Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

If the Engines are older engines, which are known to have problems but am sure there are many companies in the world (even honeywell) those can re-engine them with reliable engines. Even the Russians can provide newer engines if required.

The older Avionics and sensors had an issue, Russian products lacked marketing. When after the German reunification when Luftwaffe inherited some MiG-29 and were tested against F-16 and other planes, they got a shock on how advance the MiG-29 was, it could out turn then the best NATO dog fighter and do that with style,
Further their evaluation found that Russians had simplified the problems of their IR sensors on their AA-11 /R-73 missile. Thus the result was that, Russian AA-11 missile was more maneuerable, more effective and much cheaper to produce than the more popular and then "the best" AIM-9 sidewinder. The Americans were shocked.
And after that came the need to have different A2A missile. ASRAAM, IRIS-T came after this, Rather IRIS-T was developed using the knowledged gained by evaluating AA-11 archer.

Russian planes are built to last, even the air fields that they use are robust and with spares and things lying around, the logic is that during war, the air field will not be a clean scenario, and so, the pilots and planes are in a way what combat scenario air field will be like, You can see birds very close to Russian airfields, the Americans are scared of these.

Flankers & Fulcrums have inferior sensors and avionics than westetn jets; they have also poorer engines, but Russians always ready to offer custom-made versions as per client requirement. They are also cheaper. Russians also don't choke supply of spares on political grounds unlike NATO countries.

 

[smestarz]

Maybe the english wiki is different than French one
Read the Syria part over here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23#Operational_history

The MiG-23MF, MiG-23MS and MiG-23BN were used in combat by Syria over Lebanon between 1981 and 1985. On 26 April 1981, two Israeli A-4 Skyhawks attacking a camp in Sidon were shot down by two MiG-23MSs.[16] Russian historian Vladimir Ilyin writes that the Syrians lost six MiG-23MFs, four MiG-23MSs and a few MiG-23BNs in June 1982. One more MiG-23 fighter was lost in July. The Israelis also claimed that they shot down two MiG-23s in 1985, which the Syrians deny. According to Ilyin, the deployment of MiG-23MLs by the Syrians in October 1983 shifted the balance of power in their favor, as they were soon able to shoot down three Israeli F-15s and one F-4 without any losses. Overall, 11–13 Syrian MiG-23 fighter variants were lost in air combat from 1982 to 1985. At the same time, according to Ilyin, Syrian MiG-23 pilots shot down 12 enemy aircraft (including at least five F-16s and three F-15s).[4] These are some of the Syrian MiG-23 claims:[3][17] (it should be noted that no claims of F-15 and F-16 kills by any Syrian aircraft are recognized by Western sources.)

Anyway the best part is that a MiG-21 shot and damaged F-15 in aerial combat !!
I did paste this link yesterday
The Syrian air combat claims of 1982 have not been confirmed by Israeli sources,[18][19] which only admit that one F-15A fighter was heavily damaged in aerial combat by a Syrian MiG-21, but managed to land safely.[19]

What F15 (israelis? USAF? SA?) shoot down by Mig23 ? Never read or heard such history.

This is what I found in Wikipedia : "En 2011, aucun F-15 n'avait été perdu en combat aérien contre un adversaire, et les exemplaires produits avaient abattu entre 101 et 103 avions ennemis. Deux furent abattus par la DCA Irakienne durant la guerre du Golfe de 1991, un troisième le fut en Irak en 2003, plusieurs furent perdus accidentellement en opérations en Afghanistan, et un F-15E fut perdu en Libye en 2011."
"In 2011, no F-15 had been lost in air combat against an opponent, and they had killed between 101 and 103 enemy aircraft. Two were shot down by Iraqi flak during the Gulf War of 1991, a third was in Iraq in 2003 , many were accidentally lost in operations in Afghanistan, and an F-15E was lost in Libya in 2011."

 

[smestarz]

Which country fights and wins wars based on luck? Based on Operation Barborossa, it was germans lack of propr planning that can be considered their downfall. Small incidents can be fortune, where bullet fired a solider hits his hellmet and gets deflected and hits enemy soldier who was going to shoot him. but then this does not happen to all soldiers in the army does it?

Can we use the statement that Rafale for the L1 due to luck? Now there are more news about how it was propped up to be L1 and there was no element of Luck..

Also yes there was German were over confident, They did not even supply their troops with warm clothes for winter, nor the winter camouflage ... If you do happen to read, try to read this part too.

Fortunately for You, and for US, German begun Barbarossa with 3 to 4 weeks late due to the help they send to Italy troops in Greece. These 3 to 4 weeks lack at the end, just before winter, to take Moscow. And at those time, who take Moscow take Russia, because it was the great nood of train rails.

You were lucky.

But once again thanks for the help to beat 3rd Reich.

 

[smestarz]

No, he is French what more I can say?, and we can really expect replies like these from him. It seems most French live in small pond and feel the pond is the world. The moment someone goes outside the pond and sees how different things are, they get scared and when they come back, they are convinced by their peers that what he saw was all a myth and the pond is the only reality

It runs 4000 hours with 1000 hours inter-repair (before overhaul) according to UAC website.
You are too easy with telling unconfirmed and totally stupid shit.
Are you a mazochist?
Do you really like other people to point your nose into your own shit time by time? :biggrin2:

 

[sasum]

it could out turn then the best NATO dog fighter and do that with style,

It is due to the fine aerodynamics of the airframe of Mig-29, though there are other factors. I have myself stated it..@gadeshi will vouch for it. But Mig-29 looks ugly. It is like a rocket with wings !!

Even the Russians can provide newer engines if required.

Engine is the Achilles Heel even for SU-30 MK I. It has poor serviceability.

You can see birds very close to Russian airfields, the Americans are scared of these.

I find this part absolutely surreal and am completely stumped !!

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault Aviation ready to sign Rafale deal, ball in India's court

Dassault Aviation is ready to sign a contract with India at any moment, but the ball is in India's court, chief executive Eric Trappier told French daily Les Echos in an interview published on Tuesday.

The Indian defence ministry said in April protracted talks to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets were nearing the finish line.

"We are ready to conclude (the sale) at any moment, the ball is in the Indian government's camp," Trappier was quoted as saying.

Asked about reports in Indian media that a bank guarantee was required for the deal, he said that was not the case since the deal was already guaranteed by the French state.

Asked about business jets, Trappier said: "Business jets are a good barometer of the global economy, and, this year, it will be difficult."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dassault-india-jets-idUSKCN0YM0GB

 

[sasum]

Dassault Aviation ready to sign Rafale deal, ball in India's court

Dassault Aviation is ready to sign a contract with India at any moment, but the ball is in India's court, chief executive Eric Trappier told French daily Les Echos in an interview published on Tuesday.

The Indian defence ministry said in April protracted talks to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets were nearing the finish line.

"We are ready to conclude (the sale) at any moment, the ball is in the Indian government's camp," Trappier was quoted as saying.

Asked about reports in Indian media that a bank guarantee was required for the deal, he said that was not the case since the deal was already guaranteed by the French state.

Asked about business jets, Trappier said: "Business jets are a good barometer of the global economy, and, this year, it will be difficult."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dassault-india-jets-idUSKCN0YM0GB

The issues like consensus on actions to be taken in case of a material breach, stringent liability clause and guarantee by French side are likely to be discussed by our DM with French counterpart on 2nd June'16 in Singapore. So ball is still in French court.
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...677518&sig=APY536zdhjd6iypuQk6LvZXoVbFlpXQ9hQ

 

[Tactical Frog]

Nice that Parrikar and LeDrian can meet in Singapore ...

https://www.iiss.org/en/events/events/archive/2016-a3c2/june-4a2d/sld2016-70d7

The IISS will convene the 15th Asia Security Summit: The IISS Shangri-La Dialogue, from 3-5 June 2016.

The IISS Shangri-La Dialogue (originally known as the ‘Asia Security Summit’) was initiated in 2002 in response to the evident need for a forum where Asia-Pacific defence ministers could engage in dialogue aimed at building confidence and fostering practical cooperation. Today, the IISS Shangri-La Dialogue remains the only annual meeting for defence ministers from across the broad Asia-Pacific region. It also convenes chiefs of defence staff, permanent heads of defence ministries and (in a parallel meeting) intelligence chiefs from the region. It has established itself as a key element of the emerging regional security architecture, and maintains its status as the most important and inclusive gathering of top-level defence professionals in the Asia-Pacific. By providing an agenda that responds specifically to their concerns and interests, and by facilitating easy communication and fruitful contact among them, the IISS Shangri-La Dialogue has helped to cultivate a sense of community among key policymakers in the defence and security establishments of regional states and of those major powers with significant stakes in Asia-Pacific security.

 

[BON PLAN]

Go read my post #3820 page 191, read it again. I replied back because of your rants....

And then advised #3822. Tagged you in both the posts. I know you've read both posts didn't you???? but you choose to reply to second post.......

If you are able to counter any argument with trust worthy sources, please do argue in the forum. But don't post baseless statements ex. your post #3802

The fact is that russian tanks, russian planes didn't work a lot. And be sure that west exported products are like russian export ones : downgraded.
Syrian Russian tanks were destroyed by west israelis tanks in 1967 and 1973, Arab mig were shoot by dozens.
How many USSR and russian subs sank these 50 last years?
The only good russian products are SAM.

 

[BON PLAN]

Well, even if it has pyrolant combustor, the fact remains its exhaust gas is used as ram air in the ramjet. How can it triple the range? Ramjet will stop working once the pyrolant burns out. Of course there is small air inlet duct, but that cannot sustain ram propulsion.

??? Meteor has only to bring fuel with it. oxydizer is free : air. So it can burn more time for same weight => more range.
It's simple.

 

[BON PLAN]

It depends how you want to believe in history. When WW2 started, France had the best tank, with excellent armour and fire power, its name was Char B1 BIS I think. It was much superior to the tanks Germans had fielded, the best one being Panzer III with 50 mm gun.
Where France lost was tactically. The Germans fooled the French. The French depended on the Maginot line to protect themselves from the Germans, the Germans simply got behind these defences when they took over the Fort Ebem Emael with less than 100 Fallschrimjaegers (Parachutists) Thus the entire fort works of maginot line was undermined by just one German move into Belgium. Second point where France was lost is them not knowing how to use tanks. The french diluted their tank forces by putting them merely as Infantry support weapons, where the tanks are supposed to go with the infantry as in Second world war and to take down enemy strong points. The Germans massed their armour and used it as Steel Spearhead to drive through French forces, The German Tank tactics were much superior. The French were simply out thought. Thirdly France was still in that WW1 mindset where they build Trenches and the Germans will automatically keep fighting against the forces in these trenches. The Germans simply by passed these trenches and attacked the weaker rear positions. The Trenches and bunkers were left to the likes of Stukas and heavy field guns to take down over period of time. Once the forces in the trenches were without supplies or Command, they would surrender,

Against Russia the Germans used the same tactics successfully, but where germans failed was that the Russians were retreating more faster than Germans were advancing, This created a big problem of supplies which had to be brought from rear and hence the supplies became vulnerable. Further another mistake Germans made was divide their foces, they had two targets which they could take on, Caucus oil fields in south and Moscow in the north. Germans could take one at the time. but then German leadership thought that they could take both. This stretched the german forces very thin, all the Russians did was attack these thinned German forces with massed tanks. Here the Germans had better tanks, but the Russians took them down using numbers. Do remember this example if you talk about 36 Rafales vs say 100 Tejas, even numbers is a quality.


If you cannot accept the numbers, thats fine, as I said those can be debated, but then Rafale fanboys coming up with BS numbers without any actual source to back up.. dont expect my sympathies. And I wont be able to take the statement of the ex-Dassault VP at its face value.

definitely, french doctrine in 1939 was those of 1918 : totaly outdated. Our generals were old German counter parts were young. French didn't want to make war, Germans want to revenge, they were more inspired.

 

[BON PLAN]

Maybe the english wiki is different than French one
Read the Syria part over here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23#Operational_history

The MiG-23MF, MiG-23MS and MiG-23BN were used in combat by Syria over Lebanon between 1981 and 1985. On 26 April 1981, two Israeli A-4 Skyhawks attacking a camp in Sidon were shot down by two MiG-23MSs.[16] Russian historian Vladimir Ilyin writes that the Syrians lost six MiG-23MFs, four MiG-23MSs and a few MiG-23BNs in June 1982. One more MiG-23 fighter was lost in July. The Israelis also claimed that they shot down two MiG-23s in 1985, which the Syrians deny. According to Ilyin, the deployment of MiG-23MLs by the Syrians in October 1983 shifted the balance of power in their favor, as they were soon able to shoot down three Israeli F-15s and one F-4 without any losses. Overall, 11–13 Syrian MiG-23 fighter variants were lost in air combat from 1982 to 1985. At the same time, according to Ilyin, Syrian MiG-23 pilots shot down 12 enemy aircraft (including at least five F-16s and three F-15s).[4] These are some of the Syrian MiG-23 claims:[3][17] (it should be noted that no claims of F-15 and F-16 kills by any Syrian aircraft are recognized by Western sources.)

Anyway the best part is that a MiG-21 shot and damaged F-15 in aerial combat !!
I did paste this link yesterday
The Syrian air combat claims of 1982 have not been confirmed by Israeli sources,[18][19] which only admit that one F-15A fighter was heavily damaged in aerial combat by a Syrian MiG-21, but managed to land safely.[19]

I confirm. No such news in french wiki. Honnestly, never heard about so many losses. Specially against F16 and F15. (F4, A4, Mirage 3, Kfir.... ok)

 

[BON PLAN]

It runs 4000 hours with 1000 hours inter-repair (before overhaul) according to UAC website.
You are too easy with telling unconfirmed and totally stupid shit.
Are you a mazochist?
Do you really like other people to point your nose into your own shit time by time? :biggrin2:

It was a joke.
But you probably don't understand it. So sorry, humour is not learned.

 

[sasum]

Oxidiser is free for Ramjet not the solid motor. I have already stated Air-augmented missiles depend on supersonic exhaust gas of pyro for intake air of Ramjet. So life of Ramjet is coterminus with the availability of solid fuel available in the pyro.

So it can burn more time for same weight => more range.

you comparing Meteor with itself ? Does Meteor have a non-ramjet version? What is the range? 100 km?

 

[manutdfan]

Hello fellow utd fan, Mourinho appointed, no new player yet, where do we see ourselves next season?
I think the squad is good but needs together more.
Dont worry, Mata would be staying, He had to take down Mata to put in the likes of Hazard, Oscar and Willian into the mix.

Do give me time to reply to your post, and I shall be replying in parts if its ok, But nice to see a big post

yeah man i wrote a really long ass post. frankly even i got tired by the time i finished it up.
i'm ambivalent about Mourinho though. with his track record he'll drive out all the young players Rashford, Martial, Lingard, Borthwick-Jackson etc. i don't think they need any drastic no. of new signings though. a central defender, John Stones of Everton would be perfect. plus there are many good prospects in the academy. but i clearly don't see Mata or Danny Blind lasting beyond a year.

take your time for replying. i was also thinking on doing a small Rafale cost benefit analysis. let's see how that pans out. btw i'm still only 60-40 in favor of discarding the Rafale. your next post better increase that to 80/20 man

 

[AnantS]

The fact is that russian tanks, russian planes didn't work a lot. And be sure that west exported products are like russian export ones : downgraded.
Syrian Russian tanks were destroyed by west israelis tanks in 1967 and 1973, Arab mig were shoot by dozens.
How many USSR and russian subs sank these 50 last years?
The only good russian products are SAM.

Puhleeze, Indo-Pak wars showed Indian French and Russian planes were more than match for Ameriki made Planes of Paki airforce!
Mig 21, SU 7 were really good during that war. Infact if some online gossip is to be believed, Mig 21 was chosen for suicide mission against USS Enterprise in 1971

 

[BON PLAN]

Oxidiser is free for Ramjet not the solid motor. I have already stated Air-augmented missiles depend on supersonic exhaust gas of pyro for intake air of Ramjet. So life of Ramjet is coterminus with the availability of solid fuel available in the pyro.

you comparing Meteor with itself ? Does Meteor have a non-ramjet version? What is the range? 100 km?

No.
On previous posts, we were some comparing the 165kg Meteor (with stato as it exist only like that) with others same weight class AAM : AMRAAM (C or D) and R77. the latter with classical booster.
100km range is the official one. The real one is secret, as for MICA we know it has hit a target 67km far from a Taiwanese Mirage 2000, the official datas are commonly "60km"

 

[manutdfan]

Further their evaluation found that Russians had simplified the problems of their IR sensors on their AA-11 /R-73 missile. Thus the result was that, Russian AA-11 missile was more maneuerable, more effective and much cheaper to produce than the more popular and then "the best" AIM-9 sidewinder. The Americans were shocked.
And after that came the need to have different A2A missile. ASRAAM, IRIS-T came after this, Rather IRIS-T was developed using the knowledged gained by evaluating AA-11 archer.

dude don't forget the R-73 slaved to the helmet mounted sight exclusive to the MiG-29. even the Americans got the chills of their lives when they realised that the Fulcrum drivers could take out targets just by looking at it while they were busy pointing their nose at the Russians. which they later copied as the JHMCS. fact is Russian tech might seem crude & unsophisticated but is simple, rugged and extremely reliable.

Here the Germans had better tanks, but the Russians took them down using numbers. Do remember this example if you talk about 36 Rafales vs say 100 Tejas, even numbers is a quality.

amen brother! you are a mind-reader. there's this very interesting WW2 article on the net somewhere- sherman vs tiger. just google it as i don't have the link. it's basically a quality vs quantity debate. Steven Zaloga the prominent military historian had stated 'in battle, quantity has a quality all of its own'. my understanding is that in order to win the war, not just individual battles, you need weapons of acceptable quality in mass quantities to overwhelm the opponent. it's this thought that tempts me to drop the idea of Rafale completely but i need more convincing.

 

[sasum]

Rafale back in IAF`s USD 10 billion M-MRCA bid
Last Updated: Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 20:51
After being ruled out of the race
for IAF`s over USD 10 billion contract for 126 Medium
Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA), French contender Rafale
fighter aircraft has been allowed by India to take part in the
bid.

"The decision to induct the Rafale back in the bid was
taken by Defence Ministry officials during a meeting of the
Defence Procurement Board (DPB) held earlier this week,"
Defence Ministry sources said here.

Earlier, the French fighter aircraft was declared out of
the race after it was found lacking on certain requirements of
the IAF during the technical evaluation phase of the contract.

The recommendation of the Technical Evaluation Committee
(TEC), sources said, was not accepted by the DPB headed by
Defence Secretary Vijay Singh and Rafale was allowed to take
part in the competition.
After the DPB decision, the Rafale will now be allowed to
participate in the field trials of the M-MRCA, which are
expected to be held by the IAF at different places and
different weather conditions in India.
First Published: Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 20:51

——————————​

Can somebody throw some light on this 7 year old report?

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale back in IAF`s USD 10 billion M-MRCA bid
Last Updated: Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 20:51
After being ruled out of the race
for IAF`s over USD 10 billion contract for 126 Medium
Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA), French contender Rafale
fighter aircraft has been allowed by India to take part in the
bid.

"The decision to induct the Rafale back in the bid was
taken by Defence Ministry officials during a meeting of the
Defence Procurement Board (DPB) held earlier this week,"
Defence Ministry sources said here.

Earlier, the French fighter aircraft was declared out of
the race after it was found lacking on certain requirements of
the IAF during the technical evaluation phase of the contract.

The recommendation of the Technical Evaluation Committee
(TEC), sources said, was not accepted by the DPB headed by
Defence Secretary Vijay Singh and Rafale was allowed to take
part in the competition.
After the DPB decision, the Rafale will now be allowed to
participate in the field trials of the M-MRCA, which are
expected to be held by the IAF at different places and
different weather conditions in India.
First Published: Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 20:51

——————————​

Can somebody throw some light on this 7 year old report?

I wait my old brother Smestarz saying "because Dassault paid bribes..."