Know Your 'Rafale'

[arya]

@KB :: so we should not induct any thing new and advance

well i am personally in favor for R.Engg .

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Anynews if we would get engine with more power or same engine????

They better hurry up with the Kaveri JV.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@KB :: so we should not induct any thing new and advance

Well one have to understand the threads and act accordingly, One should take the task no matter how hard to accomplish the projected goal in time, Before enemey have upper hand..

The institutional fear abt change have to be deminished by pushing things forward which will expose error in the system hence opportunity to deal with the errror to make a system efficient..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Anynews if we would get engine with more power or same engine????

They better hurry up with the Kaveri JV.

M88 eco as we know, But french do offer Kavari in Rafale, If kavari finish in time with M88 eco core..

 

[weg]

@KB :: so we should not induct any thing new and advance

well i am personally in favor for R.Engg .

No, it doesn't say that. He says it will be a challenge, thats all - but worth it.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

M88 eco as we know, But french do offer Kavari in Rafale, If kavari finish in time with M88 eco core..

Any beats that Kaveri will be ready by production date for Rafael?

I am some what skeptical but even if the Kaveri has 53kN its still worth useing the Kaveri over the M-88. I have no clue what will happen to that jinxed engine, do you have any info?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Any beats that Kaveri will be ready by production date for Rafael?

I am some what skeptical but even if the Kaveri has 53kN its still worth useing the Kaveri over the M-88. I have no clue what will happen to that jinxed engine, do you have any info?

Cant say, But lets see if happens its ok other wise we have to use two engines for two different aircraft..

 

[thakur_ritesh]

When viewed holistically from the above dimensions, the 'Rafale" deal seems to be seriously flawed. Ipso facto, UK, Germany and other EU collaborators are quite upset over rejection of 'Eurofighter' on both technical and low cost count. Even the USA is peeved over the rejection of their F-16 and F-18 upgrades. Its political, diplomatic and economic fallout is likely to be quite significant. In retrospect, the Western allies may refrain extending support for UN Security Council permanent status to India and support Pakistan's chorus as "Kashmir is the core issue" in sub regional context. Add to them, loss of economic aid, viewed as 'peanuts' by Pranab Mukerjee, is not limited to UK only but extends to other collaborators of the 'Eurofighter", who may still have a 'say' in the World Bank and IMF forums. The 'Eurofighter' could also be offered to Pakistan and others interested in gaining a security edge in the region. In retrospect, Pranab Mukerjee's jingoism and rhetoric appears unwarranted.

Letters to the Editor sent to Indian Express - Rafale´s Choice - Strategic Blunder by Brig (Retd) G B Reddy

Of all the things written by the good brigadier, this paragraph has been the most disappointing, one, coming from a retired IA personnel, and two, someone who got promoted past the rank of Lt. Col., its been very disappointing.

This sense of fear psychosis exhibited, or an attempt to instil the same in the mind of the reader of this article, in no way speaks well of an officer who rose to the rank that his gentleman did, Ajai Shukla exhibiting something similar, or attempting the same is still exceptable, but this from you sir, no please. I hope the good brigadier does put in a clarification, certainly on this paragraph, if not done so far.

 

[Ray]

He has possibly looked at the political fallout and not the issues of defence.

If he is the same person I know, I would say he delves in the realm of stratified thinking.

 

[ace009]

Hmm - wonder if IAF will start with M-88E and then might migrate to the Kaveri engine (if it ever gets ready) for the Rafale. They do have similar plans for the LCA.
IMHO, the whole design and planning for AMCA will be dependent upon the Kaveri engine.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Hmm - wonder if IAF will start with M-88E and then might migrate to the Kaveri engine (if it ever gets ready) for the Rafale. They do have similar plans for the LCA. IMHO, the whole design and planning for AMCA will be dependent upon the Kaveri engine.

Any beats that Kaveri will be ready by production date for Rafael? I am some what skeptical but even if the Kaveri has 53kN its still worth useing the Kaveri over the M-88. I have no clue what will happen to that jinxed engine, do you have any info?

Some thing related :

Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension

There have also been unforeseen delays in the joint engine effort by DRDO and Snecma for a robust 90kN turbofan engine, based on the M88 ECO core and meeting the minimum performance requirements of the IAF and Navy. Negotiations on technology sharing and intellectual property have taken the better part of the two years, though a top official confirmed that a contract between DRDO and Snecma is likely to be signed within the year. The joint effort, in effect, calls an end to the Kaveri K9 programme as it stands. What it does is propose to quickly build a 90kN thrust turbofan and offer it off the block to the IAF and Navy for their Tejas Mk.1s. The Kaveri-Snecma engine, in twin configuration, could also power India's advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), though that is still well into the future.

DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the joint engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country, though not for lack of trying.

Programme managers believe single crystal blade technology will be a major solution to one of the Kaveri's biggest problems — deformation of blades during testing as a result of high ambient temperatures. This has proved to be a severe limiting factor, considering that structurally solidified blades have structural integrity that comes nowhere close to single crystal structures. According to sources, it is negotiations over the modalities for single crystal blade technology that has taken so long, though the end is finally in sight. Several DRDO labs and the MDNL have tried for years to create an indigenous SCT solution, but so far without success.

The tie up with Snecma will launch the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) into an all-new league, and will involve modern forging, welding and casting techniques for the first time. Unlike the Kaveri K9 programme, the K10 programme (the official designation for the proposed effort with Snecma) will be professionally monitored from the outset, with hard timelines and investments. The work share model has been hammered down, and scientists are confident that they have extracted a competitive contract from the French. Initial reservations about sharing certain technologies were ironed out following the slew of military contracts that went France's way, the last being the substantive Mirage 2000 H/TH upgrade programme.

Almost the entire work force that has been dedicated so far to the Kaveri [9] will be diverted to the K10 effort with Snecma. Scientists foresee challenges in absorbing the technology, but are confident that they will achieve goals once the contract is signed and the effort flagged off. A senior GTRE scientist says, "We have the will and the base technologies. We understand fully well what our shortcomings are, and are eager to deliver a full performance engine to the customer. Gone is the time when we can stay in the lab indefinitely saying we will come up with certain technologies by ourselves. The French will help us cut down on development time. And we will both deliver an engine that will power Indian aircraft. Everybody wins."

Full article:
http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive...eeks-extension

 

[ace009]

So, Kabini-cored old Kaveri is dead - long live M-88E-based new Kaveri?

 

[Armand2REP]

M88 eco as we know, But french do offer Kavari in Rafale, If kavari finish in time with M88 eco core..

Most of the cost of the M88-3 deal with UAE is not redesigning the core. The cost was in redesign of Rafale to take the bigger inlets. It was over half the $1.2 billion snippet. An ECO cored Kaveri is not going to fit into Rafale without a redesign the same as putting in M88-3. France isn't going to fund it.

 

[Armand2REP]

So, Kabini-cored old Kaveri is dead - long live M-88E-based new Kaveri?

Looks like the GE F414 deal is dead too if Snecma core is going on Mk1.

 

[Sridhar]

MMRCA: Rafale will not be split with Navy
Published February 23, 2012 | By admin

SOURCES : IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Sources close to idrw.org have informed, that recent Media reports of follow up orders of French Rafale post 126 aircrafts actually will not go to Indian navy has suggested in media.

French Rafale which has won the MMRCA Tender after been declared Lowest bidder in the competition, and will enter into exclusive contract negotiation with the Indian government soon. Contract will carry a clause of possible purchase of 63 aircrafts post 126 aircrafts; after all have been handed over to Indian air force.

Sources mentioned that Navy have their own requirements for carrier based aircrafts but it cannot come has a follow up orders in the MMRCA contract since; Rafale M (Naval Variant) will be completely different in terms of avionics, and structural modification when compared to air force variant.

Sources also added that "Follow up orders for Bae Developed AJT Hawks is completely different since Naval Hawks will not be able to do carrier landings ". But a Naval Variant of Rafale will be a different aircraft all together and will require different contract with French if the aircraft is selected by Navy too.

Most Defence experts believe that follow up orders will be considered only if Tejas MK-2, along with Pak-Fa is delayed by few years. French and Government of India will start final negotiation in month of March and if every thing goes smoothly then contract should be signed by year end or early next year, if there are no objections from various departments which have to approve the purchase of the aircrafts.

MMRCA: Rafale will not be split with Navy | idrw.org

 

[Sridhar]

India's quest for the top gun
Published February 23, 2012 | By admin

SOURCE: LIVE MINT

With announcement of Rafale as the Indian Air Force's (IAF) next generation fighter, the "dogfight" among six of the world's leading aircraft seems to have ended. However, those unfamiliar with weaponization strategies might wonder how countries decide upon any weapon system. Is it simply a matter of the best? If so, what is best?

The answer isn't straightforward. The choice of a weapon system has less to do with specifics of its technical capabilities and more with imperatives of strategic doctrine. To understand this better, let's start the journey from a lowly assault rifle rather than a sophisticated aerial platform such as a fighter jet.

An assault rifle is the mainstay of infantry, i.e. bulk of the fighting force of any country, and has over 10 design parameters which are often contradictory. For instance, a rifle should be accurate, have long range, be easy to maintain, sturdy enough to survive the rigours of battlefield, have a rapid rate of fire, and easy to handle with one hand for urban combat. In addition, the weapon must be light, have compact ammunition of the same calibre as other weapons so that supply chain logistics are manageable. It must have the capability to be used in different versions, for instance, paratroopers need shorter rifles and infantry support groups need longer ranges. Each of these requirements contradicts many others.



For example, accuracy over long ranges means the barrel will have to be long and the rate of fire cannot be high. This in turn makes the rifle unwieldy and suboptimal in a fierce firefight. If the rifle has to be sturdy with heavy munitions then it can't be light and soldiers will tire before they enter battle.

Such complications exacerbate as weapon platforms get more complex. For instance, let's consider the battle tank. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (Nato) designers were compelled to build heavier tanks because their theatres are limited in space and their tanks had to be heavily armoured to hold ground without ceding position. A lesson reinforced by the German blitzkrieg when France was overrun in a matter of days. Also, Nato countries have comparatively low manpower though they are better skilled and educated. Hence, tanks such as the British Chieftain and French Leclerc were designed upward of 55 tonnes, have high crew comfort and the crew is "dual traded", i.e. each member of the crew is expected to know more than just his own job, necessitating higher investments in training and retention.

The Soviets, however, relied on a much lighter and cheaper tank of the T54/55 series, because they could trade "time for space". The Soviet strategy was to let invaders enter deep into the Russian hinterland—a situation they could afford, primarily because of their strategic depth—and then hit the supply chains through encirclement and, of course, the assistance of "General" Winter. The "Warsaw" doctrine, therefore, catered to Russia's strengths which are plentiful supply of conscripted manpower, manoeuvring space and the severe weather where sophisticated equipment had more chances of failure. These strategies are consistent with their assault rifles as well. While the West has relied on relatively sophisticated weapons such as the American M16, British FAL and the French Famas, the Soviets developed the cheap but reliable AK47 series.

The key to understanding these strategies is to appreciate that in combat, a weapon is never pitted against another weapon in purely technical terms. It is, instead, a combination of the technical prowess, soldier's capabilities, terrain and the national doctrine which decides the optimum arraignment of weapon platforms. So, while a sophisticated Heckler and Koch rifle could be an ideal weapon for highly-trained special forces, a much cheaper and rugged AK47 is better suited for mass infantry attacks, though on a purely technical comparison, the Heckler would outgun the AK.

Fighter aircraft are sophisticated weapon platforms and, hence, their inter-linkage is far more complicated. Modern fighters are expected to perform "omniroles". They have to be highly manoeuvrable for "air-to-air" dogfights, possess heavy lift capability for tactical and strategic bombing, have long radius of action, be capable of operations from land and sea, etc. Their supply chain is even more complicated, especially for India, which has a wide and diverse area of geographical interest. Fighters need air refuelling, naval carriers, multi-weapon capability, an intricate web of radars, airborne warning and control system, sophisticated maintenance, repair and overhaul facilities and indigenous manufacturing to minimize external dependence.

They also need synchronization with other arms such as the army and navy. For, while IAF may pummel the enemy and establish air superiority, it is of little use unless armoured formations can rapidly exploit this hole and pour into enemy territory. And the latter's ability to do that is contingent on their own modernization programme which depends on the country's threat perceptions and mitigation strategy over the coming decades.

Viewed from this perspective, it is rarely the technical superiority of any single weapon system that matters. Instead, it is the complex "organization for battle" derived from strategic doctrine which serves as credible deterrence. And deterrence is what it must be—because as any soldier will affirm, war is an ironic game. The only winning move—is not to play.

India's quest for the top gun | idrw.org

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MMRCA deal a shot in the arm for industry

The three companies that constitute the vendor team, i.e. Dassault, Thales and Safran, have traditionally a strong presence and relationship with Indian companies. For example, the Safran group has already invested a lot in India through companies like Safran Engineering Services, Snecma HAL, Turbomeca India engines in aerospace and Morpho Detection, Smart Chip Ltd in homeland security and more such inflows are expected.

However if the proposed new DPP 2012 or its immediate release in 2011 are applicable it would widen the catchment area including any product or Direct services relating to Defence, Commercial Aerospace or Homeland Security performed by any company of vendors choice licensed or otherwise.

"Of the $6 billion in offset money flowing into India, about 50 per cent would be spent on manpower. On an average of $20,000 per man year, this would mean 150,000 man years of new jobs in the defence aerospace industry. This would translate into 5,000 jobs in the3rd year and stabilise at 20,000 jobs in the ninth year. Also, all support services like maintenance, training and logistics have to be provided by Indian industries with the technology and knowhow of Dassault, Thales and Safran for the next 40 years. This could create an additional 4,000 jobs. The weapons system contract for the remaining 108 aircraft and its obligations could create additional 6,000 jobs. At the time of fulfilment my conservative assessment would be 30,000 trained, world class manpower would be deployed in Aerospace and Defence Industry. To put it in the perspective it is twice as many people we have now only on quantity," Ravinarayanan detailed.

Full article :
MMRCA deal a shot in the arm for industry

 

[Kunal Biswas]

About Dassault Systemes India:

Dassault Systemes India already has over 2,000 customers in automotives and aviation. It had added about 200 customers in 2011. The firm employs about 1,400 engineers in its research and development (R&D) wings in Bangalore and Chennai.[...] India is the firm's fastest growing market in Asia with the region contributing roughly 27 per cent of the firm's global revenues.

http://www.mydigitalfc.com/news/dass...technology-257

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Important Factor Of TOT..

 

[Kunal Biswas]