LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

A chauhan

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Gripen supercruise due to its design and area ruling,Tejas isn't designed with the area ruling in mind so the transonic and supersonic drag in LCA is higher than Gripen.Engine change will not help much....
Yeah, Tejas isn't designed with the area ruling in the mind, I don't know why designers selected this design for an aircraft which was meant to primarily replace Mig21s. Still 900kmph without afterburner is good, and I hope if they can achieve anything around Mach 1 with refinements.
 

Chinmoy

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@Chinmoy Since you seem to be the resident DFI bureaucrat over here.. can you list all the phases in the approval process from start to finish of a plane starting from early pre design phases to CCS approvals and certifications etc preferably in the order of implementation? It's getting really frustrating to read that things are getting approved routinely but no signed deal will be in sight even after a decade. You know what i'm talking about.

It will help immensely for all the forum members to be realistic on what to expect. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate.. revisions can be done in the future by anyone based on the knowledge acquired at that time based on your template.

You can start by Rev20200815v1

Lots of thanks if you are able to make some time for this nasty stuff. Ignore this if this is too time consuming.
Actually its too simple if you understand the hierarchy. Since you are talking of design aspect, lets just take a peculiar design scenario in our case.

The first step of any design procedure is PSQR. Be it for Army, AF or Navy, at first a PSQR would be issued. Sometimes its the designing authority who comes up with a project, but since its Tejas thread, lets keep it for a jet only. Here in this case, its the customer who would first come up with a plan and PSQR would be released based on the plan.

Now designing starts based on the PSQR and this PSQR generally keeps on changing to cater the need of developer or user. Sometimes developer changes it, sometimes user changes it. When all the points of PSQR gets ticked off, the ASQR is issued. Now remember that ASQR is generally static and can't be changed. It is this process which consumes most of the time. Even if PSQR gets fully ticked, one can't be sure enough of fulfilling the ASQR need.

After this comes the process of TD. After a TD is realized, then again it goes through the process of ASQR because by this time the developers and users generally come to know what to expect from the platform. It is the time when politics is played at the highest level from both sides. Remember that till now user is not committing nor doing any funding for the project. Only after the TD, if everything settles down, LSPs are ordered and it is during this time that user provide fund for those specific numbers.

After the LSPs, RFP gets issued and then subsequently RFI is issued and based on that, the deal gets signed all in good day. This is simple design to order sequence in between user and developer. In between this, comes the political part. Lets have a quick look into that.

Before any PSQR is issued, the user would create a Requirement application (forgot the correct term) and send it to CCS. The CCS would study it and based on it an AON is issued. This means a go ahead for the user to issue PSQR.

Now based on PSQR, the development authority would issue a PR and send it to same CCS for approval. Based on this PR fund is issued to the developers. Now this PR gets updated from time to time during the developmental process and the funding also goes on increasing depending on it. Now remember that most of the projects gets shelved during this process itself.

After a successful completion of TD and getting an order from user for LSP, the initial fund for the production is released from MoD with CCS approval. Although depending on project, the LSP could be funded initially by developer alone or by user.

Now based on TD and LSP performance, a formal request of acquisition is send by user to DAC. In this, the user quote the numbers and fund required for acquisition. Based on that RFP is issued and it goes to DAC for approval. Now something to look out for in this process is, when user quote a price against a specific number, it is not just for those numbers but for the whole ecosystem which they need to develop around those. So price negotiation in between user and developer is a norm during this process.

Once DAC approves RFP, the fund for the acquisition is released. It doesn't mean that IAF gets the fund, but the proposed fund is sealed for the project and can't be issued for any other project. After this RFI is issued and when it gets passed, the deal is signed. But even during this process the deal could be stalled if RFI is not found to be satisfactory. To cut this off, RFP and RFI is generally issued in conjecture.

Hope it fulfills your query.
 

Emperor Kalki

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I don't know who is feeding you wrong information about con-trail !!

Contrail is not associated with supersonic flight alone & the use of after burner in particular. You may see it even for M==0.85-0.9 at cruising altitude for civilian aircraft; Check this picture; Airbus 340 at cruising altitude(30-35k feet); I hope civilian turbofans engines doesn't use wet thrust !!

View attachment 56415

F-16 with contrails
View attachment 56425

For BVR engagement at cruising altitudes (for which most of the fighter jet have claimed supercruise capabilities), the visual confirmation via contrails plays an important part in highly cluttered environment. That's what the "FSO" of Rafale is supposed to do that; to visual ID the bogey at longer distance. Check out the extent of contrail left behind by fighter jets doing combat maneuvering (F15s intercepting a pair of Migs).

View attachment 56416

Picture courtesy : Wikipedia/Google


True; but then this scenario comes only when you are fighting war with sub-saharan countries with technologies dating back to WWI.
So far, the only aircraft with internal weapon bay that can supercruise and drop the ordinances is F-22 (in active service; not sure about J-20); even for that I would say going sonic over enemy territory is counter productive for strike missions unless you are just trying to intimidate them. Sonic boom can affect larger area around its passage rather than the sub-sonic flight meaning you are alerting larger number of people about its presence. From my perspective, significant utility of going sonic is in high speed interdiction; BVR combats, and defensive maneuvering.

There is a reason to the decline of usage of high altitude & high speed Mig 25 due to arrival of advanced EW radars and longer range SAMs.
Actually what's the point of this discussion......
Since it began here.....
The be most vital advantage of supercruise is that the troops on the ground will not hear your jet until you have crossed way past them & reaching target in matter of minutes... Thus less time to react (Ofcourse for it to be truely effective the jets needs to be stealthy).
View attachment 56321

For drones & missiles, hypersonic flight offers significant drag advantage. View attachment 56322
Let me just say that what you are talking here is essentially about supersonic flight and not supercruise....
Suersonic flight with afterburner itself satisfies this hypothesis.... (if only anyone was dumb enough to go supersonic into enemy territory at 30k altitude and let all of their sensors paint a picasso out of you.....anybody about to shout out the Indian mig 25 in pakistani airspace story right now, just keep it to yourself...its completely different)
But then what is the advantage of supercruise....well, as @piKacHHu said, it conserves your juice, that's what it does and maybe gives you a smaller IR signature, but leave that as it doesn't matter to this discussion.....
So any afterburning jet can also do this supersonic flight at 30k thingy...
How does supercruise give you any advantage as in......
the troops on the ground will not hear your jet until you have crossed way past them & reaching target in matter of minutes...
If that is an advantage, isn't that an advantage if supersonic flight ?
 

samsaptaka

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Actually its too simple if you understand the hierarchy. Since you are talking of design aspect, lets just take a peculiar design scenario in our case.

The first step of any design procedure is PSQR. Be it for Army, AF or Navy, at first a PSQR would be issued. Sometimes its the designing authority who comes up with a project, but since its Tejas thread, lets keep it for a jet only. Here in this case, its the customer who would first come up with a plan and PSQR would be released based on the plan.

Now designing starts based on the PSQR and this PSQR generally keeps on changing to cater the need of developer or user. Sometimes developer changes it, sometimes user changes it. When all the points of PSQR gets ticked off, the ASQR is issued. Now remember that ASQR is generally static and can't be changed. It is this process which consumes most of the time. Even if PSQR gets fully ticked, one can't be sure enough of fulfilling the ASQR need.

After this comes the process of TD. After a TD is realized, then again it goes through the process of ASQR because by this time the developers and users generally come to know what to expect from the platform. It is the time when politics is played at the highest level from both sides. Remember that till now user is not committing nor doing any funding for the project. Only after the TD, if everything settles down, LSPs are ordered and it is during this time that user provide fund for those specific numbers.

After the LSPs, RFP gets issued and then subsequently RFI is issued and based on that, the deal gets signed all in good day. This is simple design to order sequence in between user and developer. In between this, comes the political part. Lets have a quick look into that.

Before any PSQR is issued, the user would create a Requirement application (forgot the correct term) and send it to CCS. The CCS would study it and based on it an AON is issued. This means a go ahead for the user to issue PSQR.

Now based on PSQR, the development authority would issue a PR and send it to same CCS for approval. Based on this PR fund is issued to the developers. Now this PR gets updated from time to time during the developmental process and the funding also goes on increasing depending on it. Now remember that most of the projects gets shelved during this process itself.

After a successful completion of TD and getting an order from user for LSP, the initial fund for the production is released from MoD with CCS approval. Although depending on project, the LSP could be funded initially by developer alone or by user.

Now based on TD and LSP performance, a formal request of acquisition is send by user to DAC. In this, the user quote the numbers and fund required for acquisition. Based on that RFP is issued and it goes to DAC for approval. Now something to look out for in this process is, when user quote a price against a specific number, it is not just for those numbers but for the whole ecosystem which they need to develop around those. So price negotiation in between user and developer is a norm during this process.

Once DAC approves RFP, the fund for the acquisition is released. It doesn't mean that IAF gets the fund, but the proposed fund is sealed for the project and can't be issued for any other project. After this RFI is issued and when it gets passed, the deal is signed. But even during this process the deal could be stalled if RFI is not found to be satisfactory. To cut this off, RFP and RFI is generally issued in conjecture.

Hope it fulfills your query.
No wonder our acquisition process is a slow nightmare ! I feel like its jury rigged for dalals and babus
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Actually Gripen can supercruise @1.1 Mach with the same engine as in MWF with some aerodynamic refinements. It is said about Tejas that some refinements can be done to reduce drag, and if it is true then there is a possibility to get it supercruise capability.
Those refinements have been done MWF
 

patriots

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New Delhi [India], Aug 18 (ANI): In a significant achievement for the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, the Indian Air Force (IAF) deployed the home-grown (LCA) Tejas on the western front along the Pakistan border in view of the tensions with on the Ladakh front.The LCA Tejas was deployed by the Indian Air Force on the western front close to the Pakistan border to take care of any possible action by the adversary there, government sources told ANI.The first LCA Tejas squadron, 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) based out of Sulur under the Southern Air Command, was deployed in an operational role there, the sources said.The indigenous Tejas aircraft had been praised by Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his Independence Day speech where he had stated that the deal to buy the LCA Mark1A version was expected to be completed soon.While the first squadron of the planes is of the Initial Operational Clearance version, the second 18 Squadron 'Flying Bullets' is of the Final Operational Clearance version and was operationalized by the IAF chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria at the Sulur airbase on May 27.The Indian Air Force and the Defence Ministry are expected to finalise the deal for the 83 Mark1A aircraft by the end of this year. In view of the Chinese aggression on the borders, the IAF had deployed its assets all along the borders with both China and Pakistan.The forward airbases of the force have been equipped to take care of situations along the western and northern fronts and have seen extensive flying operations in the recent past, including both daytime and night operations.
 

BangaliBabu

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Sign the deal already :crying::crying:
what's the use of calling everything "indigenous"?? If and when this fighter jet might bag exports, still they'll call it indigenous?? What a bloody disease!! Started by Congis and permeated by the slow-witted Modi government.
 

vishnugupt

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They killed Arjun but now the time has failed them miserably.
China-India standoff left IA/IAF no place to hide their face. LCH and LCA became the centre of attention and everybody came to know who's at fault. Every bit of saliva they spitted in the past is falling back to their face.
Many people like @Bhadra and others, who were saying Tejas cant be deployed on forwards bases, must be crying somewhere in a corner. Abhi toh Party shuru hui hai..... wait and watch
 

BangaliBabu

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They killed Arjun but now the time has failed them miserably.
China-India standoff left IA/IAF no place to hide their face. LCH and LCA became the centre of attention and everybody came to know who's at fault. Every bit of saliva they spitted in the past is falling back to their face.
Many people like @Bhadra and others, who were saying Tejas cant be deployed on forwards bases, must be crying somewhere in a corner. Abhi toh Party shuru hui hai..... wait and watch
who killed Arjun??
 

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