always try to make diagrams in the answers you write and label it properly with pencil.

Pro tip? Seriously ! Bruh lol, no need I am good.
No problem, I don't need to make any diagrams with pencils and what not and neither do any kind of Labelling anything.

 

[Love Charger]

Pro tip? Seriously ! Bruh lol, no need I am good.
No problem, I don't need to make any diagrams with pencils and what not and neither do any kind of Labelling anything.

Absolutely , you are good man you are a gem to have here .

 

[Super Flanker]

Absolutely , you are good man you are a gem.

Even though I didn't understand a word you were trying to say but regardless of that I am just an ordinary guy and nothing else.

Btw thank you very much for the Compliments @Maharaj skandgupta

 

[vidhwanshak]

Pro tip? Seriously ! Bruh lol, no need I am good.
No problem, I don't need to make any diagrams with pencils and what not and neither do any kind of Labelling anything.

You use "in my opinion" in almost every line.
Avoid it.
--Go like this
In my opinion:
a.
b.
c.
d.
Not like :
In my opinion, a.
In my opinion, b.
In my opinion, c.

 

[Super Flanker]

You use "in my opinion" in almost every line.
Avoid it.
--Go like this
In my opinion:
a.
b.
c.
d.
Not like :
In my opinion, a.
In my opinion, b.
In my opinion, c.

Yes I know, I have got a habit of writing it repeatedly in so many of Posts, Gotta shrug it off over time I guess. Hope you got that. Have a nice day ahead!

 

[Vaibhavseafarer]

Guys, mk2 is coming no matter what you think.
We cannot move to AMCA without MK2

Exactly, MK2 will come and IAF will take it.
Especially if BJP is in power another Parikkar will happen which will shove it down their throat if they don't take willfully.

 

[Tshering22]

Gentlemen, I think much of our military's collective woes come from the negative perception of each other. While dirty politics exist in all forces, in our case it is particularly strong. The Army, Navy, and IAF are almost always one step away from ripping each others' throats out.

Army grabbing the lion's share of the budget is a colonial-era concept. Mechanization can only happen when the more technical arms of the forces are given higher importance. For example, the Americans and British always emphasize their Navy's might first, followed by the Army. Let's take a more contemporary example; Israel. While the Israeli Army is the manpower arm of the force, their entire strategy is based on their air superiority and Air Force is thus given priority.

This compels the other arms to modernize fast. Ideally, we need to be a naval power but due to short-term thinking, our $$ just goes into appeasing the green generals. However, unless we start modernizing our air force on a war footing, the mentality will persist that the Army should get the bulk of the budget.
There is no way that the government would wake up in March and say, "Mitron, this FY onwards, we will spend 4% of our GDP on defense from the current <2%".

The modernization is further hampered by constant politicking and disagreement between the IAF and the Navy. This needs to stop. There is almost ALWAYS a point where the two services never agree with each other, given the limited resources that we have.

In my personal view, fleet commonality will be the most effective way of directing our limited resources militarily. This can be achieved in 2 ways:

1) All the money for Tejas Mk2 as discussed here gets pushed for TEDBF and TEDBF has 2 versions i.e, IAF and Navy version.

OR

2) The Navy dumps the TEDBF altogether and jumps on the AMCA-Navy variant to ensure economies of scale

(2) is more practical at this point since carrier operation requires twin-engine jets and IAF is literally falling off the skies when it comes to asset modernization. Being the smallest branch among Indian forces, the Navy will need to be pragmatic in resource management. Giving stupid excuses like "not enough payload" even when AMCA will have external optional weapons loading is just not feasible.

Let's see; the Navy wants 50-80 fighter jets for all its carrier options. MiG-29Ks have at the most 15 years tops after which a new replacement is needed, pushing the need for over 110-120 fighter jets distributed among 3 carriers in the next 20 years. Meanwhile, the IAF is already likely to order around 150-180 AMCA for the future as mentioned by other members here to replace the zoo of cold war-era jets that we have.

The combined unconstrained demand for AMCA would stand at 300+ jets, which would allow HAL and the private companies to improve due to economies of scale, making maintenance per jet cheaper as there will be many parts that would be common (except the undercarriage and landing gear, that would be different for the Navy).

 

[dumdumdum]

Gentlemen, I think much of our military's collective woes come from the negative perception of each other. While dirty politics exist in all forces, in our case it is particularly strong. The Army, Navy, and IAF are almost always one step away from ripping each others' throats out.

Army grabbing the lion's share of the budget is a colonial-era concept. Mechanization can only happen when the more technical arms of the forces are given higher importance. For example, the Americans and British always emphasize their Navy's might first, followed by the Army. Let's take a more contemporary example; Israel. While the Israeli Army is the manpower arm of the force, their entire strategy is based on their air superiority and Air Force is thus given priority.

This compels the other arms to modernize fast. Ideally, we need to be a naval power but due to short-term thinking, our $$ just goes into appeasing the green generals. However, unless we start modernizing our air force on a war footing, the mentality will persist that the Army should get the bulk of the budget.
There is no way that the government would wake up in March and say, "Mitron, this FY onwards, we will spend 4% of our GDP on defense from the current <2%".

The modernization is further hampered by constant politicking and disagreement between the IAF and the Navy. This needs to stop. There is almost ALWAYS a point where the two services never agree with each other, given the limited resources that we have.

In my personal view, fleet commonality will be the most effective way of directing our limited resources militarily. This can be achieved in 2 ways:

1) All the money for Tejas Mk2 as discussed here gets pushed for TEDBF and TEDBF has 2 versions i.e, IAF and Navy version.

OR

2) The Navy dumps the TEDBF altogether and jumps on the AMCA-Navy variant to ensure economies of scale

(2) is more practical at this point since carrier operation requires twin-engine jets and IAF is literally falling off the skies when it comes to asset modernization. Being the smallest branch among Indian forces, the Navy will need to be pragmatic in resource management. Giving stupid excuses like "not enough payload" even when AMCA will have external optional weapons loading is just not feasible.

Let's see; the Navy wants 50-80 fighter jets for all its carrier options. MiG-29Ks have at the most 15 years tops after which a new replacement is needed, pushing the need for over 110-120 fighter jets distributed among 3 carriers in the next 20 years. Meanwhile, the IAF is already likely to order around 150-180 AMCA for the future as mentioned by other members here to replace the zoo of cold war-era jets that we have.

The combined unconstrained demand for AMCA would stand at 300+ jets, which would allow HAL and the private companies to improve due to economies of scale, making maintenance per jet cheaper as there will be many parts that would be common (except the undercarriage and landing gear, that would be different for the Navy).

"Army grabbing the lion's share of the budget is a colonial-era concept. " <-- So it has got nothing to do with fact that we share long borders with dangerous neighbors & all Wars post colonialism primarily started as land offensives? Or that America and Europe tried to dominate geographies where they had no territorial boundaries but were far off lands with oceans in between hence the Navy? Or that Israel can not win a ground offensive against its neighbors as it does not have as many humans to use as cannon fodder as its neighbors/arch enemies hence it HAS TO have overwhelming air superiority?

Effects(army getting lions share of budgets) are easy to observe, causes we often make up as we go along based on the point we are trying to prove.

 

[scatterStorm]

How many of you read the tender documents RFI / RFQ etc etc issued by HAL or DRDO etc ?

here is a sample, read it carefully

View attachment 30955

Everything boils down to the agreements signed with the OEM. Nobody is foolish enough to sign agreements without guaranteeing the safeguard of their interests including future ones.

US government can theoretically over rule them even at the cost of financial penalties etc but big question will they be willing to accept the costs in the short or long run ?

Say hypothetically India cuts down on the number of civilian aircrafts from Boeing as a sign of displeasure and replaces them with airbus , Will US rethink then ? Risk billions of dollars for a measly few hundred millions ?

Etc etc lots of ways are there.

The Chinese have used the same technique ie Lure of continued access to their markets to browbeat others to overlook their thievery copying and other illegal activities associated with technology etc very successfully , and hey unlike chinese here we are doing legit work , respecting IPR.

I guess this should pretty much stop the discussion.

I would also like to add another point, foreign sales does include engine as a component too, its not like they won't be getting paid, after all if we are doing the assembling and avionics then we are purchasing them under license to sell to foreign clients.

Plus as geopolitics and strategies goes, as long as they allow to continuously arm Chinese neighbors with US technologies, they are happy.

 

[scatterStorm]

Gentlemen, I think much of our military's collective woes come from the negative perception of each other. While dirty politics exist in all forces, in our case it is particularly strong. The Army, Navy, and IAF are almost always one step away from ripping each others' throats out.

Army grabbing the lion's share of the budget is a colonial-era concept. Mechanization can only happen when the more technical arms of the forces are given higher importance. For example, the Americans and British always emphasize their Navy's might first, followed by the Army. Let's take a more contemporary example; Israel. While the Israeli Army is the manpower arm of the force, their entire strategy is based on their air superiority and Air Force is thus given priority.

This compels the other arms to modernize fast. Ideally, we need to be a naval power but due to short-term thinking, our $$ just goes into appeasing the green generals. However, unless we start modernizing our air force on a war footing, the mentality will persist that the Army should get the bulk of the budget.
There is no way that the government would wake up in March and say, "Mitron, this FY onwards, we will spend 4% of our GDP on defense from the current <2%".

The modernization is further hampered by constant politicking and disagreement between the IAF and the Navy. This needs to stop. There is almost ALWAYS a point where the two services never agree with each other, given the limited resources that we have.

In my personal view, fleet commonality will be the most effective way of directing our limited resources militarily. This can be achieved in 2 ways:

1) All the money for Tejas Mk2 as discussed here gets pushed for TEDBF and TEDBF has 2 versions i.e, IAF and Navy version.

OR

2) The Navy dumps the TEDBF altogether and jumps on the AMCA-Navy variant to ensure economies of scale

(2) is more practical at this point since carrier operation requires twin-engine jets and IAF is literally falling off the skies when it comes to asset modernization. Being the smallest branch among Indian forces, the Navy will need to be pragmatic in resource management. Giving stupid excuses like "not enough payload" even when AMCA will have external optional weapons loading is just not feasible.

Let's see; the Navy wants 50-80 fighter jets for all its carrier options. MiG-29Ks have at the most 15 years tops after which a new replacement is needed, pushing the need for over 110-120 fighter jets distributed among 3 carriers in the next 20 years. Meanwhile, the IAF is already likely to order around 150-180 AMCA for the future as mentioned by other members here to replace the zoo of cold war-era jets that we have.

The combined unconstrained demand for AMCA would stand at 300+ jets, which would allow HAL and the private companies to improve due to economies of scale, making maintenance per jet cheaper as there will be many parts that would be common (except the undercarriage and landing gear, that would be different for the Navy).

Sir, that because

1. British territory is surrounded with water on all four sides, so they would put money to where the power is, that is at the sea.

2. Israel is a small state with backward facing waters so they know the direction that the enemy would hit them first. For long army was the key, but 1967 changed everything for them. Air power dominated because small land area.

3. India on the other hand is a peninsula and also has a significant land mass. For long have been army is still the major key player because the technologies weren't developed at that time and were not meant for fighting at sea. Its taken us almost two decades to bring up our Naval might.

Economies of scale works when you have an industrial complex build around the nation within close proximity. For long have been it has been the case the defense industries were few 20 years ago, private players were non-existent. But now things are rapidly changing. Air power is the dimension that everybody should reckon with, and it will be the key factor for the army to make peace with IAF to understand that where they can't reach the places in NE, Airforce can and will.