Kolkata Class Destroyers Update

[arnabmit]

I'm pretty sure abt my earlier posts, but I'll be happy if proven wrong. Let's wait for a few more months and everything will be clear.
P K Sengupta also thinks the main gun aboard P-15A DDGs is Oto Melara 76/62 mm SRGM in a stealth cupola.
Several months ago when I was somehow sure that the main gun aboard P-15A DDGs is Oto Melara 76/62 SRGM in a stealth cupola(from my earlier assumption of A-192M), I had asked Sengupta abt it. He never gave me an answer. But recently after the pic of INS Kolkata came out he answered somebody else regarding the same. This is what he said



Of course he's wrong that IN will be the only navy having 76mm gun equipped destroyers.
Another thing is that Oto Melara 76mm SRGM can also act as a potent CIWS platform against sub-sonic cruise missiles. So I don't think that having Oto Melara 76mm SRGM on P-15A DDGs is an entirely bad thing.

I do not really trust what Mr. Prasun Sengupta says. He has been proven wrong on many counts before.

Just follow the sequence of events:
1> OTO Malara offered India TOT for 127/64 LW during DefExpo 2012 (AFAIK)
2> Soon after IN announced that P17A would have the 127/64 LW
3> MDL officials said IN wanted the main gun mount of the Kolkata-Class replaced later in the same year.

Also, look at the picture. The stealth cupola does not have the retractable cover of the 76/62's CIWS pencil beam radar.

76/62's Stealth Cupola

But the cupola looks definitely like that of the 127/64

 

[WMD]

I do not really trust what Mr. Prasun Sengupta says. He has been proven wrong on many counts before.

Just follow the sequence of events:
1> OTO Malara offered India TOT for 127/64 LW during DefExpo 2012 (AFAIK)
2> Soon after IN announced that P17A would have the 127/64 LW
3> MDL officials said IN wanted the main gun mount of the Kolkata-Class replaced later in the same year.

Also, look at the picture. The stealth cupola does not have the retractable cover of the 76/62's CIWS pencil beam radar.

76/62's Stealth Cupola

But the cupola looks definitely like that of the 127/64

I know that P K Sengupta has been proven to be wrong on more than one occasion.

I got this from Broadsword blog of Ajai Shukla

To make matters worse, many of these decisions were taken late, necessitating major reconstruction. The CAG points out that the decision on the Humsa sonar was taken "after MDL had completed the detailed design, production, assembly and erection of the bow structure without sonar", which called for major redesign. Similarly, the navy decided to change the gun mount in March 2008, after the first ship was launched. This "necessitated redesign of the entire structure around the gun mount"¦" says the CAG.

Broadsword: Navy's wavering delaying warships by years

Somehow corroborates the fact that the gun mount was actually changed from AK-100, which Sengupta stated.
The timeline you are pointing out is much later. By 2012 most of the superstructure of Kolkata was completed including the gun mount as evident from the pics posted by Jeff Head.
I've also posted what I got from SIPRI.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ata-class-destroyers-update-9.html#post823240

This is the gun mount.
The pic of Kolkata is too vague anyway to predict anything.
So let's wait for a few more months.

 

[WMD]

@arnabmit

I asked @Decklander to confirm whether the gun aboard INS Kolkata is an Oto Melara 76 SRGM or not from his naval sources.
He says it's a Otobreda 127/64mm LW gun. Though I'm still not convinced, thought you might wanna know.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We need more accurate picture of the gun ..

 

[FulcrumD]

We need more accurate picture of the gun ..

Beware what u wish for.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Didn't get your meaning ..

Beware what u wish for.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Multiple principal combatants berthed perilously close together. See below:

3 Kilo-clas sub's + INS Viraat + Delhi class destroyer + Talwar class frigate + & the under-construction P-15A

To imagine what an accidental detonation on one ship would do to the others.
@Kunal Biswas @Decklander @sayareakd

Is this a normal practice ? Any plans for remediation of such congestion ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not just detonation, Lot of other things could happen ..

I hope Mumbai harbours only Missiles boats and Submarines ..

 

[bhramos]

Not just detonation, Lot of other things could happen ..

I hope Mumbai harbours only Missiles boats and Submarines ..

yeah once i remember this happened in St. Petersburg Russia in a naval show an unarmed went into city and hit an apartment..

 

[nirranj]

yeah once i remember this happened in St. Petersburg Russia in a naval show an unarmed went into city and hit an apartment..

Mumbai: 30 mm gun on Coast Guard ship goes off, naval building damaged

Mumbai: In a freak mishap, a 30 mm gun on board a Coast Guard ship went off accidentally when it was being repaired, damaging a portion of the Western Naval Command headquarters building in Mumbai. A Board of Inquiry (BOI) is looking into the incident that occurred early this month, the sources said, adding no loss of life has been reported.

The practice round hit the 3rd floor of the high security building when the gun went off accidentally while undergoing repair on board the warship ICGS Samrat in presence of the Mumbai-based Naval Armament Depot personnel, they said. ICGS Samrat carries two indigenous 30mm CRN 91 Gun along with fire control system.

This is the fifth reported incident where naval assets have suffered damage including the INS Sindhurakshak accident where the vessel sank inside the Mumbai harbour after an explosion in its torpedo section.

The BOI is headed by a Commodore-rank officer from the Coast Guard and also includes two naval officers, the sources said.

In a recent incident earlier this month, the INS Talwar collided with an unlit fishing trawler near Ratnagiri coast in Maharashtra in which four fishermen suffered injuries prompting the Navy to order an inquiry.

There was a fire incident on board the only aircraft carrier INS Viraat off the coast of Mumbai earlier this year.

INS Konkan, a newly commissioned minesweeper vessel of the Navy, also suffered damage due to a fire incident in the first week of the month in Vishakhapatnam.

Mumbai: 30 mm gun on Coast Guard ship goes off, naval building damaged | NDTV.com

Hope we move our Strategic naval assets away from the City of Mumbai to Actual Naval Bases.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

For sake of Navy, Never load the gun when in harbor in peace time ..

 

[vram]

Guys do you know if the barak 8 will be installed in this ship right from the time of induction itself??? I am getting confused on whether this has completed development or not? It appears that the barak 8 installation has already started in isreali destroyers..why the delay in kolkata class then..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

For sake of Navy, Never load the gun when in harbor in peace time ..

 

[arnabmit]

Please read the last few pages. Everything discussed already.

1> Barak 8 will be installed (probably 1st minor refit)
2> Barak 8 not ready yet. Israel plans to install them when ready, have not installed them yet.
3> It will have both B-1 (for short range; installed now) and B-8 (for long range; installed later) interceptors eventually

Guys do you know if the barak 8 will be installed in this ship right from the time of induction itself??? I am getting confused on whether this has completed development or not? It appears that the barak 8 installation has already started in isreali destroyers..why the delay in kolkata class then..

 

[vram]

Please read the last few pages. Everything discussed already.

1> Barak 8 will be installed (probably 1st minor refit)
2> Barak 8 not ready yet. Israel plans to install them when ready, have not installed them yet.
3> It will have both B-1 (for short range; installed now) and B-8 (for long range; installed later) interceptors eventually

okay thanks that what I understood from going through the thread. But some external new sources say israel has already started installing the Barak -8 in their lead destroyer sa'ar 5 class ships in july'13 itself , hence my doubt. But the Indian news sources seem to indicate that it is still under development. So what gives...
Israeli Navy installs Barak 8 missile onto Sa'ar 5-class vessels - Naval Technology

 

[arnabmit]

Sources in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which partnered with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael of Israel in 2009 for the program, said the MRSAM prototype has failed initial tests. Sources added that the induction of the first firing unit will take place no earlier than 2017, as opposed to the planned induction this year.

India Hedges its Bets by Looking for Homegrown Surface-to-air Missiles | Defense News | defensenews.com

The article you posted was from August, 2013. Then tests in September, 2013 failed. DRDO said it would not be ready before 2017. Then this month they again said that it might be ready by 2014 end or 2015 start.

okay thanks that what I understood from going through the thread. But some external new sources say israel has already started installing the Barak -8 in their lead destroyer sa'ar 5 class ships in july'13 itself , hence my doubt. But the Indian news sources seem to indicate that it is still under development. So what gives...
Israeli Navy installs Barak 8 missile onto Sa'ar 5-class vessels - Naval Technology

 

[sivachandan]

keep on fighting on names..........
this class of Destroyers have been delays for so long, why can't govt impose fines if a project gets delayed?

because Indian gov wants home made ships and these ships are the biggest and stealthiest "Destroyers" ever built by an Indian ship yard

 

[Twinblade]

Please read the last few pages. Everything discussed already.

1> Barak 8 will be installed (probably 1st minor refit)
2> Barak 8 not ready yet. Israel plans to install them when ready, have not installed them yet.
3> It will have both B-1 (for short range; installed now) and B-8 (for long range; installed later) interceptors eventually

I am not aware of Barak-1 being installed on Kolkata class. I can't find any reliable sources to attribute that. The wiki entry has no back up links.

India Hedges its Bets by Looking for Homegrown Surface-to-air Missiles | Defense News | defensenews.com

The article you posted was from August, 2013. Then tests in September, 2013 failed. DRDO said it would not be ready before 2017. Then this month they again said that it might be ready by 2014 end or 2015 start.

That is MRSAM. The missile on board Kolkata is LRSAM. Big difference. MRSAM is extended range land based project for Airforce, LRSAM is navy's project.

 

[arnabmit]

I am not aware of Barak-1 being installed on Kolkata class. I can't find any reliable sources to attribute that. The wiki entry has no back up links.

That is MRSAM. The missile on board Kolkata is LRSAM. Big difference. MRSAM is extended range land based project for Airforce, LRSAM is navy's project.

Not citing Wiki, read in BR that IN preferred AK-630+Barak-I combo over Kashtan for CIWS. All those ships that do not have Kashtan will have AK-630+Barak-I combo. Barak-8 would be added on for AD instead of Buk or other SAM systems.

AFAIK, IAF's MRSAM = IN's LRSAM. ERSAM would be based on the same platform with added range. Anyway, IN is supposed to get it by Dec 2015 now, as per recent reports.

 

[Twinblade]

Not citing Wiki, read in BR that IN preferred AK-630+Barak-I combo over Kashtan for CIWS. All those ships that do not have Kashtan will have AK-630+Barak-I combo. Barak-8 would be added on for AD instead of Buk or other SAM systems.

Barak is a VLS system. I don't think any VLS have been allotted to Barak-1 yet.

AFAIK, IAF's MRSAM = IN's LRSAM. ERSAM would be based on the same platform with added range.

Most likely MRSAM=ERSAM. We'll have to wait and watch.