Know Your 'Rafale'

Armand2REP

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Can't blame France for trying to sell Rafale. We don't want to sell Mirage-2000s since they are obsolete and we don't make them anymore. If India decides to buy some second hand, we certainty won't argue with it. Upgrading or spares is still money in the pocket.
 

Agantrope

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I still see this as losers cry.

So clearly eveident that French, Russian and Unkil flight are in back foot.

But 40 Rafale is still a juicy numbers and IAF should go for it and it not big deal for them to familiarise with the Rafale as they are already operating Mirages
 

Rahul Singh

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A French company offered to sell 40 of its state-of-the-art aircraft Rafale fighter jets to India
Like Ritesh said it is an old offer but it is older than 2009. Dassault started offering 40 Rafale on promise to deliver in short span way back in time when they had closed Mirage-2000 line...

Doesn't matter what Dassault may quote the reason IAF will not buy any jet straight away, they are in no mood to continue operating many different(origin) fighters in one class considering Rafale doesn't win IAF 126..

What happened to the last offer from sukhois for 2 squadrons of su-35?
MANC. Its here Rs 15,000 crore Sukhoi deal cleared
 

Sinjin

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"A French company offered to sell 40 of its state-of-the-art aircraft Rafale fighter jets to India for a bi-lateral air exercise on Friday. An Indo-French joint exercise is to be held somewhere in India in 2011 – 12. The offer was made by the maker of the Rafale and Mirage fighters, Charles Edelstennie, who is also the scion of the Dassult family. Dessult is a multi-billion French military and civil aerospace company."


What is the veracity of this source. Seems to be a 'hack' job. Also appears to be an opinon piece by some blogger/poster with no creditable sources, no verification by any reliable sources etc. Also note the poor spelling (Edelstennie instead of Edelstenne and Dessult instead of Dassault. Overall a poor and unreliable piece in my opinion and I wouldn't get too excited by it.
 
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Sinjin

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Also note when he quotes his Air Force source, the source at no stage mentions the supposed French offer. All his source says is that "the Frech officials have expressed their desire to bring the Rafale aircraft for the next joint air exercise."

I think the "the" I have highlighted above should be "their" as logic dictates there is no possiblity the French could manufacture and deliver 40 Rafales in about one year.

Therefore, seems like this bloke has got his wires crossed, is mischief making or has totally lost the plot!
 

sandeepdg

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IAF will not take any rash decisions like buying the Rafale or any other aircraft for that matter as of now, but I personally think its a good proposition, though its uncertain that 40 jets can be delivered in a year or so !
 

Yusuf

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HAL makes 24 MKIs a year and is upping it to 28. Rafales order books are not full exactly. so 40 birds in a year or so is entirely possible.
 

Rahul Singh

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I still see this as losers cry.

So clearly eveident that French, Russian and Unkil flight are in back foot.

But 40 Rafale is still a juicy numbers and IAF should go for it and it not big deal for them to familiarise with the Rafale as they are already operating Mirages
You are right, Rafale is obviously looking to gain upper hand by riding on IAF's problems. Nevertheless IAF will definitely say "thanks but no thanks" like they have said before...

And who is on the front foot ? Sweden ?
Sweden is on back foot only because of commonality with LCA otherwise Gripen seems to be click fighter. IAF giving Gripen NG a back door entry during trials in India shows multiple things and one of them is definitely that IAF considers this fighter as potent...
 

Neil

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does the offer mean that it will be well above 126 fighter in the tender or is it out of 126 fighters.....??
 

Rahul Singh

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As of now there is a plan for 3-4 follow-on squadrons. But all will depend on how well development of AMCA progresses, considering this program gets official nod.
 

neo29

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What is strategic forces command: In January 2003 the cabinet committee on security formed the Executive Council & Political Council of the Nuclear Command Authority to be chaired by the National Security Advisor and the Prime Minister respectively, who would thereon decide and authorize to push the nuclear button. The directives of the NCA are operationalized by the Strategic forces command (SFC) which formulates the nuclear war plan, handles the storage of India's some 100 odd nuclear warheads and their delivery systems.

The need for a strategic bomber: For many reasons and circumstances the country has gone through in the last seven years, for many strategic war plans that were put on the table for discussion at Sena Bhawan, for the failed missile tests marking them unreliable for nuclear delivery, the SFC has finally decided to order its own fleet of strategic bombers which are reliable enough to ensure a nuclear bomb delivery.

India's nuclear triad is hardly operational. The K-15 is not yet operational; neither does it have the range to hit Lahore, while safely sailing in the Arabian Sea. The Prithvis and the Agnis do not have the reliability that is required when you are shooting something like a N-bomb across the border. The Brahmos does not have enough range to hit Beijing, or hit Karachi without mobilizing the warheads far away from their trenches making them vulnerable to detection thereby losing the surprise and probably face neutralization. The IAF however does have the SU 30 MKI, MIG-29 and Mirage 2000 which can deliver the bomb embedded in Moskits or as gravity bombs, but in a war, each IAF plane will be committed to a mission thus not leaving the SFC with anything at hand to plan, rehearse and prepare for a second strike. So the SFC now needs its own aircraft to ensure that there are no hiccups at the time of war.

The Mission: So what does it take to air drop a nuclear weapon? Well the B-29 super fortress could do it. But times have changed. Today the bomber has to be stealthy, laden with the most latest of ECCM and jammers to be able to cross the border without activating the SAMs, It needs to be a robust platform and a heavy lifter to carry a 1000 pounder along with fuel pods enough to make the round trip from central India, say Pune. And at the same time it has to be a great dog fighter to be able to make its journey back evading the F-16s that would have scrambled by then. So one thing is clear, it needs to be a multi role fighter- stealthy, maneuverable and with substantial external load capacity.

Nothing but the Rafale: The SU-30 MKI is mainly an air superiority fighter, it is meant for defending, or to provide cover. While it does have the capability to strike deep inside Pakistan, it is much more vulnerable to detection, being a heavier, bigger aircraft. With a high RCS it doesn't really fall into the stealth category. The Eurofighter while being extremely stealthy and a great dogfighter, is not a great air to surface weapons delivery platform. The F-16 & The FA-18 super hornet have to be kept out of the SFC hangars I'm sure, considering that Pentagon is never, in all practical sensibilities, going to allow us to use them for Nuclear weapons delivery. MIG 29 is an old platform, already running out of steam and probably spares too. I don't think anyone is interested in buying a MIG nowadays. Infect after the merger, Sukhoi is not even interested in selling them. The Rafale is the Knight in shining armor. It is a proven ground attack platform, it has the best avionics, ECM and ECCMs, It's soon to get a top rated AESA. The cockpit is a pilot's dream. It's proven its mettle in Afghanistan, and guess what, has a carrier version too, just in case we start drooling"¦

Tools and reuse: However what really goes in the favor of the Rafale is that the Indian Air Force is more than happy with its older sibling – the Mirage 2000. In fact the Rafale had almost been finalized as the MMRCA, before the Americans got interested in the deal and the French quoted too high a price as a spoiler. The Mirage 2000 was used extensively to drop 1000 pounders with pin point accuracy at Kargil heights. India already has the capability to refurbish Dassault aircrafts. Rafale is going to be absorbed into the force mush easily. And it is also going to help us save a fortune on pilot training, tools and many reusable components.

Geopolitics: What is strikingly co-incidental is that the number of aircraft that have been put out on paper (40) as a requirement by the SFC exactly matches with what was offered by the French last year as a fast track deal. Sarkozy will be here in December; right after Obama would have made the MMRCA pitch for Boeing in return for 'something' at the Security Council. However the French have the guts and I'm sure the 'frank' will to veto it out. And that is why the Rafale will be chosen as the stallion of the Strategic Forces Command.


idrw.org security october issue
 

ashdoc

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india hasn't got money to spend on 40 costly planes just to carry nukes .
 

maomao

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india hasn't got money to spend on 40 costly planes just to carry nukes .
Please read your statement again and then update yourself about recent arms deals such as USD 30 Billion FGFA, USD 12-18 Billion MMRCA, something as meager as USD 2.2 Billion Mirage up-gradation et al. Then let me know if India does not have money to have a strategic fleet of 40-50 odd Aircrafts for Nuclear Delivery Role? And, BTW what strategic role our Mirage-2000s are playing currently for India?
 

pmaitra

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Nothing but the Rafale: The SU-30 MKI is mainly an air superiority fighter, it is meant for defending, or to provide cover. While it does have the capability to strike deep inside Pakistan, it is much more vulnerable to detection, being a heavier, bigger aircraft. With a high RCS it doesn't really fall into the stealth category. The Eurofighter while being extremely stealthy and a great dogfighter, is not a great air to surface weapons delivery platform. The F-16 & The FA-18 super hornet have to be kept out of the SFC hangars I'm sure, considering that Pentagon is never, in all practical sensibilities, going to allow us to use them for Nuclear weapons delivery. MIG 29 is an old platform, already running out of steam and probably spares too. I don't think anyone is interested in buying a MIG nowadays. Infect after the merger, Sukhoi is not even interested in selling them. The Rafale is the Knight in shining armor. It is a proven ground attack platform, it has the best avionics, ECM and ECCMs, It's soon to get a top rated AESA. The cockpit is a pilot's dream. It's proven its mettle in Afghanistan, and guess what, has a carrier version too, just in case we start drooling"¦
This report seems to have some inherent flaws and appears to favour the French. The Su-30MKI is very much a multi-role fighter and quite capable of carrying nukes. The Su-30MKI as well as the MiG-29, F-16 & The FA-18 are air-superiority fighters. The FA-18 was also designed for and has the the brief of ground-attack, which, I presume, is suited for carrying nukes. If the Sukhois' job is mainly to defend, then why is it not categorised as an interceptor? MiG-29 is indeed an old platform, but has potential for improvement to be called 4.5 generation. They can be modernised enough to have the strike capability into Pakistan, given that it can break the sound barrier while even climbing. MiG-29s were designed to deliver nukes, were downgraded when exporting to non-Warsaw Pact countries, and can be upgraded back to be capable of delivering nukes as well. I haven't seen too many reports stating lack of spares for the MiG-29. These are some of the loopholes I found in this report.
 

Vladimir79

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An MKI carrying a nuklear tipped Brahmos can do the job just as well. Launch the missile outside of the air defense and kaboom. Its range is just as good.
 

shaka

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SFC fighter should be one that IAF already operates or will operate in future. It has to be either MKI or MRCA. Reason being nuclear role fighters should not be easily recognizable, since these will be a strategic asset. If during wartime such fighters are seen flying these could be interpreted by enemy as if these are going for nuke strike even if they were not. There should be some anonymity. Just my thoughts.

Vladimir79, only 40 MKIs are going to be carrying Brahmos. I dont think these fighters are for SFC, since SFC request for 2 dedicated squadrons has not been approved yet and 40 Brahmos MKI deal has been signed already I think. I could be wrong though.
 

sandeepdg

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An MKI carrying a nuklear tipped Brahmos can do the job just as well. Launch the missile outside of the air defense and kaboom. Its range is just as good.
I think 300 kms is hardly a good enough range for a nuke-tipped missile ! You can hardly make a deep strike inside hostile territory with this range, it needs to be atleast 800-1000 kms.
 

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