LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[DG7867]

Offical figure for mk1a is <=2000 km this data from last year

Any idea if there are enhancements on payload?.............

 

[Anikastha]

If we move things fast hereon, there's a good change to give good competition to F16 Blk 70 I believe.. If this were to happen,DRDO & HAL must scramble and work towards this like their life depends on it

why would americans let it be competition to f16...mwf will b using american engines....

 

[DG7867]

why would americans let it be competition to f16...mwf will b using american engines....

Makes me wonder the same about gripen-E...

 

[Bleh]

Any idea if there are enhancements on payload?.............

Not unless they enlarge wings or increase thrust. Even if they actually manage to reduce empty-weight it's unlikely to be more than few hundred kilos.

Mark1A is most likely to be an upgraded & more maintenance-friendly FOC Tejas... with maybe minor aerodynamic refinements.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Tejas was supposed to replace Mig 21 to fill its void.
There are 110 Mig 21 and all are to be retired by 2022. Meanwhile the production rate of Tejas is just 18, how are we supposed to fill the gap if this is going to be our production rate.
Pathetic we are retiring more aircraft than we are inducting.

 

[ezsasa]

Tejas was supposed to replace Mig 21 to fill its void.
There are 110 Mig 21 and all are to be retired by 2022. Meanwhile the production rate of Tejas is just 18, how are we supposed to fill the gap if this is going to be our production rate.
Pathetic we are retiring more aircraft than we are inducting.

How so? 110 Bison upgrade was going on until 2006.

BIS will be retired, not BISON.

 

[Suryavanshi]

How so? 110 Bison upgrade was going on until 2006.

BIS will be retired, not BISON.

Still sir Mig 21 is an old platform way past its operational age no amount of upgrade can help it keep up with modern times(Not taking Abhinandans case into account that was pure pilot genius at work).
What's the most we can stretch its life till 2030?
We recently retired 2 MIG 27 squadrons, Jaguar is on the list to unless upgrade is confirmed.
What measures are we supposed to take to fill the gap.
Having just one Assembling entity is causing the priduction issue, HAL can't give good prices and Production no until large orders are placed.

 

[ezsasa]

Still sir Mig 21 is an old platform way past its operational age no amount of upgrade can help it keep up with modern times(Not taking Abhinandans case into account that was pure pilot genius at work).
What's the most we can stretch its life till 2030?
We recently retired 2 MIG 27 squadrons, Jaguar is on the list to unless upgrade is confirmed.
What measures are we supposed to take to fill the gap.
Having just one Assembling entity is causing the priduction issue, HAL can't give good prices and Production no until large orders are placed.

By 2030, all of 83 MK1A would be in service. One or two squadrons of MK2 would also be in service, if the are not hung up on retractable fuel probe integration.

 

[Suryavanshi]

It makes me really worried now.
The backbone of our Air wing is 250+ su 30 mki along with 60+ mig 29 and and 40+ Mirage as bombers. Every other aircraft is to fill the numbers they don't have anything substantial to offer.

2.5 active theatre to cater to.
One Indo Pak which is our main threat.
In the future 36 Rafael will be up against Pakistan but are just two squadron enough to counter 4 squadron of f 16 with JF 17s.

Half of the flankers will be split on Indo-China at all times to maintain a credible defence.

I dislike this attitude of Indian defences we just do enough to keep up with Pakistan but never think of outdoing them, it's as if both have bilateral agreement to not overtake each other.

A few unpopular opinions here.

No matter what u say JF 17 is gonna be a credible threat in the future we keep making fun of em and they will punk our ass from behind.
Tejas might be superior but even it can't do shit when up against 2 JF 17 for 1 tejas.

Productions rate of JF 17 is increasing every year with constant localisation of Technology no matter how small and how insignificant.
I feel like we are the one making a fool out of ourselves by taking shots at JF 17s import.
How does it help us that we make 18 indigenous tejas and they make more than that even though assembled.
It does help us in the long run but Pakistan's never had the ambition to compete with us in self reliance.
They are cockroaches, they just want to survive in the long run, nothing else matters. They can live without a headache as long as they can keep us behind LOC.

Unlike us they have proper plan for the future but us well we are shooting blind folded.

"JF 17 is imported from China ha ha ha ha"
What the fuck this is literally the attitude of Indians regarding JF 17, I mean what the fuck. Why does it matters if its imported or gifted by Allah himself as long as they can fly and engage us then its a threat.

JF 17 is Chinese and that's exactly why we need to be worried, China is going to prop up Pakis just enough to keep us busy.

Mind this as soon as we get our AMCA, we will be hearing of Deal of 5 th gen between Chin-Pak.

Half of our airforce is ageing old fleet, what the fuck.
Is this how we are gonna be super power.

Do we forever want to be a super power that is gonna compete with pakis for validation.

Poke fun but at JF 17 however much u want but remember where is our Tejas bro, where is our MWF bro, oh wait it's on paper waiting for approval. They have 100 jf 17 right on groud.
What a fucking joke.

Everything that walks and thinks hates us and all that we can think about is overtaking Pakistan.
Are bhai pados me China he.

Our 250 su 30 and 36 Rafael aren't gonna win us the world and u should know that.

 

[Suryavanshi]

By 2030, all of 83 MK1A would be in service.

Mothafcukin 2030 yo

They have 100 JF 17 right now and 250 more JF 17 by 2030.

 

[porky_kicker]

Mothafcukin 2030 yo

They have 100 JF 17 right now and 250 more JF 17 by 2030.

:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

are you crying or laughing or both ?

Anyways from what i heard talks are going on to open a parallel private companies only production line for LCA etc

Let see

 

[Suryavanshi]

:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

are you crying or laughing or both ?

Anyways from what i heard talks are going on to open a parallel private companies only production line for LCA etc

Let see

Random thought about IAfs decreasing squadron strength came to my mind so I collected some data and rammed up my calculator, results were depression inducing.
Hence my meltdown in this thread.

Tejas production is all fine I'm thinking about upcoming projects like AMCA, and MWF. We need at least two more entities that are capable of assembling a figter jet public or private.
The current rate of 18 tejas per year is pathetic and I even doubt the promised numbers.
Just in case HAL becomes defucnt we would be without any major aeronautical company.
I don't know if Previous govt was retarded or what, just one fucking entity for all of Indias aerospace needs and that too preventing private companies from entering the fray. Fuck this even Russia had Migoyan,Ilyushin, Tuplov and Sukhoi for militray and United for passenger planes.
Fucking China has different divisions for aerospace.

India invented a new kind of policy of single entity and that too turned out to be retarded.

America has Lockhead Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Honeywell, BAE, Rayteheon, General Dynamics, General Electric, Textron, Pratt and Whitney, General Atomics, and 100 other small aerospace comapnies.

What do we have mothafuckin HAL

We are short of planes and these niggas cant keep away from strikes.

It's depressing yo.

Yaha log desh ke rachako ka bhala nahi sochte, aam janta ka kya jhant kush rahega.

 

[porky_kicker]

Random thought about IAfs decreasing squadron strength came to my mind so I collected some data and rammed up my calculator, results were depression inducing.
Hence my meltdown in this thread.

Tejas production is all fine I'm thinking about upcoming projects like AMCA, and MWF. We need at least two more entities that are capable of assembling a figter jet public or private.
The current rate of 18 tejas per year is pathetic and I even doubt the promised numbers.
Just in case HAL becomes defucnt we would be without any major aeronautical company.
I don't know if Previous govt was retarded or what, just one fucking entity for all of Indias aerospace needs and that too preventing private companies from entering the fray. Fuck this even Russia had Migoyan,Ilyushin, Tuplov and Sukhoi for militray and United for passenger planes.
Fucking China has different divisions for aerospace.

India invented a new kind of policy of single entity and that too turned out to be retarded.

America has Lockhead Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Honeywell, BAE, Rayteheon, General Dynamics, General Electric, Textron, Pratt and Whitney, General Atomics, and 100 other small aerospace comapnies.

What do we have mothafuckin HAL

We are short of planes and these niggas cant keep away from strikes.

It's depressing yo.

Yaha log desh ke rachako ka bhala nahi sochte, aam janta ka kya jhant kush rahega.

I will tell you exactly where the problem lies , we are barking at the wrong tree.

The problem lies squarely with IAF

Yes you heard it right

For decades top commanders of IAF slept with politicians and arms dalals for personal gaind . This started from the Indira Gandhi era . KGB infiltrated and accelerated it .

Only last couple of years under pressure from modi government they changed their habits.

Otherwise all these years their attitude was bap ka paisa hai jab mange ge mil jayega.

The situation is so pathetic they were literally sleeping on the jobs .

Old AAMs , old unsecured comms , non existent PGMs etc etc

If IAF had been onboard with LCA development since beginning this would not have been the situation.

Understand this porkies had amraan , was not the iaf aware of its capabilities ?

Our fighters did not have secured comms , was not the iaf aware of this fact ?

Bad work culture among maintenance crew, no interest to enforce liability for lapses leading to crashes .

Indian army same situation , armoured and artillery most corrupt. Can you believe serving and ex generals conspiring with congi politicians to hand over Siachen to porkies for personal gains ? Except one honest general refused to bow down . The one who was in command of northern command then.

No proactive thinking at all , just like stupid lazy indian bureaucrats. Chal raha hai chalene do.

Only the indian Navy is more or less corruption free all these years and and hence greater involvement of navy with local development programs .

If the military stands it ground , corrupt politicians can't do fuck . The public will see to it. But it didn't not happen all these years

 

[rone]

I will tell you exactly where the problem lies , we are barking at the wrong tree.

The problem lies squarely with IAF

Yes you heard it right

For decades top commanders of IAF slept with politicians and arms dalals for personal gaind . This started from the Indira Gandhi era . KGB infiltrated and accelerated it .

Only last couple of years under pressure from modi government they changed their habits.

Otherwise all these years their attitude was bap ka paisa hai jab mange ge mil jayega.

The situation is so pathetic they were literally sleeping on the jobs .

Old AAMs , old unsecured comms , non existent PGMs etc etc

If IAF had been onboard with LCA development since beginning this would not have been the situation.

Understand this porkies had amraan , was not the iaf aware of its capabilities ?

Our fighters did not have secured comms , was not the iaf aware of this fact ?

Bad work culture among maintenance crew, no interest to enforce liability for lapses leading to crashes .

Indian army same situation , armoured and artillery most corrupt. Can you believe serving and ex generals conspiring with congi politicians to hand over Siachen to porkies for personal gains ? Except one honest general refused to bow down . The one who was in command of northern command then.

No proactive thinking at all , just like stupid lazy indian bureaucrats. Chal raha hai chalene do.

Only the indian Navy is more or less corruption free all these years and and hence greater involvement of navy with local development programs .

If the military stands it ground , corrupt politicians can't do fuck . The public will see to it. But it didn't not happen all these years

Am feeling your pain, around 70% u said are acceptable issues rest are not
Let's break down one by one

1, HAL production : yes it have very low production rate compared to other international ones like Boeing and LM ,but you have to consider the budgets and resources they have, HAL just a screwdriver giri for almost from beginning of anything innovative come either it suppressed or rejected by GOV in past, they tried their best in developing LCA its getting fruits now, how they can fast produce if there is no need, IAF don't ordered LCA more than 40 No's till now, mk1a order yet to sign think about it u put almost half of company profit in aircraft like mk1a or mk2 and gov choose foreign Sellers products ?, so they have to produce everything in timely manner ( which they are failing becoz of their and other's fault)

2: development of mk2 AMCA like platform's these birds looks gud in graphics but when come to production it will be nightmare, for eg take LCA it self iaf stalled too long with changing requirements, if mk2 have to produce with oaf requirements they need to finalize their needs first then it take long 5 years to make that aircraft in to operational form(FOC) ,so developing all these project's in limited interval of must be miracle or India have to invade US and steal all LM and Boeing technical and other resources to fast production,

6: the needed squadron strength -- yes we are now at 30 squ, less than rated 42,but consider it needs on 2 front war scenario not on our western nighours kill day, I can think Pakistan as of now more stable than pak in Early 2000's becoz now Paris is financially broke, and they are not in a position to challenge India alone ,but they keep those forces modernise and try to par with their Indian counterparts, so of China joins the fight it may turn out to another world war or end of humanity , China not foolish enough to throw away everything they gained In Last 3 decade's also war with India make China choke on its vital tarde route's which may induce an unrecoverable economic crisis also US intervention in that conflict, US very much like to pawn India in to their China conflict


So now comes solution what we can do better in order to fill the short coming in our IAF

1: purchasing of additional MK1 foc ( least one squ) becoz mk1a take first flight only in 2022 and may enter service in late 2023 so additional foc mk1 is a gud bet

2: additional mig29 and su30 also with upgrade as we seen in last year Feb fiasco PAF dominated for Short term only becoz their modern AAM ( any one can dispute the f16 shoot down but think abt it) so adding better AAM than what our enemy have give us a upper hand, in which Rafael come with meteor but we can't use Rafael for every CAP and pure air defense , we need to integrate latest or much better ammunition like AAM to pur front line fighters like su30 and mig29,

3: yes mmrca 2.0 I hate to say this we have to relay on a foreign fighter for immediate filling of 110 aircraft, yes we have mk1a and mk2 on books as I said above it takes least 5yr to be in operational structures, but mean while we can do a deal where first 20-30 aircraft inducted as off shelf and rest made in India with complete TOT ( not like su30 saga) which may help us in further developments of amca( mk2 will be out of picture if this happen then only AMCA remains)

 

[porky_kicker]

Am feeling your pain, around 70% u said are acceptable issues rest are not
Let's break down one by one

1, HAL production : yes it have very low production rate compared to other international ones like Boeing and LM ,but you have to consider the budgets and resources they have, HAL just a screwdriver giri for almost from beginning of anything innovative come either it suppressed or rejected by GOV in past, they tried their best in developing LCA its getting fruits now, how they can fast produce if there is no need, IAF don't ordered LCA more than 40 No's till now, mk1a order yet to sign think about it u put almost half of company profit in aircraft like mk1a or mk2 and gov choose foreign Sellers products ?, so they have to produce everything in timely manner ( which they are failing becoz of their and other's fault)

2: development of mk2 AMCA like platform's these birds looks gud in graphics but when come to production it will be nightmare, for eg take LCA it self iaf stalled too long with changing requirements, if mk2 have to produce with oaf requirements they need to finalize their needs first then it take long 5 years to make that aircraft in to operational form(FOC) ,so developing all these project's in limited interval of must be miracle or India have to invade US and steal all LM and Boeing technical and other resources to fast production,

6: the needed squadron strength -- yes we are now at 30 squ, less than rated 42,but consider it needs on 2 front war scenario not on our western nighours kill day, I can think Pakistan as of now more stable than pak in Early 2000's becoz now Paris is financially broke, and they are not in a position to challenge India alone ,but they keep those forces modernise and try to par with their Indian counterparts, so of China joins the fight it may turn out to another world war or end of humanity , China not foolish enough to throw away everything they gained In Last 3 decade's also war with India make China choke on its vital tarde route's which may induce an unrecoverable economic crisis also US intervention in that conflict, US very much like to pawn India in to their China conflict


So now comes solution what we can do better in order to fill the short coming in our IAF

1: purchasing of additional MK1 foc ( least one squ) becoz mk1a take first flight only in 2022 and may enter service in late 2023 so additional foc mk1 is a gud bet

2: additional mig29 and su30 also with upgrade as we seen in last year Feb fiasco PAF dominated for Short term only becoz their modern AAM ( any one can dispute the f16 shoot down but think abt it) so adding better AAM than what our enemy have give us a upper hand, in which Rafael come with meteor but we can't use Rafael for every CAP and pure air defense , we need to integrate latest or much better ammunition like AAM to pur front line fighters like su30 and mig29,

3: yes mmrca 2.0 I hate to say this we have to relay on a foreign fighter for immediate filling of 110 aircraft, yes we have mk1a and mk2 on books as I said above it takes least 5yr to be in operational structures, but mean while we can do a deal where first 20-30 aircraft inducted as off shelf and rest made in India with complete TOT ( not like su30 saga) which may help us in further developments of amca( mk2 will be out of picture if this happen then only AMCA remains)

Release order for LCA mk1a pronto and increase the numbers from 83 to 150 .

With the condition that half of the orders will be executed by a private sector integrator.

Between hal and private sector 40-45 LCA per year is easily done and as added incentive to private company give the private company the right to do MRO on LCA mk1a.

No need of MMRCA , except for Rafale all others are big liabilities both money and security .

Chances of full scale war is very slim due to nuclear deterrence with porkies except for localised skirmishes . Chinese will need to think twice about air war , if anything happens it will be limited to land skirmishes imo.

 

[no smoking]

In the sources you've provided, all of them quote different ranges. There's 2100km, there's 3500km and there's 4000km range. Which of them is true?

No, they list 2190 miles (3524km) not 2190km for FERRY range. The 4000km range is only listed as "range" which we don't know under what condition (with re-fueling???).

they might be for different flight profiles, so which profile they're talking about?

Ferry range generally means the maximum range with maximum internal/external fuel without any weapon. pretty clear and standard.

Why none of the sources you've mentioned has any mention of fuel capacity?

Jaguar - 4180-4200 litres internal fuel
https://www.flightglobal.com/last-british-jaguar-shows-off-and-bows-out/78037.article
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/jaguar.htm
http://www.airvectors.net/avjag.html

Tejas is around 3000 litres.

If we assume that Jag has range of 3500-4000km, and Jag has MTOW of 15.7t vs Tejas's MTOW of 13.5t, how does that translate to such vast difference,

Bigger MTOW potentially means capacity of carry more external fuel.

despite Tejas having better dry thrust (53kN vs 45kN) and lower MTOW?

Dry thrust affect the maneuverability/speed, not necessary means longer range.
The range is affected by fuel consumption rate, aerodynamic design, speed, etc.

 

[vampyrbladez]

No, they list 2190 miles (3524km) not 2190km for FERRY range. The 4000km range is only listed as "range" which we don't know under what condition (with re-fueling???).



Ferry range generally means the maximum range with maximum internal/external fuel without any weapon. pretty clear and standard.

It depends on your flying altitude configuration. On wiki it shows Jaguar having 1902 Km ferry range where as on military wiki figure goes to 3524 Km.

Offical figure for mk1a is <=2000 km this data from last year

Jaguar - 4180-4200 litres internal fuel
https://www.flightglobal.com/last-british-jaguar-shows-off-and-bows-out/78037.article

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/jaguar.htm
http://www.airvectors.net/avjag.html

Tejas is around 3000 litres.

Jaguar also happens to have a lower TWR and less efficient engine. With EFT you can more than surpass Jaguar performance.

Bigger MTOW potentially means capacity of carry more external fuel.

Not necessarily. Higher MTOW means you can carry more ordinance and sensor payloads. Only certain designated pylons or a predetermined central EFT hardpoint can add to maximum fuel.

Dry thrust affect the maneuverability/speed, not necessary means longer range.
The range is affected by fuel consumption rate, aerodynamic design, speed, etc.

Then why is everyone running after supercruise technology?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Random thought about IAfs decreasing squadron strength came to my mind so I collected some data and rammed up my calculator, results were depression inducing.
Hence my meltdown in this thread.

Tejas production is all fine I'm thinking about upcoming projects like AMCA, and MWF. We need at least two more entities that are capable of assembling a figter jet public or private.
The current rate of 18 tejas per year is pathetic and I even doubt the promised numbers.
Just in case HAL becomes defucnt we would be without any major aeronautical company.
I don't know if Previous govt was retarded or what, just one fucking entity for all of Indias aerospace needs and that too preventing private companies from entering the fray. Fuck this even Russia had Migoyan,Ilyushin, Tuplov and Sukhoi for militray and United for passenger planes.
Fucking China has different divisions for aerospace.

India invented a new kind of policy of single entity and that too turned out to be retarded.

America has Lockhead Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Honeywell, BAE, Rayteheon, General Dynamics, General Electric, Textron, Pratt and Whitney, General Atomics, and 100 other small aerospace comapnies.

What do we have mothafuckin HAL

We are short of planes and these niggas cant keep away from strikes.

It's depressing yo.

Yaha log desh ke rachako ka bhala nahi sochte, aam janta ka kya jhant kush rahega.

Do read this and know that the future is bright for the aerospace industry. Atleast under this regime.

https://www.businesstoday.in/curren...-from-nagpur-in-three-years/story/318140.html

https://theprint.in/defence/dassaul...in-india-this-year-for-global-clients/248402/

 

[vampyrbladez]

Just look at the level of corruption these chaps institutionalised!

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investigation/who-is-lt-gen-tejinder-singh

 

[Lancer]

The squadron situation could always be better, but folks need to take it easy. From this year onwards the numbers will only rise (and mind you, while we retire archaic aircraft, we'll be adding far more capable ones, even the LCA is a very capable plane), not to mention the INAA has a couple squadrons of fighters as well. Gagan Shakti showed our ability to swing assets between theaters and exploit force multipliers too.

Now add in the Air Defense purchases we're making and the network we're trying to build (incl. the fearsome S-400 which would potentially ground most of the PAF from onset of hostilities) and we have enough to clobber Pak and hold off China.

Hopefully a stronger economy will give us more room to follow through w/ purchases like the original MMRCA tender, or Naval MMRCA (and some Stealth fighters too) in the future; but we have a capable Air Force even now, and the main need of the hour is to place faith in LCA's and bulk up our numbers with those.