LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[lcafanboy]

Supersonic Omni Role Trainer...

 

[Bleh]

 

[WolfPack86]

Push for indigenous defence projects.

 

[lcafanboy]

Savings from delayed foreign deals to push indigenous projects - The Economic Times

Savings from delayed foreign deals to push indigenous projects

Source said that foreign equipment manufacturers are being approached to understand which programmes are likely to see delayed deliveries and the way forward would be to defer payments for late deliveries, without invoking the penalty clause.

m.economictimes.com

Bye bye imported weapons. MMRCA 2 Ahem??..

 

[BangaliBabu]

Savings from delayed foreign deals to push indigenous projects - The Economic Times

Savings from delayed foreign deals to push indigenous projects

Source said that foreign equipment manufacturers are being approached to understand which programmes are likely to see delayed deliveries and the way forward would be to defer payments for late deliveries, without invoking the penalty clause.

m.economictimes.com

Bye bye imported weapons. MMRCA 2 Ahem??..

not so early.....

 

[Bleh]

Push for indigenous defence projects.

Savings from delayed foreign deals to push indigenous projects - The Economic Times

Savings from delayed foreign deals to push indigenous projects

Source said that foreign equipment manufacturers are being approached to understand which programmes are likely to see delayed deliveries and the way forward would be to defer payments for late deliveries, without invoking the penalty clause.

m.economictimes.com

Bye bye imported weapons. MMRCA 2 Ahem??..

Here have a cookie you two.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Some comments by Indranil Roy of BRF from the same video.

Man, this cranked delta inverse on Tejas really puzzled me too.

Now, I am coming to realize it was done so that air does not leave in low speeds, but how it doesn't affect in supersonic speed is still for me in the works.

Anybody can help? Because it must create drag at supersonic speed.... I mean to ask the shape of the wing at wingroot is less angled but why? Or the speed of the aircraft was not that much high so no matter.

But then mig-31 the legendary plane also have straight inlets at wing root but still achieve Mach three.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

The story of LCA tejas.

 

[Defcon 1]

The story of LCA tejas.

Sir they should at least match the committed speed of 8 per annum. Low orders responsible for that delay as well?

 

[Tridev123]

Sir they should at least match the committed speed of 8 per annum. Low orders responsible for that delay as well?

I agree, it is frustrating. Even Pakistan produces more JF17 per year. We have the capability to ramp up production but deliberately going in slow motion.
I would like somebody to provide figures on Mig21 production rate when HAL was manufacturing it. I am sure it must have been at least 24 per year.
Coming to the LCA, if GTRE gives us an usable, reliable Kaveri engine with power > 85 kn then HAL will at least produce 24 units a year.
I believe India does not want to be overly dependent on US engines what with the reputation of the US government to impose sanctions on every Congressman or Senators whims and fancies.
The other engine options strategically acceptable are Russian and French.
Probably the LCA should have been designed around one of these.
The Americans do not want India to become self sufficient in high performance turbofan jet engines.
Russian jet engines though functional are not energy efficient and maintenance friendly.
The French have refused to provide hot core engine technology.
What options do we have?. An indigenous working jet engine is the only viable long-term alternative.
Will GTRE deliver.

 

[abhay rajput]

I agree, it is frustrating. Even Pakistan produces more JF17 per year. We have the capability to ramp up production but deliberately going in slow motion.
I would like somebody to provide figures on Mig21 production rate when HAL was manufacturing it. I am sure it must have been at least 24 per year.
Coming to the LCA, if GTRE gives us an usable, reliable Kaveri engine with power > 85 kn then HAL will at least produce 24 units a year.
I believe India does not want to be overly dependent on US engines what with the reputation of the US government to impose sanctions on every Congressman or Senators whims and fancies.
The other engine options strategically acceptable are Russian and French.
Probably the LCA should have been designed around one of these.
The Americans do not want India to become self sufficient in high performance turbofan jet engines.
Russian jet engines though functional are not energy efficient and maintenance friendly.
The French have refused to provide hot core engine technology.
What options do we have?. An indigenous working jet engine is the only viable long-term alternative.
Will GTRE deliver.

Money is the only solution . France will give there hot core technology in favour of billions of dollars + additional defence contracts . Same goes with Russia too albeit less amount of money. USA clearly denied any involvement whatsoever . Lastly DRDO can also build it but it requires dedicated test aircrafts and at least few billions of dollars. But that's not gonna happen. So wait for at least 10-15 years more.

 

[Tridev123]

Money is the only solution . France will give there hot core technology in favour of billions of dollars + additional defence contracts . Same goes with Russia too albeit less amount of money. USA clearly denied any involvement whatsoever . Lastly DRDO can also build it but it requires dedicated test aircrafts and at least few billions of dollars. But that's not gonna happen. So wait for at least 10-15 years more.

Increasing Tejas production is not a very hard task. If HAL could produce minimum 24 Mig21/year and can currently produce 12 Su30mki/year there is no major similar to technical challenge in producing even 24 LCA. The Su30mki is a much bigger plane and probably more difficult to build than the Tejas. The truth is that the Government does not want to increase production without an indigenous engine.

The original plan for the LCA program was to use American GE404 engines for the prototypes and possibly initial series production and then using our own Kaveri GTX engines to power the mass production planes. This was not a wrong approach as we had confidence that the Kaveri engine will mature and be available in the required time frame. There was no plan to build >200 Tejas fighters using the US GE404 engines. This was similar to the development plan for the French Rafale fighter. The Rafale used US engines in the prototypes to validate the design and software (FCS) and later on the main production models used their indigenous M88 engines. India wanted to follow this path.

But unfortunately Kaveri engine development by the GTRE had stalled and there was no indigenous engine available. So we are stuck with using American engines for the entire production run of mk1and mk1a. This has its own risks as the US is not a reliable supplier and we may be arm twisted in the future. I hope India can instead arm twist the US to get jet engine technology as everybody knows that without India the US cannot take on China in Asia. The Pakistanis gained nuclear bomb technology by arm twisting the US. The US wanted Pakistani support to fight the Soviet Red Army in Afghanistan and hence turned a blind eye to A. Q. Khan smuggling in nuclear technology.

We would welcome it if the French have indeed agreed to give us hot engine technology. Money should not be a problem as we have foreign exchange reserves nearing 500 billion US dollars. But will they really deliver?. I hope we are not being taken up the garden path. Promising and actually delivering on the promise are two different things. If indeed they are sincere then our Government should grab this opportunity and not be short sighted. A few billions are OK. We will be spending much more in foreign exchange importing jet engines over the next few decades.

Right now the outlook for developing our own jet engine is not too rosy.

 

[Bleh]

Dont think this was shared before on SPORT.

The truth is that the Government does not want to increase production without an indigenous engine.

Indigenous engine is not a prime requirement for an aircraft being bought in limited numbers. And there is chatter from serious sources on possible F414 ToT like Gripen, the one to be used in large number between 300 (MWF & earlyAMCA) to 500+ (F-18/TEDBF).

 

[Tridev123]

Dont think this was shared before on SPORT.

Indigenous engine is not a prime requirement for an aircraft being bought in limited numbers. And there is chatter from serious sources on possible F414 ToT like Gripen, the one to be used in large number between 300 (MWF & earlyAMCA) to 500+ (F-18/TEDBF).

We have produced jet engines under license from Russia for long and imported engines from the West. Even 50 years after independence do we still want to import jet engines for another 50 years. Firstly it a question of cost and outgo of foreign exchange. Secondly it reflects on our technological capability and strategic independence. In times of war relying on others to supply jet engines is inadvisable. Countries have been sanctioned and embargoed on various grounds.

The LCA program was visualised as a replacement for the Mig21(about 275 planes). This is by no means a small order. As you are aware a fighter plane requires about 3 engines over its lifetime(appx). So multiply 275 * 3, almost 850 engines. This is a very big requirement. A lot of Mig21's have been retired but there is still a requirement for about 250 single engine interceptors. They have their own utility and cannot be replaced by more expensive twin engine planes.

I would think that there is a broad consensus in India on the need for an indigenous turbofan fighter engine. We may not be able to develop a F35 fighter jet engine but even a > 80 kn jet engine is a step forward. Just like how we progressed in aircraft design from the LCA mk1 to Mwf to Tedbf to Orca and Amca, we will develop the baseline Kaveri or its successor into better performance jet engines.

Advanced countries will never want us to become self dependent in jet engine technology as they will lose a large market. Also in times of war it would be foolish to depend on the goodwill of others to supply us with the engines for our fighter planes.

I would welcome any step by the US to share advanced aero engine technologies. But again the vital question - will we get the hot core engine technology. I very seriously doubt it. Sweden still cannot develop new high performance core engines because they don't have the materials technology needed for the same. Its similar to us producing AL31F engines under license from Russia. If Russia stops supplying the engine components production in HAL will grind to a halt.

We need to master the entire production process from design to materials etc. We should be in a position to independently manufacture the entire engine. That is the long term objective. Massive investment in various areas is needed to build up our knowledge base. We will reach there in due time but a little help from friendly countries can shorten the total time required.

I am not against the US or using American engines for our fighters but our wish to have indigenous engines is not anti Americanism. Imported engines can only be for the short term. If we managed to develop nuclear technology and weapons we can also do it for aero engines. It is only a matter of time. But our efforts must be sincere.

 

[Karthi]

We have produced jet engines under license from Russia for long and imported engines from the West. Even 50 years after independence do we still want to import jet engines for another 50 years. Firstly it a question of cost and outgo of foreign exchange. Secondly it reflects on our technological capability and strategic independence. In times of war relying on others to supply jet engines is inadvisable. Countries have been sanctioned and embargoed on various grounds.

The LCA program was visualised as a replacement for the Mig21(about 275 planes). This is by no means a small order. As you are aware a fighter plane requires about 3 engines over its lifetime(appx). So multiply 275 * 3, almost 850 engines. This is a very big requirement. A lot of Mig21's have been retired but there is still a requirement for about 250 single engine interceptors. They have their own utility and cannot be replaced by more expensive twin engine planes.

I would think that there is a broad consensus in India on the need for an indigenous turbofan fighter engine. We may not be able to develop a F35 fighter jet engine but even a > 80 kn jet engine is a step forward. Just like how we progressed in aircraft design from the LCA mk1 to Mwf to Tedbf to Orca and Amca, we will develop the baseline Kaveri or its successor into better performance jet engines.

Advanced countries will never want us to become self dependent in jet engine technology as they will lose a large market. Also in times of war it would be foolish to depend on the goodwill of others to supply us with the engines for our fighter planes.

I would welcome any step by the US to share advanced aero engine technologies. But again the vital question - will we get the hot core engine technology. I very seriously doubt it. Sweden still cannot develop new high performance core engines because they don't have the materials technology needed for the same. Its similar to us producing AL31F engines under license from Russia. If Russia stops supplying the engine components production in HAL will grind to a halt.

We need to master the entire production process from design to materials etc. We should be in a position to independently manufacture the entire engine. That is the long term objective. Massive investment in various areas is needed to build up our knowledge base. We will reach there in due time but a little help from friendly countries can shorten the total time required.

I am not against the US or using American engines for our fighters but our wish to have indigenous engines is not anti Americanism. Imported engines can only be for the short term. If we managed to develop nuclear technology and weapons we can also do it for aero engines. It is only a matter of time. But our efforts must be sincere.

The very first thing we need is to establish Jet engine testing facilities . It only second Modi government initiated some kind of Testing facility upto 130KN. How lazy , irresponsible and idiots we are , tried to develop A variable cycle , afterburning Jet engine Of 90KN without a proper testing facility in the country . The basic is work culture

 

[Bleh]

The LCA program was visualised as a replacement for the Mig21(about 275 planes). This is by no means a small order. As you are aware a fighter plane requires about 3 engines over its lifetime(appx). So multiply 275 * 3, almost 850 engines. This is a very big requirement. A lot of Mig21's have been retired but there is still a requirement for about 250 single engine interceptors. They have their own utility and cannot be replaced by more expensive twin engine planes.

I would think that there is a broad consensus in India on the need for an indigenous turbofan fighter engine. We may not be able to develop a F35 fighter jet engine but even a > 80 kn jet engine is a step forward. Just like how we progressed in aircraft design from the LCA mk1 to Mwf to Tedbf to Orca and Amca, we will develop the baseline Kaveri or its successor into better performance jet engines.

Advanced countries will never want us to become self dependent in jet engine technology as they will lose a large market. Also in times of war it would be foolish to depend on the goodwill of others to supply us with the engines for our fighter planes.

I would welcome any step by the US to share advanced aero engine technologies. But again the vital question - will we get the hot core engine technology. I very seriously doubt it. Sweden still cannot develop new high performance core engines because they don't have the materials technology needed for the same. Its similar to us producing AL31F engines under license from Russia. If Russia stops supplying the engine components production in HAL will grind to a halt.

We need to master the entire production process from design to materials etc. We should be in a position to independently manufacture the entire engine. That is the long term objective. Massive investment in various areas is needed to build up our knowledge base. We will reach there in due time but a little help from friendly countries can shorten the total time required.

I am not against the US or using American engines for our fighters but our wish to have indigenous engines is not anti Americanism. Imported engines can only be for the short term. If we managed to develop nuclear technology and weapons we can also do it for aero engines. It is only a matter of time. But our efforts must be sincere.

We will not be ordering 275 Tejas Mark1. If India was planning on ordering a single Tejas more than 123 (40+83) then we would have the much needed expansion of FOC order by now. But that aint happening.

And what tech you doubt we will get, what we should do, what are the exporting countries want etc. are the stuff everyone here knows and agrees upon. But no use dreaming of ideal case scenarios.
Indian engine do not meet parameters at this point, and whole Tejas series cant wait until we manage to get enough thrust off it.
I wrote what is happening and what is almost certain to happen in foreseeable future.

• Mark1/A will fly on imported F404
• MWF to ORCA will fly on imported F414... If F-18 wins MMRCA, we may get ToT if we play the cards right.
• If successfully developed the Indian 110kN class and 130kN class engines for later batches AMCA and 6th gen.

 

[Tridev123]

The very first thing we need is to establish Jet engine testing facilities . It only second Modi government initiated some kind of Testing facility upto 130KN. How lazy , irresponsible and idiots we are , tried to develop A variable cycle , afterburning Jet engine Of 90KN without a proper testing facility in the country . The basic is work culture

Yes, I agree. Our thinking process towards developing technologies and products should change. Without realistically assessing our capabilities we aim for the moon. Take the case of jet engine - turbofans. A country like Japan set their sights lower and first developed a low output turbofan < 50kn total thrust. They developed, flight tested and succeeded in creating a flight worthy low output turbofan. Then the process of scaling it up was initiated.

If GTRE had developed a much more modest turbofan and had productionised it, the confidence it would have generated would be immense. The scientists and engineers would have been motivated to develop the next version with better performance characteristics. Of course the basic facilities needed like a flying test bed, appropriate wind tunnels etc are an absolute necessity.

Dreaming big is OK. Wanting to match the products developed by the West is also OK. But setting the bar so high that it takes decades to achieve the standards is a big failure in project visualisation and management. At least 75% of projects should be based on realistic goals. Most of the projects undertaken by the DRDO lose their way resulting in cost and time overruns. Futuristic projects where the technology is very new can dream big as there will not be precedents.

Of course the users, the armed forces should accept any product or service developed by DRDO if it more economical compared to existing system in use or is a better version of an existing system in use by the forces. Most of our indigenously developed weapons may not be better than the imported weapons manufactured by the West but if we want to be strategically independent in the future there is no alternative to accepting indigenous weapons if minimum standards are met.

The Chinese are not ashamed of their indigenous weapons even if they do not match the Western standards. Just like how we have Tejas mk1, mk1a and Mwf our indigenous weapons can be improved over time.

Hope our country manages to become technologically self sufficient in the coming decade.

 

[Tridev123]

We will not be ordering 275 Tejas Mark1. If India was planning on ordering a single Tejas more than 123 (40+83) then we would have the much needed expansion of FOC order by now. But that aint happening.

And what tech you doubt we will get, what we should do, what are the exporting countries want etc. are the stuff everyone here knows and agrees upon. But no use dreaming of ideal case scenarios.
Indian engine do not meet parameters at this point, and whole Tejas series cant wait until we manage to get enough thrust off it.
I wrote what is happening and what is almost certain to happen in foreseeable future.

• Mark1/A will fly on imported F404
• MWF to ORCA will fly on imported F414... If F-18 wins MMRCA, we may get ToT if we play the cards right.
• If successfully developed the Indian 110kN class and 130kN class engines for later batches AMCA and 6th gen.

The MWF or LCA mk2 is also a Tejas, right?. We will be ordering around 200.It is a single engine aircraft like Lcamk1.

 

[Bleh]

The MWF or LCA mk2 is also a Tejas, right?. We will be ordering around 200.It is a single engine aircraft like Lcamk1.

Oh, no. Tejas Mark2 does not exist anymore.

MWF is to get new name. They even received suggestions via twitter.

 

[Anikastha]

The MWF or LCA mk2 is also a Tejas, right?. We will be ordering around 200.It is a single engine aircraft like Lcamk1.

it wont 200 if engine is not desi....