Know Your 'Rafale'

[fire starter]

On papers the PL 15's has all of it's .

on paper it can even shoot down satellite but how should we believe since all their missiles are based on Soviet technology.

 

[Mikesingh]

Wait but Pakistanis also claimed the JF-17 is far superior to the Rafale so how does an inferior aircraft shift the balance? In reality besides a few dozen F-16 and SAAB AWACS the PAF is pretty decrepit and with money constrains I doubt the average PAF pilot is any good.

And to cap it all, 40% of their much vaunted F-16s are lying like dead dodos on the tarmac because of lack of spares and so unworthy to fly. Reports say that 10% of their older blk F-16s have been mothballed permanently for providing spares!!

And this bikhari PAF avoid flying their remaining F-16s due to budgetary constraints as it costs Rs 15 Lakhs PKR per hour of flying one F-16!

 

[fire starter]

And to cap it all, 40% of their much vaunted F-16s are lying like dead dodos on the tarmac because of lack of spares and so unworthy to fly. Reports say that 10% of their older blk F-16s have been mothballed permanently for providing spares!!

They can't achieve stalemate until they bring their full air force this time against the combo of rafale and su30.

 

[Tupac slayer]

And to cap it all, 40% of their much vaunted F-16s are lying like dead dodos on the tarmac because of lack of spares and so unworthy to fly. Reports say that 10% of their older blk F-16s have been mothballed permanently for providing spares!!

And this bikhari PAF avoid flying their remaining F-16s due to budgetary constraints as it costs Rs 15 Lakhs PKR per hour of flying one F-16!

I think Pakistan censors any bad news with regards to their F-16, Lack of Spares? US has not imposed any sanctions on Pakistan? Sir you mean to say that Pakistan has not got enough money even to buy spare parts to enable fleet stay air worthy? please clear this question? Next time after a Balakot type like strike, I wish an F-16 Wreckage falls inside Indian border. Day it is done many myths can be blown away.

 

[FalconZero]

on twitter

Dm

 

[Neptune]

On papers the PL 15's has all of it's .

The problem is the Chinese put out laughable advertisement campaigns much of which are not even official numbers but the usual ‘insiders’ aka Chinese basement trolls. None of the claims floating around are anywhere near reality even ‘official’ claims is idiotic propaganda.

For instance take the WS-15, it’s claimed it produces 44,000lb thrust some Chinese idiots online even claimed 50,000lbs thrust

Let’s compare that to the American F-35 engine that produces 43,000lbs thrust and that is largely due to the massive size and weight of the engine. The US also has at least 25-30 years lead on China in regards to engines. Does anyone actually believe China which was decades behind even Russia and France in engine design suddenly created an engine that is even smaller then an AL-31 but puts out more power then the massively larger F-135?

I mean if the Chinese upsized the WS-15 to the equivalent size of the F-135 it would probably produce 60,000lbs thrust. The PL-15 is the same story, the Chinese virus already reaffirm that China is incapable of being honest and will make any excuses and lies no matter how ridiculous it is to just save face. China constantly lies about everything, PL-15, WS-15, China flue, Sino India border attacks, and much more.

The PL-15 probably is luck if it has a range of 150km and the WS-15 probably doesn’t produce any more then 35,000lbs thrust but I’m sure during testing Chinese engineers took fire hoses with jet fuel and pored it into the engine until it explodes in flames so they can brag that for 0.001 second the engine produced 44,000lbs before it exploded.

 

[ARVION]

The problem is the Chinese put out laughable advertisement campaigns much of which are not even official numbers but the usual ‘insiders’ aka Chinese basement trolls. None of the claims floating around are anywhere near reality even ‘official’ claims is idiotic propaganda.

For instance take the WS-15, it’s claimed it produces 44,000lb thrust some Chinese idiots online even claimed 50,000lbs thrust

Let’s compare that to the American F-35 engine that produces 43,000lbs thrust and that is largely due to the massive size and weight of the engine. The US also has at least 25-30 years lead on China in regards to engines. Does anyone actually believe China which was decades behind even Russia and France in engine design suddenly created an engine that is even smaller then an AL-31 but puts out more power then the massively larger F-135?

I mean if the Chinese upsized the WS-15 to the equivalent size of the F-135 it would probably produce 60,000lbs thrust. The PL-15 is the same story, the Chinese virus already reaffirm that China is incapable of being honest and will make any excuses and lies no matter how ridiculous it is to just save face. China constantly lies about everything, PL-15, WS-15, China flue, Sino India border attacks, and much more.

The PL-15 probably is luck if it has a range of 150km and the WS-15 probably doesn’t produce any more then 35,000lbs thrust but I’m sure during testing Chinese engineers took fire hoses with jet fuel and pored it into the engine until it explodes in flames so they can brag that for 0.001 second the engine produced 44,000lbs before it exploded.

It's the PL 15's NEZ is just 80 kM , and that's for sure's .

 

[fire starter]

The problem is the Chinese put out laughable advertisement campaigns much of which are not even official numbers but the usual ‘insiders’ aka Chinese basement trolls. None of the claims floating around are anywhere near reality even ‘official’ claims is idiotic propaganda.

For instance take the WS-15, it’s claimed it produces 44,000lb thrust some Chinese idiots online even claimed 50,000lbs thrust

Let’s compare that to the American F-35 engine that produces 43,000lbs thrust and that is largely due to the massive size and weight of the engine. The US also has at least 25-30 years lead on China in regards to engines. Does anyone actually believe China which was decades behind even Russia and France in engine design suddenly created an engine that is even smaller then an AL-31 but puts out more power then the massively larger F-135?

I mean if the Chinese upsized the WS-15 to the equivalent size of the F-135 it would probably produce 60,000lbs thrust. The PL-15 is the same story, the Chinese virus already reaffirm that China is incapable of being honest and will make any excuses and lies no matter how ridiculous it is to just save face. China constantly lies about everything, PL-15, WS-15, China flue, Sino India border attacks, and much more.

The PL-15 probably is luck if it has a range of 150km and the WS-15 probably doesn’t produce any more then 35,000lbs thrust but I’m sure during testing Chinese engineers took fire hoses with jet fuel and pored it into the engine until it explodes in flames so they can brag that for 0.001 second the engine produced 44,000lbs before it exploded.

see the claims made by Chinese you will die laughing.

 

[Neptune]

I think Pakistan censors any bad news with regards to their F-16, Lack of Spares? US has not imposed any sanctions on Pakistan? Sir you mean to say that Pakistan has not got enough money even to buy spare parts to enable fleet stay air worthy? please clear this question? Next time after a Balakot type like strike, I wish an F-16 Wreckage falls inside Indian border. Day it is done many myths can be blown away.

Even the US has some squadrons that only have barely over half the aircraft operational. The US produces all its own spare parts and has hundreds of billions in budget as well as a highly efficient supply lines. It wound not surprise me if the majority of PAF aircraft are grounded. They probably indeed cannibalize most of the older F-16s for spares so the few modern F-16s can be available and even then those modern F-16s still need maintenance work. PAF doesn’t have the luxury of money like America and with their (on paper) decent size F-16 fleet, aircraft are bound to need maintenance and overhauling.

 

[BON PLAN]

Even though it seems most logical and prudent solution, so far no signs are coming from Govt. for that. Spooked by their own campaign for self dependence during Covid onslaught, the Govt. is shying with announcing off-the-shelf purchase of another 36 as of now. May be next year, till the picture gets more clear about the fate of MMRCA 2, any decision related to another tranche of Rafale seems unlikely.

I am no defense expert or IAF veteran, but I feel 72-90 Rafales are good enough for India by virtue of its so called Advanced omni-role capabilities. Also, it will let the domestic sector with their own solutions grow and mature (may be not as capable as Rafale but they would compensate by quantity.)

It is rumored in France that a Rafale is to be completed (CKD !) in the DRAL factory in India.... (one of the 36 or another one, I don't know). So as to show that it is possible to assemble (and built some parts) directly in India now.

Another infor is that now that the DRAL factory is built, the minimum order to create a full assembly line is reduced. Before the minimum request was around 90 birds, now far less...

 

[Tupac slayer]

Even the US has some squadrons that only have barely over half the aircraft operational. The US produces all its own spare parts and has hundreds of billions in budget as well as a highly efficient supply lines. It wound not surprise me if the majority of PAF aircraft are grounded. They probably indeed cannibalize most of the older F-16s for spares so the few modern F-16s can be available and even then those modern F-16s still need maintenance work. PAF doesn’t have the luxury of money like America and with their (on paper) decent size F-16 fleet, aircraft are bound to need maintenance and overhauling.

Once we order another 36 aircraft, we can have an complete edge over Pakistan and increase the gap which already prevails, Induction of HAL Tejas in large numbers will also reduce pressure on SU-30MKI and Dassault Rafale which we can use for Deep Strike. Pakistan economic crisis is so serious, In this decade, Indian Airforce will induct several new aircrafts and Pakistan will not be able to induct, Pakistan may procure used F-16 from Turkey who would be obliged to supply a F-16's

 

[BON PLAN]

SH-18 chances are very high, given the goodwill earned by Boeing after delivery of multiple aircraft (C-17 to Chinooks, P8I etc) on time. Plus, they offered the F18 to demonstrate & qualify Ski jump on Indian AC. So far no such offer made news from Dassault Aviation regarding Rafale -M.

Rafale is just delivered. On time, with some weapons taken from the french stock, with an urgent delivery of HAMMERS... So the French team is full of goodwill also.

Boeing offered to test the SH18 ? so it is not made yet.... OK. They just have to do it and Dassault will follow !

My question was the technical and tactical IN opinion.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's the PL 15's NEZ is just 80 kM , and that's for sure's .

source?

It is unlikely.

 

[ARVION]

source?

It is unlikely .

Well I got this figure's of the PL 15's 80 KM from a Chinese forum's .

 

[piKacHHu]

It is rumored in France that a Rafale is to be completed (CKD !) in the DRAL factory in India.... (one of the 36 or another one, I don't know). So as to show that it is possible to assemble (and built some parts) directly in India now.

Another infor is that now that the DRAL factory is built, the minimum order to create a full assembly line is reduced. Before the minimum request was around 90 birds, now far less...

On paper, Indeed, There is a demand of over 100 "Rafale Class" aircraft (words of Air Force Chief).

Do we have enough money to afford that? I highly doubt ! Unless the Govt. makes separate provision for it to promote Make in India, IAF own budget alone can't sustain this procurement.

The window of decision making is also quite short; as around 2023-2024, India will go through General Election festival. As you might be aware, speculations around such large defense deals find good deal of flavor during the elections. So any major announcement during that season seems unlikely. Hence, 2021-2022 is the sweet spot for Dassault to push further sale of additional Rafales.

It would be also beneficial for Dassault to find some other partner for DRAL whose last name is not "Ambani" or "Adani". May be that would help in avoiding PR disasters in future.

 

[piKacHHu]

Rafale is just delivered. On time, with some weapons taken from the french stock, with an urgent delivery of HAMMERS... So the French team is full of goodwill also.

Boeing offered to test the SH18 ? so it is not made yet.... OK. They just have to do it and Dassault will follow !

My question was the technical and tactical IN opinion.

You must gauge level of media management by Boeing & their PR team as evident from my statement regarding Goodwill. You will find media reports indicating good feedback of IAF regarding Boeing products quite often even though they haven't tasted combat success in Indian theater yet (Unlike Mirage or Mystere).

Due to fold-able wings probably, advantage to SH-18 over Rafale as it might fit well into INS Vikki and upcoming carrier IAC-2. Ski-Jump performance and pay-load capability will be tested during the RFP stage. However, Boeing is proactive as having gained plenty of experience in dealing with MoD. Reports are available that says Navy is not happy with Mig 29K due to maintenance and availability issues. So, most likely these Migs will be shifted for shore base operations whereas the new naval jet will be deployed on active service at the carriers.

As of now, India has shelved the plan to acquire flat top 65K ton CATOBAR carrier. Right now focus is on procuring submarines to improve sea denial capabilities. This also reduces chances of early procurement of either SH-18 or Rafale-M. Over and above, the HAL is also pitching a delta canard twin engine fighter (still on drawing board) against the same tender. Given the activism related to Defense news nowadays, I can say that the naval fighter procurement is not finding any traction as of now.

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

By the way, the Paki Foreign spokesperson (quite a bombshell!! ) said that the 'balance of power' in the subcontinent will shift in India's favour with the acquisition of the Rafales. Really? Lol! What balance of power? There was never a balance of power. The Pakis must realise that they are nowhere near India in military power, never were and never will be! This oft used cliché reflects Paki self delusions of power and grandeur!

And Pakis say this acquisition will result in an arms race!! Huh? These Porks should know this race is between the Indian hare and the Porki tortoise! Arms race my ass! They sure are living in a world of make-believe! Jeeez!

She, the bombshell, meant that this is tactical weapon. What it means is that India was not in position of getting away with surgical strikes without repercussions. India can win a war against Pakistan but starting a war is not as easy as sending spice2000 to jihadis.

Paki fears that now even in limited conflict, they will be humiliated.

 

[A chauhan]

Some news is coming that 5 additional Rafales are going to be delivered before October this year and that they won't be deployed in Ambala.

 

[Tupac slayer]

On paper, Indeed, There is a demand of over 100 "Rafale Class" aircraft (words of Air Force Chief).

Do we have enough money to afford that? I highly doubt ! Unless the Govt. makes separate provision for it to promote Make in India, IAF own budget alone can't sustain this procurement.

The window of decision making is also quite short; as around 2023-2024, India will go through General Election festival. As you might be aware, speculations around such large defense deals find good deal of flavor during the elections. So any major announcement during that season seems unlikely. Hence, 2021-2022 is the sweet spot for Dassault to push further sale of additional Rafales.

It would be also beneficial for Dassault to find some other partner for DRAL whose last name is not "Ambani" or "Adani". May be that would help in avoiding PR disasters in future.

We should place the orders for additional Rafales either in 2021 or 2022, you are right about your assumption that No Government would sign a massive order especially in the election year, fearing scam accusations by opposition which is quite understandable. Mahindra Aerospace, L&T would be good, since L&T has already manufactured defence equipment.

 

[ARVION]

Patch worn by the Armee de L'Air , pilot's .