LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[mist_consecutive]

On the contrary, I think early export success is better because it might make HAL consider more assembly lines which will be beneficial in the long term. Tejas Mk1A should be a lot more mature now than Dhruv Mk1 was. Maintenance problems are already sorted with LRU optimization. I heard HAL is offering an MRO facility in the deal, so spare support should be no problem.

More assembly lines can be set up within 6-8 months, advantages of having indigenous products.
The problem is reputation. We are just a newbie in the massive cutthroat market of weapon sellers, and giants like LM, Boeing, Sukhoi have set up their reputation of quality through decades of export and support.
If we rush on our newly made toys, the worst thing that can happen is damage to HAL/India's reputation and quality of weapons.

For example, let's say we export Tejas, and Malaysia comes back saying radar is not working correctly due to the high-humidity conditions of Malaysia. This will impact greatly on our global image and China/Russia/American lobby will leave no stones unturned to defame us.

If such problems are within the country, we will just revert back to HAL and they will correct it within 4-6 months. Even if the delivery is late, we will curse GoI and HAL, but will accept because it is our own product nonetheless.
In other countries, we will have to face strict penalties.

Agree with most of your points but my problem is exporting it to countries like Malaysia that have potential to be Porkistan 2.0 and in past have sided with Porkistan.

Weapons manufacture is big leverage upon any country. For example, if Malaysia turns against us in the future, we simply stop supporting Tejas & selling them spare parts anymore, and within months their whole squadrons of Tejas will be grounded.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Came across this Malaysian forum.
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5208135
My god the level of prejudice against Tejas is amazing. Started wondering if these people really Malaysians or Pakistanis. Nobody gave any real critique except for some vague "HAL poor safety record, Indian Sukhois and MiGs drop like flies", etc nonsense as well as a Pakistani response:-

• Tejas
  • >took more than 30 years, still have problems
  • >budget overrun of 25x. not 25 percent more but 25 times more
  • >has 53 significant shortfalls including short range and could only carry around 3 ton payload (slightly more than tudm hawk)
  • >is less than 30 percent indian made even when it's touted as "indigenous made aircraft"
  • >still not achieve FOC, barely 2 squadron operational (roughly 24-30 planes)
• JF-17
  • >50/50 JV between Pakistan and China
  • >developed in 1995, first flight in 2003, introduced in 2007
  • >Achieved FOC 10 years ago with problems pretty much sorted out
  • >Stealth (okay, more like "lo-observable) JF-17 is under development
  • >can carry 4.5 ton payload with worse engine (RD-33 vs F404 in Tejas)
  • >close to150 planes built
  • >actually has export potential

​

View attachment 115903


Now I really want Tejas to win just to see the meltdown in that forum.

These guys won't be even able to say anything sensible when you tell them facts based about similar time delays and cost overuns on other projects from countries whose aeronautical complex were already well established.

The above insensible stated things about Tejas are just way too much hoaxed.
And it needs next level of smoke for them to even consider jf 17, whose all sensor and weapon packages are from China.

 

[Mutyala rayadu]

If malaysia choses tejas and they want to barter with palm oil how would it work?

Would HAL end up with a lot of palm oil/palm oil futures? or gov compensates HAL and contract is between malaysia <==> GoI

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Well, jf 17 block3 do have advantage over Tejas mk1a in terms that it has MAWS,IRST which are not possible on mk1a due to space constraint. Their air cooled aesa radar is seriously lacking but has wide range of weapons presently. What do others think about this.

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

Came across this Malaysian forum.
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5208135
My god the level of prejudice against Tejas is amazing. Started wondering if these people really Malaysians or Pakistanis. Nobody gave any real critique except for some vague "HAL poor safety record, Indian Sukhois and MiGs drop like flies", etc nonsense as well as a Pakistani response:-

• Tejas
  • >took more than 30 years, still have problems
  • >budget overrun of 25x. not 25 percent more but 25 times more
  • >has 53 significant shortfalls including short range and could only carry around 3 ton payload (slightly more than tudm hawk)
  • >is less than 30 percent indian made even when it's touted as "indigenous made aircraft"
  • >still not achieve FOC, barely 2 squadron operational (roughly 24-30 planes)
• JF-17
  • >50/50 JV between Pakistan and China
  • >developed in 1995, first flight in 2003, introduced in 2007
  • >Achieved FOC 10 years ago with problems pretty much sorted out
  • >Stealth (okay, more like "lo-observable) JF-17 is under development
  • >can carry 4.5 ton payload with worse engine (RD-33 vs F404 in Tejas)
  • >close to150 planes built
  • >actually has export potential

​

View attachment 115903


Now I really want Tejas to win just to see the meltdown in that forum.

Who wrote this stuff 30 percent indigenous
Jf-17 a JV yeah what's Pakistani in jf-17 the paint I don't even think that

 

[Mutyala rayadu]

Came across this Malaysian forum.
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5208135
My god the level of prejudice against Tejas is amazing. Started wondering if these people really Malaysians or Pakistanis. Nobody gave any real critique except for some vague "HAL poor safety record, Indian Sukhois and MiGs drop like flies", etc nonsense as well as a Pakistani response:-

• Tejas
  • >took more than 30 years, still have problems
  • >budget overrun of 25x. not 25 percent more but 25 times more
  • >has 53 significant shortfalls including short range and could only carry around 3 ton payload (slightly more than tudm hawk)
  • >is less than 30 percent indian made even when it's touted as "indigenous made aircraft"
  • >still not achieve FOC, barely 2 squadron operational (roughly 24-30 planes)
• JF-17
  • >50/50 JV between Pakistan and China
  • >developed in 1995, first flight in 2003, introduced in 2007
  • >Achieved FOC 10 years ago with problems pretty much sorted out
  • >Stealth (okay, more like "lo-observable) JF-17 is under development
  • >can carry 4.5 ton payload with worse engine (RD-33 vs F404 in Tejas)
  • >close to150 planes built
  • >actually has export potential

​

View attachment 115903


Now I really want Tejas to win just to see the meltdown in that forum.

Wants to praise JunkFighter, but still endups saying it has worse engine.

 

[Brood Father]

Call me unambitious, but I strongly believe we should not export Tejas till we have inducted our share (Mk1A/2) and manufacturing lines are running dry.

Also, a newly developed aircraft is bound to have problems and shortfalls which are only observed once it is in active service for some time. Hence we ought to mature the platform and sort out any such issues before giving them to friendly countries.

HAL/GoI did the same mistake in HAL Dhruv, sold it to Ecuador early on, the earlier versions of Dhruv were extremely maintenance-heavy and frequently encountered snags. Unavailability of local OEM and spare parts got them crashed and grounded.

Once we start Tejas Mk2, all the critical systems including indigenous AESA (Uttam Mk2), weapons (Astra), and EW + SPJ suites would have been matured by that time, which will be formidable and a capable export platform.

Yes .. first let's focus on IAF requirement ,and when it suceeds in India then everyone will line up for this jet ..
Or else one small incident will be made a propaganda against Tejas by Chinese and porkies lobbies and we are very bad in countering propaganda..

 

[Photon]

Maruth Vs Tejas

 

[Bleh]

Well, jf 17 block3 do have advantage over Tejas mk1a in terms that it has MAWS,IRST which are not possible on mk1a due to space constraint. Their air cooled aesa radar is seriously lacking but has wide range of weapons presently. What do others think about this.

Those are nothing. Major factor IMO are it's 95kN engine upgrade (at cost of range & service life tho). The other is already integrated anti-radiation missile, aeroballistic missile, cruise-missile, anti-ship missile, glide-bombs on FC-1!.. Gotta give that to Sino-Pak. They did everything that could be done... Tejas is still stuck at LGBs & dummy Brahmos-NG (stands for not-gonna-happen).

MAWS won't be added to LCA for to minimal ROI (& we want to keep it cheap). IRST definitely would be nice tho. MWF & Tejas has the same front. I don't see why it can't be copy-pasted

 

[avknight1408]

Large industrial buildings coming up at HAL Bengaluru. In Google maps they are labelled as 'New LCA complex'. Not sure about the authenticity. Experts of DFI can concur.

GMaps location - New LCA Complex

 

[THESIS THORON]

Came across this Malaysian forum.
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5208135
My god the level of prejudice against Tejas is amazing. Started wondering if these people really Malaysians or Pakistanis. Nobody gave any real critique except for some vague "HAL poor safety record, Indian Sukhois and MiGs drop like flies", etc nonsense as well as a Pakistani response:-

• Tejas
  • >took more than 30 years, still have problems
  • >budget overrun of 25x. not 25 percent more but 25 times more
  • >has 53 significant shortfalls including short range and could only carry around 3 ton payload (slightly more than tudm hawk)
  • >is less than 30 percent indian made even when it's touted as "indigenous made aircraft"
  • >still not achieve FOC, barely 2 squadron operational (roughly 24-30 planes)
• JF-17
  • >50/50 JV between Pakistan and China
  • >developed in 1995, first flight in 2003, introduced in 2007
  • >Achieved FOC 10 years ago with problems pretty much sorted out
  • >Stealth (okay, more like "lo-observable) JF-17 is under development
  • >can carry 4.5 ton payload with worse engine (RD-33 vs F404 in Tejas)
  • >close to150 planes built
  • >actually has export potential

​

View attachment 115903


Now I really want Tejas to win just to see the meltdown in that forum.

and dumb asses forgot that rd series needs maintenance like hell and the airframe of ladaka tayyara is crap.

regarding maws, untill it is not dcmaws or better than it, then it is shit, bec it will have high false alarm rate.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Came across this Malaysian forum.
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5208135
My god the level of prejudice against Tejas is amazing. Started wondering if these people really Malaysians or Pakistanis. Nobody gave any real critique except for some vague "HAL poor safety record, Indian Sukhois and MiGs drop like flies", etc nonsense as well as a Pakistani response:-

• Tejas
  • >took more than 30 years, still have problems
  • >budget overrun of 25x. not 25 percent more but 25 times more
  • >has 53 significant shortfalls including short range and could only carry around 3 ton payload (slightly more than tudm hawk)
  • >is less than 30 percent indian made even when it's touted as "indigenous made aircraft"
  • >still not achieve FOC, barely 2 squadron operational (roughly 24-30 planes)
• JF-17
  • >50/50 JV between Pakistan and China
  • >developed in 1995, first flight in 2003, introduced in 2007
  • >Achieved FOC 10 years ago with problems pretty much sorted out
  • >Stealth (okay, more like "lo-observable) JF-17 is under development
  • >can carry 4.5 ton payload with worse engine (RD-33 vs F404 in Tejas)
  • >close to150 planes built
  • >actually has export potential

​

View attachment 115903


Now I really want Tejas to win just to see the meltdown in that forum.

got something on that forum

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Those are nothing. Major factor IMO are it's 95kN engine upgrade (at cost of range & service life tho). The other is already integrated anti-radiation missile, aeroballistic missile, cruise-missile, anti-ship missile, glide-bombs on FC-1!.. Gotta give that to Sino-Pak. They did everything that could be done... Tejas is still stuck at LGBs & dummy Brahmos-NG (stands for not-gonna-happen).

MAWS won't be added to LCA for to minimal ROI (& we want to keep it cheap). IRST definitely would be nice tho. MWF & Tejas has the same front. I don't see why it can't be copy-pasted

Well in my view, there should be Laser warning system LWS also standard among future and refit aircraft too(Tejas mk2 doesn't have it, for God's sake take a clue form Rafale, dear IAF) as it acts like RWR for gun based cannon threats and other passive sensor shorads(likely to find how far are you to get a fire solution) or you won't even know that a sneaky GBADS is aiming at you.

IAF never really had true standoff vectors in it's arsenal until just now(only some storm shadow missiles).No long range cruise missiles, no glide bombs, basically no ability to hit ground targets beyond 60km of spice 2000(we don't have spice 1000) and less is said about the ability to engage moving targets(no suitable weapon in arsenal).

Would it kill to think something like long range vectors air as well as ground, TALD like systems to help in SEAD and most importantly a system like David sling and iron some as bases would be the first casualties from massive chines rocket barrage and TBM.

Every time I see defexpo of China, it convinces me more and more that without a national plan and significant funding, we can't really counter in technology let alone match. Heck, looks like for every defense project in world, theres a Chinese version. Bhai kitna paisa h in logo k pas. Asli tech savy to Chinese h, hum toh bas dekh hi sakte h. Yha REAL COLD WAR 2.0 chal rhi h aur hum bas baithe h.

And what are your views on the new air chief again stating on Bharat Shakti defense conclave(see youtube) his support for mk1a and AMCA but again didn't say anything abou mk2. Planning to kill our beloved mk2 in favour of new fighter procurement.

 

[Spitfire9]

The problem is reputation. We are just a newbie in the massive cutthroat market of weapon sellers, and giants like LM, Boeing, Sukhoi have set up their reputation of quality through decades of export and support.

I agree. I would say that HAL has a bad reputation. To gain a first sale the people selling Tejas start at a disadvantage to the competition. If I could choose to buy exactly the same fighter made by a US or European or Russian company or by HAL, which supplier would I be least inclined to choose?

We are just a newbie in the massive cutthroat market of weapon sellers..

That in itself is a problem. I think of Japan's failure to sell its P-1 MRA aircraft to UK and New Zealand even though it would probably have been a better choice than Boeing's P-8 Poseidon.

If we rush on our newly made toys, the worst thing that can happen is damage to HAL/India's reputation...

Look what happened to Sukhoi's Superjet. It had glowing reports when it first went into service outside Russia.

'By February 2019, CityJet's remaining five SSJ100s stood idle and were expected to be transferred to Slovenia's Adria Airways, which committed for 15 in late 2018, though Adria subsequently cancelled its order in April 2019. Neither CityJet nor Brussels Airlines have commented as to why they dropped the SSJ, though low reliability, difficult maintenance and spare parts availability are suspected to have contributed.

As of March 2019, 15 of Interjet's 22 SSJs were out of service. Talks with Sukhoi were deadlocked, with Interjet reportedly unwilling to pay for repairs to the PowerJet SaM146 engines. Interjet's reliability issues are compounded by the lack of service facilities for the SSJ, a factor which also contributed to the poor reliability recorded by CityJet.'

Sukhoi Superjet 100 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Outside of Russia, any interest in buying Sukhoi Superjet now?

 

[Spitfire9]

Large industrial buildings coming up at HAL Bengaluru. In Google maps they are labelled as 'New LCA complex'. Not sure about the authenticity. Experts of DFI can concur.

View attachment 115935

GMaps location - New LCA Complex

Interesting. Might that increase LCA assembly capacity by 8 to 24pa? That seems a more sensible level to me. Who knows, more might be ordered for IAF to cover retirements before the mooted 114/more Rafales/Mk2 are delivered to IAF and/or export orders could be delivered more quickly.

Is there any chance of a Mk1A follow order for another squadron or two?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Outside of Russia, any interest in buying Sukhoi Superjet now?

NO. Only countries sanctioned by US could purchase them if they could afford.

 

[Spitfire9]

NO. Only countries sanctioned by US could purchase them if they could afford.

That may be the case but I think that western airline interest disappeared when it became apparent that Sukhoi's after sales service was inadequate. IIRC Interjet was reduced to cannibalising frames due to parts shortages. Aeroflot reported average daily use of <4 hours rather than the >8 hours intended.

I don't think that any sane non-Russian airline executive would propose buying from Sukhoi now.

I think that HAL should implement whatever changes are necessary to ensure in advance of any export orders that Mk1A will be given support in a timely manner.

 

[Ghost hale]

Those are nothing. Major factor IMO are it's 95kN engine upgrade (at cost of range & service life tho). The other is already integrated anti-radiation missile, aeroballistic missile, cruise-missile, anti-ship missile, glide-bombs on FC-1!.. Gotta give that to Sino-Pak. They did everything that could be done... Tejas is still stuck at LGBs & dummy Brahmos-NG (stands for not-gonna-happen).

MAWS won't be added to LCA for to minimal ROI (& we want to keep it cheap). IRST definitely would be nice tho. MWF & Tejas has the same front. I don't see why it can't be copy-pasted

 

[Bleh]

Why are you inflicting that upon me, i despite singing completely different?.. Endurance wise Mi-35 will blow them out of the air, in the Argentina deal.

 

[dumdumdum]

Large industrial buildings coming up at HAL Bengaluru. In Google maps they are labelled as 'New LCA complex'. Not sure about the authenticity. Experts of DFI can concur.

View attachment 115935

GMaps location - New LCA Complex

This seems to be on other side of old airport road road as compared to current LCA Division