LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[sathya]

Another comment from ones a$$, without backing of facts or logic. Tactical missiles are not like ballistic missiles which will be inducted after 3 tests. Each test has to validate some parameters of missile. Out of those 17 flight tests, how many were carried at full range, with ECCM, mid course guidance and RF seeker working? Answer that question and you will understand why Astra is not inducted yet.

Especially cutting edge weapons are bought from Israel.
Any other country will impose so many conditions.

 

[akk]

Uttam will not serve in Mk1a unless it is exported. Current expected orders for Mk1a is 83 and HAL has tender of 83 AESA radars. If they wanted to order radar in small batches, the tender would have been smaller.

Surprising that hal has issued tender for radars, without receiving an order from iaf. Are you sure? Source?

 

[Defcon 1]

Surprising that hal has issued tender for radars, without receiving an order from iaf. Are you sure? Source?

This is one link. You can find many more on the internet. The tender is a common knowledge amd has been discussed on this forum.

https://www.newdelhitimes.com/india...igns-a-deal-with-israel-aerospace-industries/

Btw its good that HAL didn't wait for IAF order otherwise it would have delayed the Mk1A

 

[akk]

This is one link. You can find many more on the internet. The tender is a common knowledge amd has been discussed on this forum.

https://www.newdelhitimes.com/india...igns-a-deal-with-israel-aerospace-industries/

Btw its good that HAL didn't wait for IAF order otherwise it would have delayed the Mk1A

Many thanks. I get an impression that the mk1a order is probably in much advanced stage than we think. Or maybe its an in principle deal only, money to be received only after iaf makes a firm order.
Any updates on iaf order on mk1a? They have been sitting on it for a while?

 

[Defcon 1]

Many thanks. I get an impression that the mk1a order is probably in much advanced stage than we think. Or maybe its an in principle deal only, money to be received only after iaf makes a firm order.
Any updates on iaf order on mk1a? They have been sitting on it for a while?

There was some dispute reported a few months back between IAF and HAL on the aircraft delivery schedule which delayed the order. After that election season set in. Now that we have a new government, Mk1A order is expected to come in 2019.

Anyways there is a in principle approval for the aircraft and HAL has started working on it with their own funds while waiting for IAF to place the order. So delay in order will not translate to delay in delivery of the aircraft.

 

[no smoking]

Tactical missiles are not like ballistic missiles which will be inducted after 3 tests.

Ballistic missile got inducted only after 3 tests? I am not about India, but definitely not in other countries unless it is only a minor improved version.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Ballistic missile got inducted only after 3 tests? I am not about India, but definitely not in other countries unless it is only a minor improved version.

There are plenty of tests during development and the ones mentioned are during user qualification trials. Even Americans test like that. Unless China uses hi-fi simulations and skips testing altogether.

 

[Ranger9]

Privatise Production ...... Give i to L&T , TATA ...........And scrap MMRCA .....Go fast for MK2 instead

 

[Vijyes]

Buddy actual detection range remains secret. Mk1 uses elta 2032 which is very capable as it also went in jaguar and is now on maritime dornier. It is supposed to have 100km+ against fighter aircrafts .

Mk1a will be aesa elta 2052 with claims of upto 150-200 km for fighter size targets.

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LCA MK1A Radar is shitty radar, not even PESA. It doesn't have robust detection and is just a stop gap. MK1A will have UTTAM radar. Elta is not going to get the orders as UTTAM has already been completed and MK1A is 3 years away, thus leaving much room for testing and feedback to perfect UTTAM.

patriots, production rate is too low. Three years taken to deliver 18 SPs. HAL production rate is supposed to be 16 per year now. But no unit has been delivered in April-June quarter.

The order is just 40. How can one produce at high speed rate? The units take 7 month to be assembled and that means the delivery is likely to happen according to the delivery or previous plane and adding 7 months. We won't get planes delivered uniformly over the year. Some quarter may get more planes while some quarter may get no planes

You are wrong.

Mk1 orders of 40 units includes 32 single seat and 8 double seat. Only 16 single seat are delivered.
Mk1A orders of 73 units - 0 delivered so far.

Significant orders have been given. Orders is not an issue.

How will govt order if you cannot deliver????

Wrong. Mk1A has not yet been ordered. Also, IAF has asked to change trainer design and it is now SPORTS trainer plane. So, this is additional problem. Overall, 16 LCA has been delivered and another 16 FIC and 8 SPORTS trainer remain. MK1A is not yet ordered.

So, HAL can't make fast delivery. The workforce needs steady employment and hence one must ensure that any work is divided equally for at least 3 years, optimally for 5 years. Unless the orders grow , it is practically impossible to manufacture the measly 24 number quickly

 

[Vijyes]

Bhai contract has been signed with elta for both 2052 aesa radar and elisar electronic warfare suite.
Uttam once ready may be used in converting mk1 to mk1a standard with desi ew suite.

Last I posted about 2052 . It is already mated with our jaguar also Columbian airforce uses Israeli kfir which is upgrade with elta 2052 and has derby ER mated to it. So elta 2052 + derby ER combo is already operational.

Mk1a will be one of the most advanced planes in Asia.

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Who told you that Israel has got radar contract for MK1A? India issues RFI regularly as it is a means of gauging whether any foreign vendor is interested 8n giving TOT in addition to what India already has. But signing of contract is simply bogus. Mk1A is coming in 2022. Why will contract be signed 4 years in advance? Radars don't need that much manufacturing time or lead time.

UTTAM is already in testing since 2018. No reason to dump it when it is doing well. Testing will not take 5-6 years. It should be over in 2-3 years and ready to be integrated into MK1A

Currently uttam aesa radar r integrated on tejas LSP jet for testing they can clear testing 2/3 years so uttam can be available for 4/5th squadron for tejas mk1a but hal can achieved her target overweight tejas so ??? After

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Is MK1A coming out tomorrow? UTTAM was already in testing sice 2018. By 2020-21 it will be fit to fly. MK1A is coming in 2022. So, where is the problem?

 

[Ranger9]

What is configraion of delivered 16 LCA ? does it have AESA radar ?

 

[Vijyes]

Those western radars are quite big with 1000snds of X band emitters, the one in gripen has over a 1000snd emitters using GaN technology which benefits better gain and low noise, the RBE2 AESA radar is a circular radar with around 1000snd trms, the captor E is very bigbwith 1500trm approx, the apg81 on f35 has a large antenna with approx 1400trm, and so They boost a range, what jf17 will get is a small aperture aesa not as big as the western sized.

There is no GaN AESA radar in any fighter jet as of now. When did these come in Gripen?

About sfdr we also have indegenios seeker as Astra mk1 has test flown indegenios seeker since 2017. I'm not sure with command guidance but since it's a joint project with Russia what we lack can come from Russia.

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Astra is 100% indigenous. So, making sfdr Indigenous is also easy. Only thing here is that it is a jv where India and Russia will both invest resources and talent and both will get full Technology. There will be no dependence on the other. It is full Technology sharing but R&D will be jointly conducted to reduce development time by pooling the talent

 

[Vijyes]

Many stories about elta when selected for jaguar upgrade insisted on order on atleast one more type hence it was assured to follow on LCA. That is the primary reason it beat Thales offering of rbe aesa ( which would probably come with meteor).



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How can anyone insist on extra orders? Unless Israel gace technology transfer, such request should be denied.

Doesn't matter. AESA radars are usually flight tested for 5-10 years before they enter production. Anyways, if there was even a remote possibility of Uttam getting inducted in a short time like 2 years, HAL wouldn't have ordered 83 Elta 2052.

AESA radar is tested for 5-10 years? Did RBE2 AA get tested for that long before going on Rafale? If not, why talk like this? Don't talk on the basis of HAL ordering 83 ELTA radars. Keep the two scenarios separate and then tell me how UTTAM radar which is being tested since 2018 will not be ready by 2022. The tweet if HAL test pilot shows that India can switch to UTTAM radar at will in Mk1A. The 83 radar, even if ordered, could simply be because of technology transfer or for precautionary reasons, not due to certainty regarding unavailability of UTTAM by the production date.

Secondly, it is rather odd that HAL can order 83 radars without orders for MK1A. There is a reason why orders have to be placed. The 3 year period between order and manufacturing is all one needs to procure radar. What was the hurry?

The sources of JANES and other news could be just like SPIKE deal. At the end, it was scrapped. The news spoke as if it was fully ready to be manufactured amd that Indian partner had already been selected etc. But all that turned to be fake news. I am suspecting that this 83 radar order without IAF placing order for MK1A also to be like this SPIKE ATGM deal

 

[Defcon 1]

AESA radar is tested for 5-10 years? Did RBE2 AA get tested for that long before going on Rafale? If not, why talk like this? Don't talk on the basis of HAL ordering 83 ELTA radars. Keep the two scenarios separate and then tell me how UTTAM radar which is being tested since 2018 will not be ready by 2022. The tweet if HAL test pilot shows that India can switch to UTTAM radar at will in Mk1A. The 83 radar, even if ordered, could simply be because of technology transfer or for precautionary reasons, not due to certainty regarding unavailability of UTTAM by the production date.

Secondly, it is rather odd that HAL can order 83 radars without orders for MK1A. There is a reason why orders have to be placed. The 3 year period between order and manufacturing is all one needs to procure radar. What was the hurry?

The sources of JANES and other news could be just like SPIKE deal. At the end, it was scrapped. The news spoke as if it was fully ready to be manufactured amd that Indian partner had already been selected etc. But all that turned to be fake news. I am suspecting that this 83 radar order without IAF placing order for MK1A also to be like this SPIKE ATGM deal

Yes RBE2 AA did get tested for that long. So was Captor E AESA and now Byelkha S. RBE 2 AESA started testing on a Mirage 2000 testbed in 2007 and the first Rafale carrying the production version was delivered in October 2012, a gap of 5.5 years.

Rest of your post shows lack of research and knowledge. The tender exists, there are images of the tender document on this forum and other websites, its not fake news regardless of how odd it seems to you. You can suspect whatever you want, HAL has already selected Elta 2052 and MBDA has already protested against the decision.

Spike deal was different. DRDO contended that they could deliver MPATGM on time. There is no such promise for Uttam. Till date, DRDO has not made a single statement which suggests that they want to see Uttam on Mk1A. It is only fanboys like you who are desperately trying to link Uttam with Mk1A when clearly the radar is meant for Mk2.

 

[Vijyes]

Yes RBE2 AA did get tested for that long. So was Captor E AESA and now Byelkha S. RBE 2 AESA started testing on a Mirage 2000 testbed in 2007 and the first Rafale carrying the production version was delivered in October 2012, a gap of 5.5 years.

RBE2A was initially using USA TR modules and hence France didn't induct it. France took time to develop its own TR modules and that took this time. Once France had is own TR modules, it didn't take time to induct. In case of India, India already has TR module made in India and hence doesn't have to rely on imports. So, the delay of France doesn't happen.

Rest of your post shows lack of research and knowledge. The tender exists, there are images of the tender document on this forum and other websites, its not fake news regardless of how odd it seems to you. You can suspect whatever you want, HAL has already selected Elta 2052 and MBDA has already protested against the decision

The tender exists. As soon as IAF sent tender/RFI for MK1A, HAL can also send tender for ots parts. Unless IAF confirms the order, the tender for radar can't be converted to order. How can HAL order the radar without receiving order for planes? Can you explain the logic before calling me uninformed?

Spike deal was different. DRDO contended that they could deliver MPATGM on time. There is no such promise for Uttam. Till date, DRDO has not made a single statement which suggests that they want to see Uttam on Mk1A. It is only fanboys like you who are desperately trying to link Uttam with Mk1A when clearly the radar is meant for Mk2.

DRDO hasn't made statement that UTTAM is for MK1A? Did you see interview of Ananthakrishna with UTTAM stall representative in AEROINDIA? He stated this.

It is true that UTTAM is meant for MK2 but it can also be used for MK1A. The testing for UTTAM is being done on MK1 which shows its compatibility.

My contention is simply that there is no order for MK1A and hence ELTA radar can't be ordered for it. Secondly, modifying a radar to suit a plane also takes time and is not a simple job. Would Israel do that for mere 83 orders? Is it worth paying Israel additional payment for modifications to suit Tejas radome and power requirement?

Calling people fanboy when you can't answer these questions reflect poorly on you and in turn show how you are part of the import lobby.

 

[Defcon 1]

RBE2A was initially using USA TR modules and hence France didn't induct it. France took time to develop its own TR modules and that took this time. Once France had is own TR modules, it didn't take time to induct. In case of India, India already has TR module made in India and hence doesn't have to rely on imports. So, the delay of France doesn't happen.

More BS. France had developed its T/R modules by 2006. Flight testing started after that.

The tender exists. As soon as IAF sent tender/RFI for MK1A, HAL can also send tender for ots parts. Unless IAF confirms the order, the tender for radar can't be converted to order. How can HAL order the radar without receiving order for planes? Can you explain the logic before calling me uninformed?

The logic is very simple. HAL didn't want to delay the Mk1A due to delay in order otherwise Tejas production line will become idle. And HAL can do whatever it wants. Thanks.

DRDO hasn't made statement that UTTAM is for MK1A? Did you see interview of Ananthakrishna with UTTAM stall representative in AEROINDIA? He stated this.

It is true that UTTAM is meant for MK2 but it can also be used for MK1A. The testing for UTTAM is being done on MK1 which shows its compatibility.

Uttam stall representative? You didn't go low enough. Next time, please also share the opinion of Aero India watchman and we can debate on it like it is official position of DRDO.

Btw, just because it can be used for Mk1A doesn't mean it is targetted towards it. DRDO is targeting UTTAM for Mk2 and that is a fact. You can cry about it all you want.

My contention is simply that there is no order for MK1A and hence ELTA radar can't be ordered for it. Secondly, modifying a radar to suit a plane also takes time and is not a simple job. Would Israel do that for mere 83 orders? Is it worth paying Israel additional payment for modifications to suit Tejas radome and power requirement?

Calling people fanboy when you can't answer these questions reflect poorly on you and in turn show how you are part of the import lobby.

Dude do not say stupid things. There is DAC approval for Mk1A in place already. Where does it say that HAL can't order radar for it? Are you inventing this yourself?

Everyone was ready to modify their radar for Mk1A. HAL's tender received 5 replies from all over the globe. Again, the fact you don't know this shows your lack of knowledge.

Yes I am part of import lobby. I just earned 5 rupees for this post. Happy now? I have also included this information in my signature so that everyone knows about this beforehand.

 

[Immanuel]

83 LCA Tejas MK-1A will have EL-2052 and that's a done deal, this radar is already selected. Uttam will come when it will come, first let it fly several years on the various LSPs. It should at least match the performance of the EL-2052 before IAF will allow it go anywhere on the MK-1A or 2 for that matter. Most likely after a lot of testing on the LSPs, an upgraded version will make it to the LCA MK-2 but for now it is a test bed radar.

The rest of giggerish about Uttam or Kaveri is non sense. They are test beds till they prove otherwise.

 

[Defcon 1]

83 LCA Tejas MK-1A will have EL-2052 and that's a done deal, this radar is already selected. Uttam will come when it will come, first let it fly several years on the various LSPs. It should at least match the performance of the EL-2052 before IAF will allow it go anywhere on the MK-1A or 2 for that matter. Most likely after a lot of testing on the LSPs, an upgraded version will make it to the LCA MK-2 but for now it is a test bed radar.

The rest of giggerish about Uttam or Kaveri is non sense. They are test beds till they prove otherwise.

Are you a part of import lobby?

 

[no smoking]

There are plenty of tests during development and the ones mentioned are during user qualification trials. Even Americans test like that. Unless China uses hi-fi simulations and skips testing altogether.

Do you even read what we said carefully?
He said that ballistic missile only need 3 tests to get inducted.
I just pointed that number of tests is not enough, not even for user trial.

 

[mahesh]

Kjl 7a radar range 170km for rcs5m²
Tejas clean configuration RCS value 3

Uttam aesa radar range 150km for rcs2m²
Jf17 clean configuration RCS value 9

El/m 2052radar range ????

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What would be Tejas RCS with all the possible missiles and tanks?


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