Kolkata Class Destroyers Update

[rohit b3]

Good plan. It'd be nice to see a comparison between Kolkata and Type 45 air defence destroyer.

India did consider joinin the GCS project , hoping it would make its own project cheaper, but as of now it has decided to go solo with its Future Project 17A Frigates, so the plan seems cancelled.

And about Kolkata Class vs Type 45

Here's a quote from an Broadsword article " Project 15A will eventually cost the navy Rs 11,662 crore. At Rs 3,900 crore per destroyer, that is barely one-third what the UK's Royal Navy has paid for its new Type-45 Daring-class destroyers --- Rs 11,000 crore per vessel.

Yet many regard the Kolkata as more versatile and capable than the Daring. Alongside the world-beating LR-SAM, the Kolkata's 16 Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles allow pinpoint strikes on enemy ships and land targets as far away as 295 kilometres.

Besides anti-air, anti-ship and anti-surface capabilities, Project 15A destroyers are also potent anti-submarine platforms."

Broadsword: INS Kolkata, navy’s most powerful warship, to be delivered next month

 

[Sea Eagle]

Isnt it's characteristic like other short range CIWS available around?

These are rocket artillery type CIWS and are more effective against incoming cruise missiles than the conventional combos, like AK 630+Barak-1, because the missile can be launched in less time than that of VLS based missile.

 

[HMS Astute]

American Destroyers with SM-6 are a generation ahead of other destroyers.

At the moment, UK Type 45 is more advanced than those USN destroyers in terms of AAW capability.

 

[HMS Astute]

India did consider joinin the GCS project , hoping it would make its own project cheaper, but as of now it has decided to go solo with its Future Project 17A Frigates, so the plan seems cancelled.

And about Kolkata Class vs Type 45

Here's a quote from an Broadsword article " Project 15A will eventually cost the navy Rs 11,662 crore. At Rs 3,900 crore per destroyer, that is barely one-third what the UK's Royal Navy has paid for its new Type-45 Daring-class destroyers --- Rs 11,000 crore per vessel.

Yet many regard the Kolkata as more versatile and capable than the Daring. Alongside the world-beating LR-SAM, the Kolkata's 16 Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles allow pinpoint strikes on enemy ships and land targets as far away as 295 kilometres.

Besides anti-air, anti-ship and anti-surface capabilities, Project 15A destroyers are also potent anti-submarine platforms."

Broadsword: INS Kolkata, navy's most powerful warship, to be delivered next month

Thanks for the answer and GSC project would have been better if India joined.

Regarding with Type 45, it can simultaneously detect and track over 1000 targets the size of snooker ball, travelling more than 3x the speed of sound from over 400km range. It is designed to protect the entire carrier strike group from any aircraft/missile attacks (including nuclear ballistic missiles). Aster 30 Block 2 is already being developed and it can shoot down 3000km range nuclear ballistic missiles.

 

[Eastman]

Thanks for the answer. Type 45 can simultaneously detect and track over 1000 targets the size of snooker ball, travelling more than 3x the speed of sound from over 400km range.

Is it a ship or God?

 

[rohit b3]

Thanks for the answer and GSC project would have been better if India joined.

Regarding with Type 45, it can simultaneously detect and track over 1000 targets the size of snooker ball, travelling more than 3x the speed of sound from over 400km range. It is designed to protect the entire carrier strike group from any aircraft/missile attacks (including ballistic missiles).

Kolkata Class can detect the same, except over 250 kms, so yes, Type 45's SAMPSON radar has more range. Overall the AAW of the Type 45 is somewhat better than Kolkata.

The main advantages of Kolkata over Type 45 is having 16 X BrahMos - The world's fastest Anti-ship cruise missile with pinpoint accuracy and stealth features. A Kolkata Class alone is enough to take down an entire Carrier Battle Group. 8x Harpoon on the Type 45 doesn really pack a punch and can be intercepted by any mediocre SAM.

Another big disadvantage of the Type 45 against any contempory Destroyer is that....it does not have Torpedo tubes or Rocket launchers, leaving it vulnerable against Submarines.

 

[HMS Astute]

Kolkata Class can detect the same, except over 250 kms, so yes, Type 45's SAMPSON radar has more range. Overall the AAW of the Type 45 is somewhat better than Kolkata.

The main advantages of Kolkata over Type 45 is having 16 X BrahMos - The world's fastest Anti-ship cruise missile with pinpoint accuracy and stealth features. A Kolkata Class alone is enough to take down an entire Carrier Battle Group. 8x Harpoon on the Type 45 doesn really pack a punch and can be intercepted by any mediocre SAM.

Another big disadvantage of the Type 45 against any contempory Destroyer is that....it does not have Torpedo tubes or Rocket launchers, leaving it vulnerable against Submarines.

I believe Type 45 ($1.8bn per ship) is currently the world's best and most advanced air defence destroyers and they are designed to project queen elizabeth carrier strike groups from air/missile/ballistics/aircraft attacks. for the anti ship capability, we have Astute class hunter killer stealth nuclear attack submarines which are designed to sink surface vessels from long range. they also have land attack capability as they are also armed with Tomahawk land attack cruise missiles which can hit the targets accurately from over 2500km (1550 miles). Also the new Global Combat Ship (GCS) will be specialised in anti ship role, whereas the Type 45 is specialised in anti air role.

Astute ($2bn per ship) are still U/C.

 

[rohit b3]

I believe Type 45 ($1.8bn per ship) is currently the world's best and most advanced air defence destroyers and they are designed to project queen elizabeth carrier strike groups from air/missile/ballistics/aircraft attacks. for the anti ship capability, we have Astute class hunter killer stealth nuclear attack submarines which are designed to sink surface vessels from long range. they also have land attack capability as they are also armed with Tomahawk land attack cruise missiles which can hit the targets accurately from over 2500km (1550 miles). Also the new Global Combat Ship (GCS) will be specialised in anti ship role, whereas the Type 45 is specialised in anti air role.

Astute ($2bn per ship) are still U/C.

I thought we were looking at a Kolkata Vs Type 45 Comparision?

And honestly, cant really say who's the "Best" at AAW role. Not the Kolkata offcourse, though its still pretty impressive. But there's the French/Italian Horizon Class and Chinese Type52c and Type052D Destroyers with longer range radars and SAMs, that compete for the Top spot.

 

[HMS Astute]

I thought we were looking at a Kolkata Vs Type 45 Comparision?

And honestly, cant really say who's the "Best" at AAW role. Not the Kolkata offcourse, though its still pretty impressive. But there's the French/Italian Horizon Class and Chinese Type52c and Type052D Destroyers with longer range radars and SAMs, that compete for the Top spot.

actually the horizon project was started by the uk, france and italy for common european air defence system project. france's requirement was just to escort the cdg smaller carrier within a limited range. italy required only close range capability to operate in med sea. The Royal Navy, however, required more capable ships, large destroyers which could patrol large areas such as the Atlantic, which could throw a large defensive "bubble" over a fleet operating in hostile areas and a wide-area defence capability, able to protect large numbers of ships rather than just protection from missiles targeted in the frigate's general direction. so uk withdrew from the project and went to its own more advanced air defence destroyer project which has become Type 45. These ships are expensive, ($1.8bn per ship) and royal navy operates 6x of them compared to only 2x for France and 2x for Italy. I think we will see these ships in action when US went to war against china lol. J/K. And the reason why i also mentioned about Global Combat Ship and submarines is because RN has different structure and it's ships are specialised and dedicated to do specific roles, whereas many other navies prefer to operate multirole ships which are not entirely specialised to do specific tasks. i guess its all about different requirements/structures/strategies for different navies. i'd prefer to see india working more with the west rather than with russia. because imo if a conflict broke out between china and india, the west will be there to back up india, whereas russia will likely to side with the chinese for obvious reason. regarding with the Kolkata class, i think it is a fine multirole ship which will give Indian navy a great capability. The only thing i am concerned about it is it's radar, aaw capability and of course the quantity, considering india is a very big country.

HMS Daring (Type 45) in Shanghai, China.

HMS Daring in Shanghai by Lord Shen, on Flickr

 

[p2prada]

It will be really great if India participates in our new generation of Global Combat Ship (Type 26) frigate project.

It will be very unlikely, but India can work with BAE and MBDA in developing new types of weapons and radars for new gen ships.

 

[HMS Astute]

It will be very unlikely, but India can work with BAE and MBDA in developing new types of weapons and radars for new gen ships.

i guess india can join the UK led Meteor Beyond Visual Range and also Brimstone Fire And Forget missiles projects. even US is considering to use Brimstone missiles which are combat proven, cheap, very accurate, deadly, and effective with its precision and tracking systems. this will be a huge blow for china if indian air force is greatly equipped with mass amount of these missiles.

 

[p2prada]

Good plan. It'd be nice to see a comparison between Kolkata and Type 45 air defence destroyer.

Type 45 has some extra capabilities that's not present on Kolkata, like the Aster 30 and CAMM. Barak-8 is not made for BMD like Aster-30 and Barak-1 is less capable in its current form compared to CAMM. The future Maitri will be a match.

Kolkata class is just a notch below the Type 45, but there is the potential to match or exceed the Type 45 over the next 10 years when refits happen and new gen weapons are added. The P-15B on the other hand may exceed the Type 45 much earlier, but that is to be seen.

Kolkata has the advantage with 16 supersonic Brahmos while Type 45 has 8 Harpoons. Pretty much all other weapons systems are in a similar class.

I suppose the level of automation on Type 45 is greater hence the lesser number of crew.

The problem with European ships is they are role specific. IN wants fully capable multirole ships right from Frigates to Destroyers. We want all our ships to have very similar levels of capability in AAW, ASuW, and ASW. That's why we have practically every weapon on our ships. This makes it quite unnecessary to join a project like GCS which is aiming at making role-specific ships.

In our navy only our corvettes are designed with role-specific missions in mind, like the Kamorta class for ASW. A quick look on wiki for the specifications of GCS puts it in a similar role like the Kamorta class, if the Kamorta was built for anti-ship role, even though GCS is much bigger due to the primary ASuW/AAW role.

 

[p2prada]

i guess india can join the UK led Meteor Beyond Visual Range and also Brimstone Fire And Forget missiles projects. even US is considering to use Brimstone missiles which are combat proven and very accurate, deadly, and effective with its precision systems. this will be a huge blow for china to handle if indian air force is greatly equipped with mass amount of these missiles.

It would be great if we had them and I believe IAF is looking at both, but I thought we were talking about ships. I am happy to discuss this in a different thread.

We currently have plans of starting a JV for Maitri SAM with France MBDA. The missile will be very similar to CAMM.

What I was looking for in the JV with Britain is the development of new anti-sub missiles, depth charges, torpedoes, with new radar and sonars. Maybe a new gen C3I system for usage on ships. These could be part of the Kolkata and Type 45 mid-life refits. We can deliver new gen Brahmos missiles for the Type 45s later on.

 

[HMS Astute]

What I was looking for in the JV with Britain is the development of new anti-sub missiles, depth charges, torpedoes, with new radar and sonars. Maybe a new gen C3I system for usage on ships. These could be part of the Kolkata and Type 45 mid-life refits. We can deliver new gen Brahmos missiles for the Type 45s later on.

i believe uk is already developing a stealth supersonic cruise missile called Perseus which is primarily a surface-launched and submarine-launched stealth supersonic cruise missile built around an advanced, agile and stealthy airframe. they will replace the current ageing Harpoon and Exocet missiles. i have no idea about chinese armed forces, ships, missiles and capability, but i suppose india is doing great with so many proposed, current and future projects especially ships and fighter jets.

Perseus (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[p2prada]

i believe uk is already developing a stealth supersonic cruise missile called Perseus which is primarily a surface-launched and submarine-launched stealth supersonic cruise missile built around an advanced, agile and stealthy airframe. they will replace the current ageing Harpoon and Exocet missiles.

Last I heard it was expected to be operational in 2030. By the time Type 45s undergo refits Perseus could be ready.

i have no idea about chinese armed forces, ships, missiles and capability, but i suppose india is doing great with so many proposed, current and future projects especially ships and fighter jets.

The Chinese are above us in terms of ships deployed, but we are getting there. We are doing all right for ourselves. In a decade we will be in a much better position because today we are just replacing old ships.

Projects P-15B and P-17A are going to be important because that's when we will begin expanding our fleet from the 80 ships we have today. IN plans on doubling the fleet in the next 10 years. Not to mention the plans on deploying 400 aircraft, with 100-200 of them being fighter jets, in a few years.

 

[Bheeshma]

Since someone had bought up the aussie ships.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...rship-project-pm/story-fn3dxiwe-1227006926525

PRIME Minister Tony Abbott wants urgent action to address the significant delays and cost overruns that are hampering major naval shipbuilding projects.

THE government is set to sack its own naval shipbuilder, ASC, and install British defence giant BAE Industries to rescue the $8.5 billion construction of three air warfare destroyers.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Since someone had bought up the aussie ships.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...rship-project-pm/story-fn3dxiwe-1227006926525

PRIME Minister Tony Abbott wants urgent action to address the significant delays and cost overruns that are hampering major naval shipbuilding projects.

THE government is set to sack its own naval shipbuilder, ASC, and install British defence giant BAE Industries to rescue the $8.5 billion construction of three air warfare destroyers.

So ? You want to point out the mis-management of the project. But to tell you Indian naval projects have this same problem but in bigger magnitude.

 

[Sea Eagle]

At the moment, UK Type 45 is more advanced than those USN destroyers in terms of AAW capability.

SM-6 will enable USN to do OTH engangements [They can even engage an incoming missile even though the onboard radars doesn't see the missile]

 

[Srinivas_K]

i believe uk is already developing a stealth supersonic cruise missile called Perseus which is primarily a surface-launched and submarine-launched stealth supersonic cruise missile built around an advanced, agile and stealthy airframe. they will replace the current ageing Harpoon and Exocet missiles. i have no idea about chinese armed forces, ships, missiles and capability, but i suppose india is doing great with so many proposed, current and future projects especially ships and fighter jets.

Perseus (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hypersonic Brahmos which India is developing also come under this category with higher speed.

 

[Bheeshma]

Mis-management is endemic to Aussie naval programs. Collins being prime example of it. Point is Kolkota class is good enough in Asia and our neighbourhood.