LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

HariPrasad-1

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LOL, production of Mk1a was supposed to be started in 2023 at most 2024, it will happen without a doubt and i don't know on what basis you guys are chomping out. There's no credible info on what's happening unless you know something which we are not aware of then please do share. Few aircraft delays doesn't mean whole schedule is going to be delayed by 5 to 6 years, don't get too excited.



What failure exactly? Do you have any credible info backing your points or this is just a conjecture of a randi rona gang that starts chimping out every third week.
What will be the changes in Mk1A except electronics? there are multiple figures of weight reduction are floating. Bring it down to 6 ton and it will kick the @$$ of anything.
 

FalconZero

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What will be the changes in Mk1A except electronics? there are multiple figures of weight reduction are floating. Bring it down to 6 ton and it will kick the @$$ of anything.
Other than radar, few electronics, increase in indigenous content and ease of maintenance I doubt it has any other changes, it was after all stopgap to Mk2 which is what Tejas project should culminate into.

Other stuff like missiles etc will be present in both mk1 and eventually mk1a so there are hardly any changes in that regard.
 

MirageBlue

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Kind of pushes JF-17 to the top of the list, doesn't it?

Even without the problem of Israeli content, I don't see how HAL could supply 36 to Malaysia without delaying delivery of 36 to IAF by more than 2 years, so getting the order would create problems because of HAL's disinclination to increase annual production capacity. I think that such an order would have kept an extra 8 per annum plant busy for 5+ years.

People tell me it is a risk too far to build another assembly plant. Not if you are a business with an ambition to break into the world market to profit from a competitive product range (Mk1A, MWF). But fair enough, while GOI wants to India to become a force in the world arms market, HAL finds it all too frighteningly risky to make that a possibility.

Having said that, if 90% share owner GOI won't invest in HAL to expand capacity or would take years to reach such a decision and stump up the money, selling fighter aircraft abroad in numbers will remain a GOI dream and Mk1A and MWF will not have much of an export future.
The HAL Chairman has on multiple occasions stated that they can increase the production run to 24 fighters per year, but it has to be ECONOMICAL.

You cannot invest thousands of crores on an assembly line only to have it going for 3-4 years before it has to be shuttered or revamped with a new product. It will only drive up the cost of each Tejas as they'll need more jigs/fixtures/labor etc. to produce more per year unless the IAF is willing to increase the order size by having another batch of Tejas Mk1As added. But that isn't happening, so the decision on the delivery schedule would've been taken with HAL and IAF agreeing on the numbers to be delivered each year.

16 per year is basically a new squadron of Tejas Mk1As each year and is more than the number of Su-30MKIs that were produced by HAL at any time in the past 15 years since it started assembling them.

But if there is an export order then HAL would need to work with it's suppliers and the GoI to increase the number it assembles per year. Supposedly possible, but of course, in practice it will not be easy to scale up quickly as all the supppliers need to scale up as well and with India's bureaucracy, nothing that involves the MoD or the GoI is easy. Typically however, private companies welcome such a problem whereas public sector companies see no major gain in adding more to their kitty since their jobs are safe and incentives to grow are much lesser.
 

Ghost hale

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Sorry, I do not speak Hindi (if that was the language in the video).
What is the laser designator on Mk1A, please?
FCR - Uttam AESA
Requirment - 36
Price - INR 309 CR Per a/c services and armaments not included (40-41 Mil USD)
Missiles - Astra MK1, R73 others can also be offered
Targeting POD - Su30 MKM uses french Damocles currently used by Malaysia So French Talios can be offered.
Jammers - Alta8222 can be replaced by DARE's ASPJ is in final stage of development.
HMD - French HMD's can be integrated.
Engine - same as already used with Malaysian F-18s
Missile - Russian missiles already used for Su 30 MKM
 
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MirageBlue

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Sorry, I do not speak Hindi (if that was the language in the video).
What is the laser designator on Mk1A, please?
Same as the existing one - Litening 5. India acquired quite a few (164 units) from Israel a few years ago. They will likely order more for the growing Tejas fleet, since the Litening LDP is very closely wedded to the type, having been used very extensively in all scenarios.
 

MirageBlue

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FCR - Uttam AESA
Requirment - 36
Price - INR 309 CR Per a/c services and armaments not included ($0-41 Mil USD)
Missiles - Astra MK1, R73 others can also be offered
Targeting POD - Su30 MKM uses french Damocles currently used by Malaysia So French Talios can be offered.
Jammers - Alta8222 can be replaced by DARE's ASPJ is in final stage of development.
HMD - French HMD's can be integrated.
Engine - same as already used with Malaysian F-18s
Missile - Russian missiles already used for Su 30 MKM
You can't offer something that you haven't yet integrated yourself. HAL will then have to include the costs of integration for the French Damocles or Talios as well in their response to the RFP.

Which French HMD? Even for the Rafale, it is the Israeli Targo HMDS that was integrated for Qatar and India.

Engine commonality with their F/A-18s will be a big plus since they know the engine well.
 

Ghost hale

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You can't offer something that you haven't yet integrated yourself. HAL will then have to include the costs of integration for the French Damocles or Talios as well in their response to the RFP.

Which French HMD? Even for the Rafale, it is the Israeli Targo HMDS that was integrated for Qatar and India.

Engine commonality with their F/A-18s will be a big plus since they know the engine well.
Points to ponder :
1. U r talking about an a/c that is to be delivered in 2025-26 at earliest. Even after that.
2. TejEx was to be bare bones with options available for integration as U hv ur FCR so that is not case of IF but when. France already had shared Pod with Malaysia and Relations with India is All time high so no issues there.
3. That was India's choice. France offered their HMD. It was to maintain commonality. One of the India specific changes.
 

Spitfire9

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The HAL Chairman has on multiple occasions stated that they can increase the production run to 24 fighters per year, but it has to be ECONOMICAL.

You cannot invest thousands of crores on an assembly line only to have it going for 3-4 years before it has to be shuttered or revamped with a new product.
If you don't have the ability to commit to what you think is a competitive product/service that can be sold profitably in a viably sized market, other people would be better suited to running the business than you.

Companies frequently make investments which would result in loss unless they were successful in gaining orders from more than one customer. You don't shy away from the risk of losing money if you don't make sales to more customers. If your product/service is competitive, you look to the profit that can be made, you go out and you secure sales. Why wouldn't that happen if you are half decent at business?

But if there is an export order then HAL would need to work with it's suppliers and the GoI to increase the number it assembles per year. Supposedly possible, but of course, in practice it will not be easy to scale up quickly as all the supppliers need to scale up as well and with India's bureaucracy, nothing that involves the MoD or the GoI is easy. Typically however, private companies welcome such a problem whereas public sector companies see no major gain in adding more to their kitty since their jobs are safe and incentives to grow are much lesser.
You said it - private companies would be better suited to maximising returns on India's investment in making Indian aircraft.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Expect the Tejas Mk1A with Uttam, Astra Mk1, Mk2 and ASRAAM. Litening LDP has no alternative as of now. The SPJ is going to be another Israeli product that the Malays may not want. Not sure what HAL can offer in it's place, since it will also require integration with the Tejas Mk1A and it's radar.

FA-50 has the same issue- it uses Israeli Elta 2032 MSA radar which is anyway inferior to the Elta 2052 or Uttam. Not sure what the South Koreans could offer instead, possibly the radar being developed for the Boramae, which is indigenous with Israeli help and support for validation and testing. But AFAIK, there is no plan on the SoKo side to have a new FA-50 variant with AESA radar as yet.
Malaysians are caught btw a rock and a hard place. Their ex PM Mahathir preferred JF17, but being a Chinese manufactured Pakistani painted product with latest incursions on its border, it can't really select that plane. The rest Indian Tejas and Korean fighter uses Israeli product. Advantages of Indian products is engine and Russian missiles. Advantages of Korean products is US missiles it uses. And then the last is Yak and Leonardo trainers. Only Indian Tejas is kinda full fledged fighter with improvements possibilities.
 

Spitfire9

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Malaysians are caught btw a rock and a hard place. Their ex PM Mahathir preferred JF17, but being a Chinese manufactured Pakistani painted product with latest incursions on its border, it can't really select that plane. The rest Indian Tejas and Korean fighter uses Israeli product. Advantages of Indian products is engine and Russian missiles. Advantages of Korean products is US missiles it uses. And then the last is Yak and Leonardo trainers. Only Indian Tejas is kinda full fledged fighter with improvements possibilities.
Complicated, isn't it?
JF-17 unsuitable for political reasons.
FA-50 ditto
Mk1A ditto

Would the YAK or Leonardo have enough performance?

On the no-Israeli content front, the KAI FA-50 could not get round that, could it (no alternative to Elta radar)? Mk1A could integrate a different LDP but what would it cost?
 
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Rajaraja Chola

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Complicated, isn't it?
JF-17 unsuitable for political reasons.
FA-50 ditto
Mk1A ditto

Would the YAK or Leonardo have enough performance?

On the no-Israeli content front, the KAI FA-50 could not get round that, could it (no alternative to Elta radar)? Mk1A could integrate a different LDP but what would it cost?
It would cost prohibitive to the Malaysians. Simple as that. If they want to buy Leonardo or Yak, they could simply buy weaponized versions of Hawk trainers and be done with. When the chinese intruded into their airspace, the RMAF responded with Hawk trainers. Sadly.

If they want a fighter, then they have to adjust with Israeli electronics. Or fund the R&D of replacement parts.
 

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