Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Upgradation of each Mirage 2000 costs more than a brand new Rafale in 2006!! Hard to believe but a fact.

But Mirage 2000 vintage 2015 is far superior to 2006 vintage.
Mica integration, helmet, multi shot radar, new electronic mesures systems....

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale in terms of unit cost ($62.1 million in 2006 prices) was the cheapest fighter on the market (even cheaper than the much lighter single engine Gripen). India finalised another deal with Dassault for the upgrade of 49 Mirage 2000s for a total price of about $3.32 billion averaging $68 millon per airframe - i.e, the mere cost of upgrading the single engine Mirage was more than the production cost of a brand new Rafale!!

In this case the guys who firmed the deal are..... idiot?

 

[BON PLAN]

I do not think IAF wants to evaluate F-16 and F/A-18 further. Excercises like Red flag are planned well in advance, and its not like the Americans plan it and invite india after Rafale discussions stall.
We had participated in Red Flag before and now a new set of new pilots will go to Red Flag and hone their skills.
IT is about giving pilots "combat experience" about flying with and against other plane and tactics.

Indians test pilots flew these two planes intensively during MMRCA trials. What's new? nothing.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sorry Eurofighter can beat Rafale any day. I have data for Typhoon too. I shall post when I will be free enough.

It's why english top brass don't want to train against Rafale ?

One of the last exercise, in Corsica : 7 wins for Rafale and 1 for english EF. And the one for EF was because the Rafale pilot flew under the combat floor.

 

[BON PLAN]

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France will ordered at least 225 Rafale.
Add the 48 already sold.

 

[BON PLAN]

Correct decision.
Others are doing the same.
UAE says Rafale proposal "unworkable"

It's only part of the truth.

UAE said Rafale proposal was FINANCIALLY unworkable. (they want more powerfull radar, 2x9tons engins, more evolved Spectra, but don't want to pay the price. OK ...)

After that UAE deal with Eurofighter.... at the end the proposal of Eurofighter was TECHNICALLY unworkable.

This is all the truth, Bro.

 

[BON PLAN]

There is one more variable. It may also include the cost of developing weapons.
Typically a major weapon system like a fighter is not only airframe but also associated things like ground support, training infrastructure, and weapons.

I think this is the reason they may sell Rafale to us at 90M but charge another 90M for weapons etc.

Whatever way we see it, Rafale should cost at least 60% higher than F-18.

But Rafale at least 100% more effective.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dassault was to help us sort out Kaveri and when the MMRCA deal was being finalised they played along and when Rafale was announced the L1 suddenly Dassault / Snecma laid the condition that the core of Kaveri has to be based on M88!

Dassault never involved in M88 dev. It's SNECMA job.

And where is Kaveri now? Probably with our help from a derivative of the M88 core, you may have a nice engine today.
Now Kaveri will be at least a turbo engine for ships and maybe for electrical generation powerplants.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nah, if the talks begin, we can expect the 1st SH's around 2019. Smart thing to do would be order 36 from the US under direct buy, the line is still open and Boeing can deliver all these by 2019-2020 if ordered right away, with a few parallel orders from the USN, the production would be entirely dedicated to India. The subsequent line in India can go online around 2020.

bargaining, even if beginning now, will never be closed for 2019. We are speaking of India, not of Egypt.

 

[BON PLAN]

UAE and Saudi Arab may buy Rafales. It's just a matter of time before Pak fighter pilots get acquinted with them. Thus our mmrca edge will be countered. That's why MOD is wanting to buy F-18.

Indians pilots flew F16. And PAK continue to buy it...

West flew Mig29. And it's always a nice fighter, even against west planes.

 

[smestarz]

In this case the guys who firmed the deal are..... idiot?

You can use the word idiot, we use the word Scamsters, Already the VVIP chopper scam is spewing out some names. And honestly dont try to even say that the french dont pay kickbacks. French are one of the corrupt in tthese terms by the way just for record. there are more than 11 bn dollar in swiss banks of more than 300 French citizens, and these are not declared to the govt of France.. why would someone do that???

 

[smestarz]

So price of Rafale always increase, and JAS39'price always decrease.... aren't you biased ???

It is possible, LRP always will raise the cost and for the past few years Rafale was produced in LRP

 

[ACE of Spade]

You Cannot rely on anyone, There is no guarantee that US would keep their words,
I don't know why people are hype about F16 and F18 which are started to phase out from every Air force

If we want some thing then we should work hard for it to achieve,
Instead of buying scrap planes like F16 and F18 better invest on AMCA

 

[smestarz]

But Mirage 2000 vintage 2015 is far superior to 2006 vintage.
Mica integration, helmet, multi shot radar, new electronic mesures systems....

True, Mirage 2015 will be better than Mirage 2006, but then are we upgrading Mirage 2000 to fly against someone who has the older mirage 2000? No one in our neighbourhood has has Mirage 2000.
What we are trying to say is YES Mirage 2000 (2015) is better than Mirage 2000 (2006) but then its still useless compared to F-16 Block 15 which is used by Pakistan or even J-10B used by China
These planes of PAF and PLAAF have better radars (J-10B has an AESA) and have longer range than MICA.

I mean I can paint a MiG-21 and make it look new, but then the point is how would it fare against the opponents which it will face? And in that case, MiG-21 and Mirage 2000 (2015) both will be cannon fodder, They dont have the missiles or avionics that will help their survival

 

[smestarz]

But Mirage 2000 vintage 2015 is far superior to 2006 vintage.
Mica integration, helmet, multi shot radar, new electronic mesures systems....

True, Mirage 2015 will be better than Mirage 2006, but then are we upgrading Mirage 2000 to fly against someone who has the older mirage 2000? No one in our neighbourhood has has Mirage 2000.
What we are trying to say is YES Mirage 2000 (2015) is better than Mirage 2000 (2006) but then its still useless compared to F-16 Block 15 which is used by Pakistan or even J-10B used by China
These planes of PAF and PLAAF have better radars (J-10B has an AESA) and have longer range than MICA.

I mean I can paint a MiG-21 and make it look new, but then the point is how would it fare against the opponents which it will face? And in that case, MiG-21 and Mirage 2000 (2015) both will be cannon fodder, They dont have the missiles or avionics that will help their survival

 

[smestarz]

If F35 use its radar, no need to be stealthy. And without radar use F35 is far from beiing IR discreet....

One min, are you saying that F-35 will be using its LPI radar and it will be detected, and rafale will never use its Radar? Take a situaiton, F-35 and Rafale are flying on oppositie sides. F-35 is flying with its Radar on, it detects the Rafale on its Radar, it aims with its AMRAAM and fires them The Rafale is not using its Radar, and since it does not have longer range missiles, its just trying to close down the range, so that it can fire using its missiles OR it can just disengage. F35 wll use its radar to guide its missiles to the Rafale, ... boom .. there goes the Rafale.
On other hand, Rafale disengages and saves its butt.
Now one thing I shall inform you, when both planes are on not using their radars, both will be dificult to detect, But F-35 has the advantage of range 1200 modules of APG-81 vs abt less than 1000 modules of RBE-2AA.
AMRAAM missile vs MICA (as you said before that France is buying Meteor for its customer and not for itself)
Thus how can the F-35 with longer ranged Radar and longer range missile be defeated by Rafale?
The only way it can do is only if it gets BVR but then if F-35 shuts its radar and goes about its business, how can Rafale detect it?

 

[smestarz]

Indians test pilots flew these two planes intensively during MMRCA trials. What's new? nothing.

They flew all the planes, So whats new? Most new might be in Mig-35..
Rafale also has nothing new than what was tested, most Rafale capabilities are in FUTURE and are being worked on. During the testing F/A-18 and F-16 had operational radar and rafale had a prototype, what changed?
One thing you do miss actually, During the testing IAF pilots were really impressed by the avionics package of F/A-18 and they went as clear as saying that F/A-18 had the best avionics package of all the competitors.
So as of now, as per IAF pilots who tested the planes. F/A-18 had better avionics package than even Rafale.,
So till the time the F3R upgrades are not fully integrated, till then at least F/A-18 has superior avionics package than Rafale and that is the IAF pilots saying so.

 

[smestarz]

It's why english top brass don't want to train against Rafale ?

One of the last exercise, in Corsica : 7 wins for Rafale and 1 for english EF. And the one for EF was because the Rafale pilot flew under the combat floor.

Just to put it blatantly French pilots are dirty and thats why no one wants to train with you.
One of the incidents happened during Red flag involving Su-30 MKI and rather than fighting the combat maneuvers as per the combat, Rafale pilots were seen chasing Su-30 MKI trying to sniff their emmissions and trying to build their SPECTRA data base. So the only intention of the French being to try and build SPECTRA librarry and not really to take part in combat missions. So there is no point really to train against Rafale which Eurofighter can beat easily.
People try to train with planes that are tougher or dificult, they dont train with weaker planes and pilots, by doing that you do not learn much. The French are eager to learn, but then Eurofighters know they cannot learn anything by training with French.

 

[smestarz]

France will ordered at least 225 Rafale.
Add the 48 already sold.

France was already cutting the orders, and getting the planes at LRP, Actually the order from Egypt took France out of big mess. Now we know how Egypt was able to pay for the order, by selling few of its islands to Saudi

 

[smestarz]

But Rafale at least 100% more effective.

In case of using against countries not having credible air power, even F-16 is supeior plane,
The test is when going against Credible air power.

Funnily, you do talk about how other countries are afraid to get into training with you, but then when in Syria, when the Russian planes are flying, the French planes are just sky shy. What does that tell you?

Maybe its that Russians have more fuel available for their planes than the French planes.. hahahaaha