Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kshithij]

You should inform yourself first, before you get to conclusions. I oppose the deal, because of the insanely bad outcome for India in terms of numbers of fighters, ToT and industrial benefits. Which all are facts and not even related to the EF issue, but to the cancellation of the MMRCA deal and a result of Dassaults behaviour.

The EF only plays a role for me, in terms of proper procedures according to MoD rules, which requires a competitive bid and when you have 2 suitable fighters according to IAF requirements, it's only logical that both should provide an offer, can you deny that?

Wrt EF upgrades, you clearly are not following the P3E upgrade programme, which comes out next year, otherwise you would know how much effort is put in the fighter right now, contrary to Rafale, which mainly benefits from Indian and Qatari customizations.
The simple fact that French forces have to wait till 2025 for HMS, tells you a lot about upgraded capabilities and recent budget cuts also involved the F4 upgrade parts.

You are speaking abstractly. I will be surprised if someone gives away ToT for AESA.

If India is buying Rafale just arbitrarily for no gains, then it is retarded to do so. India could have ordered many other planes like Su30 for half the price

But, the way I see it, France must have offered something which other options didn't have. If I am right, it was Kaveri engine consultancy.

Otherwise, forget typhoon, su30 was far better

 

[Willy2]

@Sancho most of my reply wouldn't bb any different from most of the poster who already give replies of ur Q in various last post , my reply would open just another repetitive front .

About the Rafale and ET's future upgradation plan , I think just recently Dessault announced F4 upgrade for Rafale which meant to be materialize after 2025....It's mean French probably keep rafale active upto 2040 atleast , there is a high chance that Rafale continue to be the backbone of French military till 6th gen aircraft takeover .

And as u stated that P3E to rollout next year ,are these upgrades enough to fight F-35 ..which soon going to be primary aircraft in British--Italian airforce ? These upgrade probably keep it alive till 2030 , but once they lose the place of primary fighter ,there is high chance that it development might stop . Though there is still hope with germans .

 

[Sancho]

It's mean French probably keep rafale active upto 2040 atleast , there is a high chance that Rafale continue to be the backbone of French military till 6th gen aircraft takeover .

Just as EF is planned to be operational till then, that's why Airbus is offering the replacement for both, EF and Rafale at the same time.

And as u stated that P3E to rollout next year ,are these upgrades enough to fight F-35 ..

It doesn't need to fight the F35, but complement it! Again, you need to inform yourself more to understand the operational time lines of the fighters, the upgrade plans (search for EF2020 or P4E), as well as how F35 and EF are planned to be used (I suggest reports of the Trident exercise this year, very informative!) and not simply get into conclusions.

 

[Wisemarko]

Which is dependent on what ToT you are getting! Thales now plans to integrate RBE 2 AESA after production in France and at DRAL and therfore diverts the necessary minimum ToT, to do this basic job.
In MMRCA on the other side, the RBE 2 was planned to be build completely at BEL, which means you need to transfer the far more knowledge to India and the same was the case for FSO at Samtel, or M88 at HAL. So we are back to screwdriver ToT, because we made a bad deal, that didn't included credible ToT.


You have to differ between the possibilities back then and now though. In those times, India had no options and had to take, what especially western countries were ready to provide. We didn't wanted Jags, but it was the only fighter that was possible back then and similarly the ToT was limited to. Today we have more leverage, more alternative suppliers and can set the terms. The implementation of liquidated damages into the DPP is one example for the rules we have set over the years, just as the NDA now added performance based logistics, which both are based on lessons we learned after the MKI contracts and the issues around it. So you can't compare the past possibilities with today anymore, since we have evolved in our demands too.

Another series of pointless discussions:
If MMRCA deal was that awesome, why didn't it ever get signed? Because things that sound too good to be true.... are usually too good to be true.
(126 Rafale aircraft, full ToT, local production, weapons and support- all for $12-15 billion, LoL)

First of all, separate the MMRCA "offer" and the actual deal signed by India. There is no comparison between those two because one was a mirage and other is a reality.

Compare to what other deals Dassault signed for Rafales- not EF/Boeing/LM - just Rafale deals, and then only one can have a meaningful discussion.

 

[Sancho]

Another series of pointless discussions:
If MMRCA deal was that awesome, why it didn't ever get signed?

Because Dassault didn't complied to the RFP rules:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-631#post-1381120

Compare to what other deals Dassault signed for Rafales and then one can have meaningful discussions.

Or compare to what other deals Dassault lost, like in Brazil and you will understand what rip off the Indian Rafale deal was.
They got the same number of fighters, at lower costs, with an assembly line and ToT.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Or compare to what other deals Dassault lost, like in Brazil and you will understand what rip off the Indian Rafale deal was.
They got the same number of fighters, at lower costs, with an assembly line and ToT.

The deal was finalized in September 2015. Any Gripen flying yet above Amazonia ?

 

[Willy2]

Or compare to what other deals Dassault lost, like in Brazil and you will understand what rip off the Indian Rafale deal was.
They got the same number of fighters, at lower costs, with an assembly line and ToT.

SAAB is one of the biggest snake-oil seller ,it's exaggerated it's achievement in various technical front ,don't posses key engine-radar technology ,a sector where we are truly inferior to other strong nation .Dependent on American-Italian in various sector . Run propaganda against our Tejas ....
Also ,as tactical frog pointed , is there any Gripen-E over Brazil ? I heard similar argument with Mig 35 ...But IAF did't want that platform as it was not mature by then neither now .

Also ,my point is't key one. There are various far more important points then that .

 

[sthf]

They got the same number of fighters, at lower costs, with an assembly line and ToT.

Same number of significantly less capable fighters which at that time existed only on paper. If Brazilians think they got a great deal I am happy for them but for India it was/is a no go.

TOT for what? Engine is from GE, Radar is from Selex, Cockpit systems are from Honeywell and Rockwell Collins, HMD is from BAE, LDP is from Rafael and IRST is from Finnemechanica. Almost every single weapon system is of US & European origin.

Correct me if I am wrong but last I checked none of these third parties have extended TOT to Brazil.

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale fighter jet deal.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/rafale?lang=en

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale fighter jet deal for Qatar.

 

[darshan978]

I think we should remove ambani from this deal this main reason for making this deal look like scam.
We should make hal resposible for rafale production

 

[WolfPack86]

Qatar buys 12 rafale for 1.3 billion 109 million price tag for 1 plane. It seems like France reduce price of Rafale for second order. India must order additional 36 rafales. This moron prashant Bhushan even don't know that this is second order for Rafale from Qatar. Let this morons keep shouting and barking India must move on keep buying more Rafale.

 

[WolfPack86]

I think we should remove ambani from this deal this main reason for making this deal look like scam.
We should make hal resposible for rafale production

Yeah you are right we must remove ambani from current rafale order. India Govt must make hal responsible for manufacturing remaining Rafales in india. This is the only way that BJP can save themself from opposition assault.

 

[Armand2REP]

Qatar buys 12 rafale for 1.3 billion 109 million price tag for 1 plane. It seems like France reduce price of Rafale for second order. India must order additional 36 rafales. This moron prashant Bhushan even don't know that this is second order for Rafale from Qatar. Let this morons keep shouting and barking India must move on keep buying more Rafale.

Qatar already paid initial costs on the first order which is not as good a deal as what India received. If India orders second batch price per unit will be much less.

 

[Kshithij]

Same number of significantly less capable fighters which at that time existed only on paper. If Brazilians think they got a great deal I am happy for them but for India it was/is a no go.

TOT for what? Engine is from GE, Radar is from Selex, Cockpit systems are from Honeywell and Rockwell Collins, HMD is from BAE, LDP is from Rafael and IRST is from Finnemechanica. Almost every single weapon system is of US & European origin.

Correct me if I am wrong but last I checked none of these third parties have extended TOT to Brazil.

Brazil got loans for gripen. It was a good deal for them. Who else gives loans? But, no ToT. India doesn't need loans as the security threat is much higher

Rafale fighter jet deal for Qatar.

The problem here is that one has to look at the deal as 24+12 =36 for 7.4 billion Euros. One also has to add inflation cost to consideration as Indian deal is to be delivered from 2019-2023 while Qatar will get all its planes by 2020. India has asked for several modifications too. In addition, warranty for 5 years maintenance is given. Other things like offset, Kaveri consultancy deal etc are also to be considered.

Even with the off the shelf cost, the 7.4 billion for Qatar and 7.8 billion euros for India with 3-4 years of inflation addition will end up at the same cost. The offset, Kaveri etc is extra

 

[mayfair]

As pointed out, Initial Qatari deal was 24 planes for 6.3 billion Euros i.e. Euro 262 million per Rafale. The foolow on order as highlighted is cheaper, about Euro 92.5 million per fighter.

 

[Sancho]

SAAB is one of the biggest snake-oil seller ,it's exaggerated it's achievement in various technical front ,don't posses key engine-radar technology ,a sector where we are truly inferior to other strong nation .Dependent on American-Italian in various sector . Run propaganda against our Tejas ....
Also ,as tactical frog pointed , is there any Gripen-E over Brazil ? .

It doesn't matter what you or me think about Saab, what counts is, that they got all the benefits they wanted, while we ended up with business jet production parts. The simple fact is, that their defence aviation industry, will benefit far more from their fighter deal.

And their induction date for Gripen is 2019, just as our for Rafale, so don't fall for unrelated excuses, because the point was not the fighter, but the benefits of their deal compared to the loss we have with our bad deal.

 

[Sancho]

TOT for what?

You are asking the wrong question, because it's not important how much ToT you own, but how much you are willing to share!
Most of the Rafale techs are owned by French companies and still their ToT offer in Brazil was far lower than what Saab offered, because they were not willing to share as much. We see the same with US ToT as well.
Saab did not only ToT to assemble or maintain the fighter, but also included Brazil into the design stage of the twin seat version. And as shown in the SE MMRCA thread, Saab owns plenty of state of the art technology in terms of radar, EW, data links..., not to mention that the portfolio of Saab is not limited to the aviation sector alone. They are offering Brazil naval vessels in a similar deal as with the Gripen now too.

So purely in a comparison of the industrial benfits of the Brazilian deal and our deal, it's clear that we hardly gained anything. If you consider what we could have gained in the larger MMRCA deal, it gets even worse.

 

[Kshithij]

It doesn't matter what you or me think about Saab, what counts is, that they got all the benefits they wanted, while we ended up with business jet production parts. The simple fact is, that their defence aviation industry, will benefit far more from their fighter deal.

And their induction date for Gripen is 2019, just as our for Rafale, so don't fall for unrelated excuses, because the point was not the fighter, but the benefits of their deal compared to the loss we have with our bad deal.

Isn't Kaveri deal more worth than the ToT of Gripen? Whatever Gripen can offer is already with India. Why should India pay more for it?

If your real intention was ToT, why don't you speak of Su30? 55% by value is indian and it costs 75 million a piece with latest engine and radar. So, just 35 million forex per piece and a huge ToT. Gripen doesn't even compare

 

[Sancho]

Qatar already paid initial costs on the first order which is not as good a deal as what India received. If India orders second batch price per unit will be much less.

Not necessarily, because the Qatari deal seems to be an option deal, which should had been fixed in the initial deal.
Indias deal for 36 had no option clause, therfore any new order needs to be negotiated again. The only cost reductions, will be customisation and infrastructure costs, that don't need to be added. Flyaway + spares + weapons will still put it around 5 billion and if licence production cost will be included, it gets costlier of course.