LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Roland55]

Integration and testing is one part. Buying enough desi BVRs for our LCA squardrons is more important given the fact that only 250 Astra MK1s have been ordered by the IAF yet.

I agree, but it also opens a new option for export right?

 

[IndianHawk]

HAMMER and SAAW have little overlap. SAAW will come to LCA soon enough


On the face of it the HAMMER integration move is odd as the IAF paid HEAVILY to integrate SPICE onto the Rafale but then they have also ordered HAMMER for their Rafales.


Further cements my view that the IAF are like spoilt kids that feel like they need to have everything they can buy but in this case they are paying to integrate the HAMMER onto the LCA which *may* make it a little more marketable on the international market- at the very least it validates ADA's point that they can happily integrate any sub-system/weapon the user wants quite easily onto the LCA.

LCA with I-Derby and Hammer, it's a more formidable weapons package than the SU-30 MKI has

The logic is when on forward bases lca could use whatever is available in inventory even for other jets like Rafale su30mki etc. At times of war you don't have luxury of exclusive weapon.

That is why they will integrate it with all kinds of weapons.

 

[IndianHawk]

Integration and testing is one part. Buying enough desi BVRs for our LCA squardrons is more important given the fact that only 250 Astra MK1s have been ordered by the IAF yet.

Astra will keep coming regularly in batches.
250 astra can take down entire Pakistani airforce. That's not a bad for first batch order.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Whats the situation with the I Derby on LCA?

 

[Bleh]

Integration and testing is one part. Buying enough desi BVRs for our LCA squardrons is more important given the fact that only 250 Astra MK1s have been ordered by the IAF yet.

Only available on Su-30 now.. Let it expand.

Whats the situation with the I Derby on LCA?

Possibly added. During Python-5 trials they said "enhanced" Derby also tried.

 

[not so dravidian]

Why we need HAMMER? what about SAAW?

I cud infer 2 things from this
1. DRDO HSLD isn't ready. I remeber DRDO having glide issues with Sudershan bomb making it limited to 9km from 25k feet, hence HSLD was commenced.
Seems like the gimballed LGB kit need a few more years of testing

2. Quad rack for Tejas mk1 may not have been realised.

Interesting part is that, we have called for HAMMER. Maybe PB gimmick or intended for some strike role??

If yes, then where in LAC/LOC ?
Maybe Tejas can use terrain avoidance along with mountain make ideal for strike??

 

[Bleh]

Why we need HAMMER? what about SAAW?

I cud infer 2 things from this
1. DRDO HSLD isn't ready. I remeber DRDO having glide issues with Sudershan bomb making it limited to 9km from 25k feet, hence HSLD was commenced.
Seems like the gimballed LGB kit need a few more years of testing

2. Quad rack for Tejas mk1 may not have been realised.

Interesting part is that, we have called for HAMMER. Maybe PB gimmick or intended for some strike role??

If yes, then where in LAC/LOC ?
Maybe Tejas can use terrain avoidance along with mountain make ideal for strike??

Sudarshan is cancelled.. HSLD is cleared, but integrated only to Su-30 yet. We'll be integrating everything we have or hands on to Tejas eventually. Expect to hear news like this for SCALP, Meteor, Spice too in Mark1A.

SAAW being integrated.

 

[MirageBlue]

well i have a separate Q...we all know that the the Gripen-C abilities are marginally ahead of LCA, right?, sure it has canards that give it higher angle of attack,etc but given the thai Gripen beat the PLAAF J11s recently, makes me wonder if the LCA FOC is capableof the same and that Tejas is an LCA only in name but not exactly, just like AGNI-5 is 'only ' 5000km range missile ...what do u guys say?

Gripen Cs from the Royal Thai AF beat PLAAF J-11s in BVR combat where they simulated using the AMRAAM. In WVR combat the tables turned.

Which again means that WVR combat is best avoided if possible. And the Tejas' BVR capabilities must be top notch. iDerby ER and Astra Mk1/Mk2/Mk3 combined with the Uttam/Elta 2052 AESA and SDR for secure comms will ensure that.

 

[Bleh]

Gripen Cs from the Royal Thai AF beat PLAAF J-11s in BVR combat where they simulated using the AMRAAM. In WVR combat the tables turned.

Which again means that WVR combat is best avoided if possible. And the Tejas' BVR capabilities must be top notch. iDerby ER and Astra Mk1/Mk2/Mk3 combined with the Uttam/Elta 2052 AESA and SDR for secure comms will ensure that.

One thing Indians often miss in haste to comfort themselves.

J-11s are outdated Su-27 copies... J-15/16 are highly upgraded to beyond Su-35 (than only got 24 of those, wanted 4 before Russia pressureed) level & light composite build.

 

[Tang]

I agree, but it also opens a new option for export right?

Yes a BVR at the level of AMRAAM-120C5

 

[sanghi neta]

Sudarshan is cancelled.. HSLD is cleared, but integrated only to Su-30 yet. We'll be integrating everything we have or hands on to Tejas eventually. Expect to hear news like this for SCALP, Meteor, Spice too in Mark1A.

SAAW being integrated.

the reason we can integrate all these weapons on TEJAS is because we have all the source codes

Right??

 

[MirageBlue]

I agree, but it also opens a new option for export right?

Yes it does. One that doesn't need to be approved by another nation.

 

[Bleh]

the reason we can integrate all these weapons on TEJAS is because we have all the source codes

Right??

Even basic permission issues.. Like France don't permit integration of Meteor or MICA until the Israeli radar is replaced

 

[Spitfire9]

Even basic permission issues.. Like France don't permit integration of Meteor or MICA until the Israeli radar is replaced

MICA is French. Meteor is multinational. Can France prevent Meteor integration on Indian aircraft?

 

[Bleh]

MICA is French. Meteor is multinational. Can France prevent Meteor integration on Indian aircraft?

I think they have a say.. Or maybe done other stakeholders created the issue. Basically no chance until Uttam

 

[Spitfire9]

I think they have a say.. Or maybe done other stakeholders created the issue. Basically no chance until Uttam

I wonder if some integration work can be done before Uttam is finalised to bring forward EIS on Mk1A.

 

[Bleh]

 

[Tang]

the reason we can integrate all these weapons on TEJAS is because we have all the source codes

Right??

Same for Su30MKI

 

[Homi J Bhaba]

High-performance fighters have one of three wing shapes- trapezoidal (leading edge sweeps back, trailing edge sweeps forward), sweptback (with low aspect ratio & both leading and trailing edges sweep back) & delta. The former two designed primarily for high-speed flight have relatively poor low-speed characteristics- the first consequence of poor lift at low speeds is a higher stall speed (minimum speed an aeroplane must fly to produce lift or else fall to earth). If stall speed is high the plane is forced to fly faster than that (irrespective of mission), burn more fuel increasing the cost of flying it.

The second consequence is how lift & drag vary at low speeds- you need to understand the low-speed flight regime, the region of reverse command & power curve explained here beautifully-


There are three regions in the power curve and airspeed control is king
1. Region of reverse command- We have a lot of drag on the airplane at lower airspeeds (high AoA having to plough through air) which is the back side of the power curve. Speed increases, drag reduces.
2. Minimum drag- When you want to go far this provides maximum endurance- any slower or faster you have more drag.
3. Front side of the power curve- Step on the gas, speed increases, drag increases until you reach top speed.

Good low speed handling is important- every plane operates there, intentionally, at least twice every flight- during take-off and landing. Delta wings can produce a lot of additional lift at low-speeds (when placed in a high angle of attack, thanks to leading-edge vortices)- affording better handling characteristics in the region of reverse command.

When you are coming in for approach, you are aiming for minimum drag- if you are slower then you have to add power as you are fighting higher drag. If perchance you are dangerously slow, then you have substantially more drag. To get rid of this drag you need to speed up, by losing altitude. Only then you will have engine power available to climb away from the ground. Now imagine you are at 20 feet and you have to go down to go up because of being on the wrong side of the power curve- but you don't have enough altitude to lose to gain speed!

Having both safety margin of lift and higher control at low speeds are a boon for landing on aircraft carriers as it allows precise manoeuvring to trap the plane. It has benefits for land based planes too as it can operate from shorter runways- does not need to build up higher speeds to create lift & take off. Also on landing it can come in slow reducing stress on the airframe, wear & tear on landing gear giving it higher life and since the speed was low, to begin with- can come to a stop at a smaller distance. That's a win-win!

Wow very well explained, kudos.

 

[Homi J Bhaba]

Is it really worth it to open another line just for export ?

Depends if say Malaysia order 18-36, it will be profitable.