LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[patriots]

@Bleh .........................................

 

[Bleh]

No you can't. Not really.

See how bad those are?.. That's because the video maker has no idea how fast they are going on how much energy just lost in the previous maneuver.
You will have to watch multiple full videos. No shortcuts.

These are the bad outcomes of Chinese efforts for turning a Mig 21 into omni-role fighter like Rafale. The problem got further aggravated by using an under-powered engine RD-33;

To be fair Russians came up with much up better Mig-21 descendants.

I do not know what's the Indian designers & govt. were thinking to come up with a clean slate design of Tejas, instead of building upon Mig-21 like the Chinks did.

I made it, just for the kick... Mig-21 based tailless LCA.

And compared to Tejas, the Mig-21's butt looks large enough to easily take in an F414.
Damn, Tejas is so much smaller! How's it heavier?

 

[Super lca]

Even if Tejas matches 80% kinematic performance as shown in the DCS simulation video, it will thrash the "Jeff" in WVR-Gun fight convincingly. The Mirage had a 4:1 kill ratio in this fight AFAIK.


Similarly, WVR + CCM will also give good result in favor of Tejas due to its better pitch control & AoA. In BVR, it will be a balanced fight with advantage to Tejas due to "Low" RCS and considering similar BVR arsenal (PL-10/SD-10 is copy of Derby with superior kinematic performance as claimed; in fact in DCS, it gives better performance than AMRAAM 120C5)

JF-17 - 22.5 seconds for 360 degrees. So STR is 360/22.5 = 16 degrees per second
F-16 - 18 seconds for 360 degrees. So STR is 360/18 = 20 degrees per second
And we already know tejas str is 17 and 30 degree itr per second according to the official brochure so in a dogfight with jf 17 tejas will always be victorious while 50-50 for f16

 

[piKacHHu]

JF-17 - 22.5 seconds for 360 degrees. So STR is 360/22.5 = 16 degrees per second
F-16 - 18 seconds for 360 degrees. So STR is 360/18 = 20 degrees per second
And we already know tejas str is 17and 30 degree itr degree per second according to the official brochure so in a dogfight with jf 17 tejas will always be victorious while 50-50 for f16

These WVR-Gun fights are pure demonstration of kinematic performance of fighters. That's why such exercises are still followed in mock fight/DACTs to explore the potential of jets & fine tuning of tactics in extreme dog-fight.

In real world, perhaps we will never have such encounters (IMO), the real fight will start at BVR and end with last of the CCMs being fired. I feel the Light fighters like Tejas or Jf-17 won't left with enough gas to sustain gun-fights likes these after executive evasive maneuvers against BVR AAMs/ CCMs.

 

[Bleh]

F-16 - 18 seconds for 360 degrees. So STR is 360/18 = 20 degrees per second

Now when did F-16 achieve that feat?.. Share some.
I've seen it hold 20 degree/sec for 270° turns at best.

Tejas has displayed 18-19 degree/sec for 270° turn, at the Lima airshow. Watch... 270° in exactly 15sec (that too part of a full 360° loop, followed by another 270° turn in next 15sec)

I feel the Light fighters like Tejas or Jf-17 won't left with enough gas to sustain gun-fights likes these after executive evasive maneuvers against BVR AAMs/ CCMs.

Maybe during a CAP from forward base... I mean a Mig-21 just did exactly that, and not only did tgat thing have 2/3rd the range but 2/3rd sized drop-tanks too.

 

[patriots]

These WVR-Gun fights are pure demonstration of kinematic performance of fighters. That's why such exercises are still followed in mock fight/DACTs to explore the potential of jets & fine tuning of tactics in extreme dog-fight.

In real world, perhaps we will never have such encounters (IMO), the real fight will start at BVR and end with last of the CCMs being fired. I feel the Light fighters like Tejas or Jf-17 won't left with enough gas to sustain gun-fights likes these after executive evasive maneuvers against BVR AAMs/ CCMs.

Who knows
Recently we saw a wvr fight between mig21 bis and f16. In Feb 27

 

[Super lca]

These WVR-Gun fights are pure demonstration of kinematic performance of fighters. That's why such exercises are still followed in mock fight/DACTs to explore the potential of jets & fine tuning of tactics in extreme dog-fight.

In real world, perhaps we will never have such encounters (IMO), the real fight will start at BVR and end with last of the CCMs being fired. I feel the Light fighters like Tejas or Jf-17 won't left with enough gas to sustain gun-fights likes these after executive evasive maneuvers against BVR AAMs/ CCMs.

Do you expect tejas to invade enemy territory?A big no we have rafale and sukhois for that but tejas will be very useful while defending our airspace during enemy intrusion

 

[piKacHHu]

Who knows
Recently we saw a wvr fight between mig21 bis and f16. In Feb 27

I am talking about WVR Gun fights; Not WVR+CCM or "FOX-2" engagement that happened Post- Balakot between MIG 21 & F-16. Visuals of the Mig wreckage indicated that it has plenty of arsenal left even after engaging one F-16 with R-73. Indeed, you can shoot Surveillance balloons & drones using Gun which is a much cheaper option than firing an expensive missile. (Like MKI did in Rajasthan a couple of years back)

Americans/Westerners don't like to fight dirty hence they focus heavily on BVR aspect. The result of which is leading to development of superior BVR AAMs like AIM 120, Meteor etc w.r.t their Soviet counterparts.

 

[Super lca]

I am talking about WVR Gun fights; Not WVR+CCM or "FOX-2" engagement that happened Post- Balakot between MIG 21 & F-16. Visuals of the Mig wreckage indicated that it has plenty of arsenal left even after engaging one F-16 with R-73. Indeed, you can shoot Surveillance balloons & drones using Gun which is a much cheaper option than firing an expensive missile. (Like MKI did in Rajasthan a couple of years back)

Americans/Westerners don't like to fight dirty hence they focus heavily on BVR aspect. The result of which is leading to development of superior BVR AAMs like AIM 120, Meteor etc w.r.t their Soviet counterparts.

Yeah after getting their ass pounded in the Vietnam war by mig 21s Americans were too pessimistic about wvr fights so they rushed for f15s and stealth platforms

 

[piKacHHu]

Do you expect tejas to invade enemy territory?A big no we have rafale and sukhois for that but tejas will be very useful while defending our airspace during enemy intrusion

Why not ?? I would like to exploit its claimed "Low Electronic & Visual Observability" for disabling enemy AADs located near the border. And who knows while executing CAPs, you end up chasing the hostile jet well inside their border. By limiting its role as Sentry aircraft meant for protecting bases only, we are seriously wasting resources when we could deploy better SAMs to defend it with half of the cost.

 

[Super lca]

Why not ?? I would like to exploit its claimed "Low Electronic & Visual Observability" for disabling enemy AADs located near the border. And who knows while executing CAPs, you end up chasing the hostile jet well inside their border. By limiting its role as Sentry aircraft meant for protecting bases only, we are seriously wasting resources when we could deploy better SAMs to defend it with half of the cost.

Tejas is very capable for balakot like airstrikes but not for bombing Islamabad after all it's an lca

 

[Bleh]

I am talking about WVR Gun fights; Not WVR+CCM or "FOX-2" engagement that happened Post- Balakot between MIG 21 & F-16.

That fight lasted seconds. And I noticed WC Varthaman's Mig-21 crashed with its tanks attached... that means he didn't do any hard maneuvers! Most likely one F-16 acted as bait & its wingman shot him down.

If the FC-1 is dropping flares, or F-16 is in going in a vertical climb then the cannon is a good option if range-plane-lead is there.

Tejas is very capable for balakot like airstrikes but not for bombing Islamabad after all it's an lca

It's range with 3 LGBs & 2 1360lts is near 1000km... And I'm not even including Brahmos.

Think before blurting out these stuff.

 

[piKacHHu]

Tejas is very capable for balakot like airstrikes but not for bombing Islamabad

That's what I meant; By the way, Islamabad is not that far if you consider lateral distance from IB. Again, I agree that it may not be used for Deeper Strikes. But even with that, it fulfills its role much more than expected for a fighter meant for replacing ageing Mig-21s.

 

[HawkisRight]

That fight lasted seconds. And I noticed WC Varthaman's Mig-21 crashed with its tanks attached... that means he didn't do any hard maneuvers! Most likely one F-16 acted as bait & its wingman shot him down.

If the FC-1 is dropping flares, or F-16 is in going in a vertical climb then the cannon is a good option if range-plane-lead is there.

It's range with 3 LGBs & 2 1360lts is near 1000km... And I'm not even including Brahmos.

Think before blurting out these stuff.

I know abhinandan episode is old now but I m still curious what went wrong as there is no official info from iaf? Is pravin sawnhey right about porks hacking into Abhi's comms? Do u hav knowledge on that

 

[Bleh]

At this config Mark1/A can drop that LGB even at Gwadar port & another with a drop tank in centreline is capable of escorting it there.

I am sure abhinandan episode is old now but I m still curious what went wrong as there is no official info from iaf? Is pravin sawnhey right about porks hacking into Abhi's comms

Jamming a Mig-21 is easy.

What bothers me is why wasn't his tanks punched?.. Why didn't he laubch with R-77 before merging?
With still no concrete evidence, if those photos/footages of multiple parachutes were not there I wouldn't believe that the F-16s was actually shot down. Jets can limp back to base after a hit.

 

[patriots]

View attachment 50025
At this config Mark1/A can drop that LGB even at Gwadar port & another with a drop tank in centreline is capable of escorting it there.

Jamming a Mig-21 is easy.

What bothers me is why wasn't his tanks punched?.. Why didn't he laubch with R-77 before merging?
With still no concrete evidence, if those photos/footages of multiple parachutes were not there I wouldn't believe that the F-16s was actually shot down. Jets can limp back to base after a hit.

Definitely
But I am still surprised ,why he didn't drop drop tanks ,again why no r77 fired....may be the truth will come some day

 

[Super lca]

View attachment 50025
At this config Mark1/A can drop that LGB even at Gwadar port & another with a drop tank in centreline is capable of escorting it there.

Jamming a Mig-21 is easy.

What bothers me is why wasn't his tanks punched?.. Why didn't he laubch with R-77 before merging?
With still no concrete evidence, if those photos/footages of multiple parachutes were not there I wouldn't believe that the F-16s was actually shot down. Jets can limp back to base after a hit.

Mig 21 bis has a radar of range 50km so it probably couldn't detect the f16s

 

[Super lca]

That fight lasted seconds. And I noticed WC Varthaman's Mig-21 crashed with its tanks attached... that means he didn't do any hard maneuvers! Most likely one F-16 acted as bait & its wingman shot him down.

If the FC-1 is dropping flares, or F-16 is in going in a vertical climb then the cannon is a good option if range-plane-lead is there.

It's range with 3 LGBs & 2 1360lts is near 1000km... And I'm not even including Brahmos.

Think before blurting out these stuff.

Do you think with that amount of load(droptanks,lgb,ccm,bvr) it would be maneuverable enough?Don't you understand that paf f16s in air superiority mode will resist the intruding tejas formation?That's why we require rafales and sukhois that could carry a lot of payload without significant loss in agility

 

[Bleh]

Mig 21 bis has a radar of range 50km so it probably couldn't detect the f16s

Well they got in WVR, so should have detected it at some range. Also so I learnt Rules of Engagement didn't allow use of BVR during peacetime... Porks broke it.

That's why we require rafales and sukhois that could carry a lot of payload without significant loss in agility

That's where you are mistaking!.. Rafales & Sukhois aren't maneuverable with "a lot of payload". With same payload as Tejas, ie not max for them they'll still become too sluggish to dogfight... can only knotch & fire BVRs.
That's the whole reason world is looking at standoff weapons, glide bombs, air-launched cruise missiles etc.


Whatever aircraft is carrying the bomb load will have to be escorted by another squadron with only A2A missiles & droptanks, that'll intercept the enemy or keep them engaged. Only difference between multiroles vs ground attacks is that the former can jettison their payload & get into dogfight with CCMs.
Maybe unmanned wingmans can help in future.

 

[Karthi]

Possible Combat Scenarios between LCA and JF 17.

Based on the type of missions these Multirole fighters can perform ,the Author have assumed possible Combat Scenarios of both. Taking into consideration the Flight Characteristics of LCA mk1 and JF...

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Possible Combat Scenarios between LCA & Tejas