LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[rohit b3]

Only answering to remove some wild misconceptions.
First of all, unlike what some people on Quora want to believe, Tejas is not designed for dogfight, nor for pure Air Combat. The F-16 has an excellent Air combat record of 76 kills – 1 loss, while Tejas is not yet ‘fully operational’, let alone being battle tested.
It’s one thing to ‘look good on paper’, but another to be ‘good in the Air’.
A dogfight is a very rare event with uncertain results. The one who gets the First-shot is likely to be the winner.

In a WVR combat:

Tejas ‘may’ have better instantaneous turn rates due to Delta wing config. However, it’ll significantly bleed energy (speed), and have poor sustained turn rates. Further, it is currently having a weaker engine & lower Thrust/Weight ratio (<1 or barely ~1 with combat load) – resulting in poor performance in close Air combat.
On the other hand, F-16 is a “pure energy” dogfighter. It’ll bleed less energy & have better sustained Turn rates. Further, it’s having much higher Thrust/Weight ratio & greater range on internal fuel – resulting in greater endurance. So not only will it be retaining energy but can also sustain the fight much longer – something Tejas can’t do. (Also F-16 has a +9g airframe compared to +7–8 g limits for Tejas.)

Although modern WVR combat is fought by the HOBS (off-boresight) missiles. Both Tejas & F-16 Block 50/52+ have HMD & HOBS armament. The F-16 has a slight advantage of having better HOBS missile: AIM-9 with 90° off-boresight capability compared to 60° in R-73 (& lack of active development) in Tejas.

However, as said before, the outcome of a close-WVR combat is unpredictable and for this reason, it’s almost non-existing from decades. Today most of the combat takes place BVR.


BVR Combat


Let’s remove some miss-conceptions first.
“Tejas will have first-look on F-16 because it has smaller RCS”

First of all, we don’t have any valid data on Tejas’s RCS and the RCS doesn’t depend purely on the size or composites, there are a lot of factors – neither is designed as a LO aircraft. Secondly the RCS-difference between the two is in-significant and with a combat (external) load, the RCS difference will be negligible.

Interesting to note that the F-16 is usually more ‘clean’ with combat load than Tejas due to tactical importance of carrying external fuel tanks for Tejas. (F-16 has sufficient range with internal fuel + Conformal Fuel Tanks if needed)


“ELTA 2052 AESA radar on board Tejas will pick up F 16 before it can detect Tejas”
This is another assumption without any source to back it up. It’s important to remember that Teja’s radome is smaller than that of F-16’s – a significant design limitation. And the EL/M-2052 radar is mostly designed for F-15 like aircraft (with bigger radome) – so the marketed capabilities are based on radars for those aircraft, not the one for smaller aircraft like Tejas. The EL/M-2052 for Tejas is likely having ~300–500 T/R modules (based on export data of the radar & the fact that Teja’s small radome can’t accommodate larger T/R modules).

Thus, despite being AESA, such low T/R module count is unlikely to give any “significant” superior detection over a larger MSA radar (although it may have certain performance advantage but nothing ‘too big’). The upgraded APG-68v(9) radar in F-16 Block 50/52+ is quite powerful and is likely to have greater (or at worst similar) range than Teja’s radar.

F-16 Block 52+ is also having better RWR, ECMs/EW capabilities and a distinct advantage of F-16 in BVR combat is again it’s armament – AIM-120D it has a substantially bigger engagement envelop: 160 km+ effective range compared to R-77’s max. range of <110 km for Tejas, combined with better avionics (seeker, ECCMs), datalinks & navigation.

Irrespective of who detects the other first, F-16 has the advantage of “First-shot” – and sometimes, that’s all you need.

The LCA Tejas was never designed nor intended to compete with an Air Superiority fighter like F-16, nor is it capable of. It has a different role & no one except some people on the internet, expect it to fight F-16.

Someone Answered this in Quora , This is exactly what I want to tell,9 0 percentage I m agreeing with him .

F16 AN/APG-68 V9 radar has a range up to 296 km. Range for 5m2 aerial targets is 105 km, some sources says 130-150km vs 5m/s

F16 primary AAMs

AIM-9 L Range: 1.0 to 35.4 km, AIM-120C-7- range 105 Km.

EW Systems.

ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods.


ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems.

Both EW systems are capable


TEJAS.

Air-to-air missiles:
Astra
I Derby Not Yet
R-73
ASRAAM expected


EL/M-2052 AESA for Mk1A only Range 290 Km. 150 Km for 1or 2 M2 RCS (not Sure )

Mk1 uses ELM 2032 Range - 150KM???Nit sure

UTTAM : 2m2 150 kilometers

EW :- Elta 8200 External Jamming pod

RCS.

Tejas 0.5 without Weapons , with Weapons 2.5 to 3.5 , AAM has typically 0.1 M2 RCS , Carrying 8 Missiles Increases RCS, but how much ???

RCS of F16 C 50/52 - 1.2 M2 With external Weapons ?? Possibly 4-4.5

Note:- most of the Figures are recollected from my memory so need to check

Thats a very old quora answer. lol

 

[another_armchair]

Then don't join the wagon

What ever problems are there with LCA is there , every fighter has its own set of problems . No fighter is perfect .

But the ownership of the end-user matters and makes the real difference to what extent any said fighter can become potent .

During IAF trials F16 failed in many requirements , some were shortcomings in kinematic performance yet it is considered best by many , why ? because ownership of end user and inturn resulting favorable perception. Yet a mig 21 shot down a F16 . Food for thought.

Mig-21 + R-73

 

[Karthi]

Then don't join the wagon

What ever problems are there with LCA is there , every fighter has its own set of problems . No fighter is perfect .

But the ownership of the end-user matters and makes the real difference to what extent any said fighter can become potent .

During IAF trials F16 failed in many requirements , some were shortcomings in kinematic performance yet it is considered best by many , why ? because ownership of end user and inturn resulting favorable perception. Yet a mig 21 shot down a F16 . Food for thought.

J10 or F16 intruded into Indian airspace , which Aircraft will you choose, why.

Another one a two front war most of our assets are destroyed , MKI s , Mirage etc , The only available option is Tejas cos we can manufacture it without anyones mercy , are you confident enough to use MK1 and win a war

 

[Karthi]

Here if I say Mk1 can defeat both JF , F16 and J10 then everyone is happy . If I criticize MK1 then I m idiot , Cancel MK1A .

Go for another 54 Rafale as a stop gap measure , 36 MK1A just to keep the production , upgrade MK1 to MK1A .

Fill IAF with ORCA and MWF plus AMCA .

 

[piKacHHu]

Hey bro do you really believe F16 never face MK1 in real world , if there is any chance in the world then it is between India Pak dual . What if you ever forced to face against F26 with Tejas Then would you tell Both are different class so no battle .

Scenario 1:

BVR Fight: Pair of F-16 v/s Tejas Mk1A with AWACS support

In this case, both Tejas and F-16 would have situational awareness with respect to each other. Hence, both the aircraft will try to get nearer to their target for maximizing chances of hitting with BVR AAM. Now, let's say both F-16 engages Tejas first AIM 120C-5/C-7, FOX-3 and the Tejas is forced to make evasive maneuvers which is typically involves diving to low altitudes for sucking out energy of the chasing AAM (Higher drag due dense air). Here, the kinematic performance will come into picture; if Tejas is able to maintain sufficient speed at lower altitude with full afterburner, it will live to fight again.

In the meantime, Tejas wingman also engages the F-16 with Derby-ER. Here, the F-16 will have some advantages w.r.t to Tejas in evasive maneuvers; i.e. Better Maximum speed around Mach 2, better turning rates by virtue of its airframe (9+ Gees qualified) and aerodynamics. Moreover, it has more gas to sustain fight longer.
Comparison of Derby-ER & AIM 120 C versions is speculated; however the little advantage of Derby-ER w.r.t AMRAAM could be off-set by better kinematic performance by the F-16.

In this scenario, I feel F-16 will have slight edge.

Caveat with respect to RCS: One may claim that for active seeker AAM, the lower RCS may aid in dodging the missile but typically evasive maneuvers involve turning and diving which expose much of its airframe for detection. Given the Tejas is not an all-aspect stealthy aircraft, lower frontal RCS doesn't play much role.


Scenario 2:

BVR Fight: Pair of F-16 v/s Tejas Mk1A without AWACS support

In this case, the fight will be based on onboard sensors alone. Tejas can ambush the F-16s by laying low and sneaking around with passively sniffing for emissions. Here, lower RCS of Tejas will come handy for the combat provided it has comparable passive sensors & RWRs. Now, if it gets close enough to F-16s without giving enough time for evasive action, like the same way Mig 21 Bison did, then you may get the desired victory. But here is the caveat, if the same thing is done with Tejas, it also doesn't stand a chance in surviving such ambush.

So, it could be a 50:50 with slight edge to Tejas (provided its RCS is significantly lower than the F-16).

Scenario 3 :

WVR with CCM

Both F-16 and Tejas are equipped with HMDS + CCM combo; lower visual profile can play some role for Tejas advantage; but superior kinematic performance + Counter measures can make the fight even in this case. The CAG/IAF had flagged some issues in CMDS of Tejas; so I assume that in counter-measure part, Tejas will have inferior performance w.r.t F-16. Again, this will result into an even fight much dependent on pilots skill with slight edge to F-16.

I am not considering WVR gun-fight as I feel it will never ever happen !

Go for another 54 Rafale as a stop gap measure , 36 MK1A just to keep the production , upgrade MK1 to MK1A .

Agree to the Rafale part. 83 Mk1A is a good number to keep the assembly line running assuming delays in MWF and development of ecosystem of MSMEs for supply of air-worthy components which will aid in MWF, AMCA production.

 

[aerokan]

Here if I say Mk1 can defeat both JF , F16 and J10 then everyone is happy . If I criticize MK1 then I m idiot , Cancel MK1A .

Go for another 54 Rafale as a stop gap measure , 36 MK1A just to keep the production , upgrade MK1 to MK1A .

Fill IAF with ORCA and MWF plus AMCA .

Criticizing is needed absolutely but you have to understand one thing first. Two front war may or may not happen. There is a 50% chance that we will win or lose if it happens. But there is a 100% chance to lose by bankrupting the IAF and the country by filling up with expensive things we cannot afford like lots of twin engine jets like ORCA and RAFALE and AMCA without having enough single engine ones.

 

[JBH22]

Dog fight will continue despite all hype about it being over. Feb 2019 shows that once group formations merge it's a giant fireball. Mano y mano

 

[Assassin 2.0]

With 300+ ALH Dhruv helicopters, it is undoubtedly a workhorse of the services. Further developments like LCH and LUH would also get inducted into services in the near future.

Varying views are part of the evolution of the huge indigenous industry of military helicopters.
( since people were talking about issue's with dhruv i thought to post this. Btw take word's of ex airforce pilots with pinch of salt many of them are currently employed by Boeing LM and other foreign companies)

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Air combat operations are not one to one wrestling matches

Let me give you a " real life " example

Remember the red flag exercise ?

Su30mki teamed up with bisons to run tactics in order to exploit the potential of both the platforms and cover for each other at the same time . It's the tactics which play a major role , how you exploit your strong points and put yourself in a position where your strong points negates the advantage of the hostiles.

Now replace bison with LCA MK1A , bison doesn't even compare to LCA MK1A .

Do you think it is by accident that most of the LCA pilots are ex bison and Su30mki pilots. Few are from TACDE itself . I hope you realise what it means.

Bisons in red flag...?...I think its cope india you are referring to....

 

[Karthi]

LCA-Tejas hydraulic filters

 

[Karthi]

@Bleh Tejas With LGBs

 

[Suryavanshi]

View attachment 50005

@Bleh Tejas With LGBs

Is that the sudarshan LGB?

 

[kstriya]

With 300+ ALH Dhruv helicopters, it is undoubtedly a workhorse of the services. Further developments like LCH and LUH would also get inducted into services in the near future.

Varying views are part of the evolution of the huge indigenous industry of military helicopters.
( since people were talking about issue's with dhruv i thought to post this. Btw take word's of ex airforce pilots with pinch of salt many of them are currently employed by Boeing LM and other foreign companies)

As per Navy requirement, they need a bit smaller Form factor of ALH for eg. ALH can carry 14 fully equipped soldiers and panther( if I am correct selected by navy or contender) can carry 12 Needs ASW capability which I think bith do have but ALH has to to be tested.. why the hell HAL cannot come up with a smaller from factor of the ALH to fulfill navy’s requirement

 

[patriots]

Here if I say Mk1 can defeat both JF , F16 and J10 then everyone is happy . If I criticize MK1 then I m idiot , Cancel MK1A .

Go for another 54 Rafale as a stop gap measure , 36 MK1A just to keep the production , upgrade MK1 to MK1A .

Fill IAF with ORCA and MWF plus AMCA .

No we are here for discussion..........
Bdw @Bleh bro can you make comparison video of both jf17 and lca Tejas ...... minimum radius turn ....etc
Comparison means .....visual comparison
Just compare lca Tejas and jf17 from their flying display.....with time count
If any body will do....will be a happy man

 

[Super lca]

No we are here for discussion..........
Bdw @Bleh bro can you make comparison video of both jf17 and lca Tejas ...... minimum radius turn ....etc
Comparison means .....visual comparison
Just compare lca Tejas and jf17 from their flying display.....with time count
If any body will do....will be a happy man

Is @Bleh a youtuber or something?

 

[Bleh]

Is that the sudarshan LGB?

No.

Bdw @Bleh bro can you make comparison video of both jf17 and lca Tejas ...... minimum radius turn ....etc

No. (Nobody knows bollocks about the actual details for both. Someone who have played FC-1 in DCS would know more.)

Is @Bleh a youtuber or something?

No. Cant edit video nor animate. Just photos & drawings.

@Bleh Tejas With LGBs

I know it can carry LGB, but only FOC is certified to carry LGBs on central pylons as well (too long for tandem though).

However, they only seem to carry 1000lb ones. Don't think SPICE-2000 is mated with Tejas.

 

[piKacHHu]

Just compare lca Tejas and jf17 from their flying display.....with time count
If any body will do....will be a happy man

Even if Tejas matches 80% kinematic performance as shown in the DCS simulation video, it will thrash the "Jeff" in WVR-Gun fight convincingly. The Mirage had a 4:1 kill ratio in this fight AFAIK.


Similarly, WVR + CCM will also give good result in favor of Tejas due to its better pitch control & AoA. In BVR, it will be a balanced fight with advantage to Tejas due to "Low" RCS and considering similar BVR arsenal (PL-10/SD-10 is copy of Derby with superior kinematic performance as claimed; in fact in DCS, it gives better performance than AMRAAM 120C5)

 

[Bleh]

Even if Tejas matches 80% kinematic performance as shown in the DCS simulation video, it will thrash the "Jeff" in WVR-Gun fight convincingly. The Mirage had a 4:1 kill ratio in this fight AFAIK.


Similarly, WVR + CCM will also give good result in favor of Tejas due to its better pitch control & AoA. In BVR, it will be a balanced fight with advantage to Tejas due to "Low" RCS and considering similar BVR arsenal (PL-10/SD-10 is copy of Derby with superior kinematic performance as claimed; in fact in DCS, it gives better performance than AMRAAM 120C5)

Interesting comment by the gamer.

Growling Sidewinder
Ok so if you bought the JF-17 don't be disappointed that you can't win fights up close. Just keep your speed high in the 350-400 range and you should do pretty good, just remember that at slow speeds the JF-17 turns into a sack of potatoes, play to your strengths and not to the enemies, and you will win. Goodluck

Basically everything I said in my last post. <15°/sec
But what he missed to say is the how easily FC-1 in turns into a sack of potatoes... Lol.How bad does the engineering have to be for a delta-wing like Tejas to seek for a draggy turnfight against a conventional!!!


Edit: another gem “Once he gets behind me, we’re gonna see how easy it is to get him off...”

 

[piKacHHu]

Interesting comment by the gamer.


Basically everything I said in my last post. <15°/sec
But what he missed to say is the how easily FC-1 in turns into a sack of potatoes... Lol.How bad does the engineering have to be for a delta-wing like Tejas to seek for a draggy turnfight against a conventional!!!

These are the bad outcomes of Chinese efforts for turning a Mig 21 into omni-role fighter like Rafale. The problem got further aggravated by using an under-powered engine RD-33; so while F-16s with continuous engine improvement can deliver the performance even in Block 70+ variants, Jeff on the other hand will perennially suffer from engine trouble till China come up with their own reliable and powerful engine.

The only good part in JF-17 is its DSI intake. Don't know about its performance though but the Chinese are extensively using it in their 5th Gen program.

 

[patriots]

No.

No. (Nobody knows bollocks about the actual details for both. Someone who have played FC-1 in DCS would know more.)

No. Cant edit video nor animate. Just photos & drawings.
View attachment 50018
I know it can carry LGB, but only FOC is certified to carry LGBs on central pylons as well (too long for tandem though).

However, they only seem to carry 1000lb ones. Don't think SPICE-2000 is mated with Tejas.
View attachment 50019

Hope this helps....I want video of this type

You can compare their performance from flying display...by playing at the same time