Kaveri Engine

[Eagle Eye]

Any news on Indo-france 130kn engine deal? When will current france president term ends?

 

[Blademaster]

Any news on Indo-france 130kn engine deal? When will current france president term ends?

Four years from now.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Any news on Indo-france 130kn engine deal?

It is still not finalized if we have decided to go with Safran for engine JV.
Rolls-Royce is still in the race.

 

[Eagle Eye]

It is still not finalized if we have decided to go with Safran for engine JV.
Rolls-Royce is still in the race.

after indo-france deal talkin news. RR came in. Dont know how serious,they are..

 

[Dark Sorrow]

after indo-france deal talkin news. RR came in. Dont know how serious,they are..

It was only reported by defense infotainment channels.
MoD/DRDO has not made any official statement.
French offer is way too expensive.
Rolls-Royce offered platform has a lot of scope. Don't know their pricing.

 

[Eagle Eye]

Rolls-Royce is still in the race.

Also we may get out of common wealth, i prefer france for strategic project.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Also we may get out of common wealth, i prefer france for strategic project.

Why?
Rolls-Royce makes really good engines. The proposal has massive scope of upgradation in future.
IN has decided to standardize on MT-30 for ships. This will help on common logistics.
Both British and French use German metallurgy and machining equipment.
From Indian POV we should be ready to work with either of them who provides better technology, know-how and pricing.

 

[MonaLazy]

www.financialexpress.com/defence/rolls-royce-in-talks-with-drdo-to-rev-up-amca-engines/2704355/

Rolls Royce in talks with DRDO to rev up AMCA engines
Rolls Royce has offered a Eurojet EJ200 version with 110-120KN thrust. The SAFRAN-DRDO joint venture is planned with complete ToT and is based on the M88 engine base type.
Written by Huma Siddiqui
Updated: October 8, 2022 5:01:13 pm

Rolls Royce has offered a Eurojet EJ200 version with 110-120KN thrust. The SAFRAN-DRDO joint venture is planned with complete ToT and is based on the M88 engine base type.
On Friday a team from Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) met with the UK-based Rolls Royce to discuss the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Engine.
DRDO-Rolls-Royce JV
Under this joint venture the Intellectual Property Right (IPR) will be retained by India for High Thrust Low bypass engine (110kn+).
According to the tweets from the High Commission of India in London, the Indian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom, Dr Vikram Doraiswamy, and the Director General of the DRDO, Ms Chandrika Kaushik, were in attendance during a presentation held at the Rolls Royce plant. And the images in the tweets indicate that the presentation was about AMCA Engine, as indicated by one of the posters. The picture displays the words progressing, collaboration and jet engine (Advanced?) core.


In 2021, Rolls-Royce in India said it is interested in collaborating with India to co-develop and produce engines for India’s AMCA fifth-generation fighter aircraft project.
It has been reported in Financial Express Online that in 2017 both India and the UK had agreed to cooperate in the development of advanced defence projects and this also included the gas turbine engine and air defence missile systems. And, as reported in Financial Express Online, there is a collaborative project Defence Research and Development Organisation and the British engine maker Rolls Royce on jet engine technology.
According to reports Kishore Jayaraman, president of Rolls-Royce India and South Asia, has said that if a partnership is formed, the Indian government will hold the Intellectual Property (IP) rights for the engines.

India will need IP to tweak and improve its engines in the future. In addition, IP ensures that engines may be sold to other parties and that the United Kingdom has no veto power over India in the case of geopolitical concerns.
According to company officials, Rolls-Royce feels it can be an effective partner for AMCA’s engine manufacturing in India. This area represents the future – to co-develop, co-manufacture, and co-create. And it is consistent with India’s indigenous design and manufacturing drive and the Atmanirbhar way.

Rolls Royce, according to Jayaraman, is devoted to the co-creation philosophy because, ultimately, when organisations co-create, they build intellectual property, and the IP is developed locally. When a product is designed and manufactured in India, it may develop its supply chain and services model. According to him, this creates a new atmosphere for the Indian aviation sector.

Competition with Safran and GE
India is in talks with Rolls-Royce, French company Safran, which powers the Rafale fighter, and American company GE, which powers the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas, over a prospective agreement to manufacture a jet engine in India.

While Rolls-Royce and Safran are the primary competitors, Safran has not yet fulfilled the requirements for Rafale fighter engines. The offset requirement of the Rafale deal includes the aircraft engine technology transfer. The plan addressed the transfer of expertise for developing an indigenous LCA engine; however, Safran has not yet fulfilled it.
Rolls Royce has offered a Eurojet EJ200 version with 110-120KN thrust. The SAFRAN-DRDO joint venture is planned with complete ToT and is based on the M88 engine base type.

On the other hand the United States’ interest in the fighter engine programme has lately been rekindled. Due to American reluctance to share core or hot engine technology, the India-US Defense Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) collaboration on jet engine technology was postponed in October 2019. Within the DTTI framework, a joint working group on jet engine technology was subsequently disbanded. However, in the first development phase of the AMCA project, a commercially available GE-414 engine will be purchased and installed.

Russia is the only other noteworthy engine manufacturer, “but their engines are inefficient, and Rosoboronexport overcharges at every stage,” says a senior officer who wished to remain anonymous.

There is no agreement yet in place between DRDO and RR, since the NGFA 110kn+ is not expected to begin development until 2030. Depending on the final cost of the engine project, a joint IP is also considered in addition to an Indian-only IP.

The need for engine IP
Explaining the necessity of an IP for the engine, Girish Linganna, Aerospace & Defence Analyst tells Financial Express Online “The engine intellectual property is a crucial component of the Indian engine development strategy since the engine may be modified to meet the LCA Mk1/1A re-engines needs and the LCA Mk2/Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TBDEF) requirements.”

“Approximately 250 GE-404 84KN engines are required to power the LCA Mk1/1A. India has ordered only half of the requirement from GE. The IP will enable India to scale up the Kaveri engine to meet the requirements of the LCA Mk1/1A and the future development of LCA MK2 / TBDEF, which would initially employ the GE-414 engine with a 98KN thrust rating. The GE-414’s other two opponents are the Rolls Royce EJ 200 engine and the Safran M-88 – 4 engine,” Girish Linganna adds.
These requirements were to be met by Safran’s engine obligations; however, as stated earlier before, the commitments have not been met.

Couple of points:
1. it is still Safran vs RR vs GE
2. We are just about a week away from DefExpo- any major engine-related announcement on the anvil? Something was slated in the postponed March schedule of DefExpo'22.
3. Whenever there is an out-of-the-blue announcement from RR- it is mostly to extract some concession from Safran. Last time it was IPR? This time it appears to be to have them honour Safran's Rafale offset requirements to get the LCA 84kN engine going?
4. Not much in the public domain about the American offer. There is surely no IP or substantial ToT involved otherwise the Indian babudom would have gone all self-congratulatory by now.
5. Earlier the engine deal was to be signed in March & the engine was to be ready by 2029. Now it will start in 2030??? That is a gigantic change of timeline if this article has it correct (personally doubt it tho). Also means AMCA Mk2 will be 2040+. If that is so, then there is space for more Mk1A/Mk2 and even AMCA Mk1 orders. Specifically Mk1A since that is a bird in hand.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

DRDO Team in UK for Jet Engine Discussion | Alpha Defense

 

[Vamsi]

www.financialexpress.com/defence/rolls-royce-in-talks-with-drdo-to-rev-up-amca-engines/2704355/

Rolls Royce in talks with DRDO to rev up AMCA engines
Rolls Royce has offered a Eurojet EJ200 version with 110-120KN thrust. The SAFRAN-DRDO joint venture is planned with complete ToT and is based on the M88 engine base type.
Written by Huma Siddiqui
Updated: October 8, 2022 5:01:13 pm
View attachment 175054

Rolls Royce has offered a Eurojet EJ200 version with 110-120KN thrust. The SAFRAN-DRDO joint venture is planned with complete ToT and is based on the M88 engine base type.
On Friday a team from Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) met with the UK-based Rolls Royce to discuss the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Engine.
DRDO-Rolls-Royce JV
Under this joint venture the Intellectual Property Right (IPR) will be retained by India for High Thrust Low bypass engine (110kn+).
According to the tweets from the High Commission of India in London, the Indian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom, Dr Vikram Doraiswamy, and the Director General of the DRDO, Ms Chandrika Kaushik, were in attendance during a presentation held at the Rolls Royce plant. And the images in the tweets indicate that the presentation was about AMCA Engine, as indicated by one of the posters. The picture displays the words progressing, collaboration and jet engine (Advanced?) core.


In 2021, Rolls-Royce in India said it is interested in collaborating with India to co-develop and produce engines for India’s AMCA fifth-generation fighter aircraft project.
It has been reported in Financial Express Online that in 2017 both India and the UK had agreed to cooperate in the development of advanced defence projects and this also included the gas turbine engine and air defence missile systems. And, as reported in Financial Express Online, there is a collaborative project Defence Research and Development Organisation and the British engine maker Rolls Royce on jet engine technology.
According to reports Kishore Jayaraman, president of Rolls-Royce India and South Asia, has said that if a partnership is formed, the Indian government will hold the Intellectual Property (IP) rights for the engines.

India will need IP to tweak and improve its engines in the future. In addition, IP ensures that engines may be sold to other parties and that the United Kingdom has no veto power over India in the case of geopolitical concerns.
According to company officials, Rolls-Royce feels it can be an effective partner for AMCA’s engine manufacturing in India. This area represents the future – to co-develop, co-manufacture, and co-create. And it is consistent with India’s indigenous design and manufacturing drive and the Atmanirbhar way.

Rolls Royce, according to Jayaraman, is devoted to the co-creation philosophy because, ultimately, when organisations co-create, they build intellectual property, and the IP is developed locally. When a product is designed and manufactured in India, it may develop its supply chain and services model. According to him, this creates a new atmosphere for the Indian aviation sector.

Competition with Safran and GE
India is in talks with Rolls-Royce, French company Safran, which powers the Rafale fighter, and American company GE, which powers the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas, over a prospective agreement to manufacture a jet engine in India.

While Rolls-Royce and Safran are the primary competitors, Safran has not yet fulfilled the requirements for Rafale fighter engines. The offset requirement of the Rafale deal includes the aircraft engine technology transfer. The plan addressed the transfer of expertise for developing an indigenous LCA engine; however, Safran has not yet fulfilled it.
Rolls Royce has offered a Eurojet EJ200 version with 110-120KN thrust. The SAFRAN-DRDO joint venture is planned with complete ToT and is based on the M88 engine base type.

On the other hand the United States’ interest in the fighter engine programme has lately been rekindled. Due to American reluctance to share core or hot engine technology, the India-US Defense Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) collaboration on jet engine technology was postponed in October 2019. Within the DTTI framework, a joint working group on jet engine technology was subsequently disbanded. However, in the first development phase of the AMCA project, a commercially available GE-414 engine will be purchased and installed.

Russia is the only other noteworthy engine manufacturer, “but their engines are inefficient, and Rosoboronexport overcharges at every stage,” says a senior officer who wished to remain anonymous.

There is no agreement yet in place between DRDO and RR, since the NGFA 110kn+ is not expected to begin development until 2030. Depending on the final cost of the engine project, a joint IP is also considered in addition to an Indian-only IP.

The need for engine IP
Explaining the necessity of an IP for the engine, Girish Linganna, Aerospace & Defence Analyst tells Financial Express Online “The engine intellectual property is a crucial component of the Indian engine development strategy since the engine may be modified to meet the LCA Mk1/1A re-engines needs and the LCA Mk2/Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TBDEF) requirements.”

“Approximately 250 GE-404 84KN engines are required to power the LCA Mk1/1A. India has ordered only half of the requirement from GE. The IP will enable India to scale up the Kaveri engine to meet the requirements of the LCA Mk1/1A and the future development of LCA MK2 / TBDEF, which would initially employ the GE-414 engine with a 98KN thrust rating. The GE-414’s other two opponents are the Rolls Royce EJ 200 engine and the Safran M-88 – 4 engine,” Girish Linganna adds.
These requirements were to be met by Safran’s engine obligations; however, as stated earlier before, the commitments have not been met.

Couple of points:
1. it is still Safran vs RR vs GE
2. We are just about a week away from DefExpo- any major engine-related announcement on the anvil? Something was slated in the postponed March schedule of DefExpo'22.
3. Whenever there is an out-of-the-blue announcement from RR- it is mostly to extract some concession from Safran. Last time it was IPR? This time it appears to be to have them honour Safran's Rafale offset requirements to get the LCA 84kN engine going?
4. Not much in the public domain about the American offer. There is surely no IP or substantial ToT involved otherwise the Indian babudom would have gone all self-congratulatory by now.
5. Earlier the engine deal was to be signed in March & the engine was to be ready by 2029. Now it will start in 2030??? That is a gigantic change of timeline if this article has it correct (personally doubt it tho). Also means AMCA Mk2 will be 2040+. If that is so, then there is space for more Mk1A/Mk2 and even AMCA Mk1 orders. Specifically Mk1A since that is a bird in hand.

This will be another Su-30 like scam by Brits. Using our money to develop their next gen engine, and babus are getting fooled again when they hear that we will have the IPR. I may believe in this so called co-development only if "Brits work here in India, in GTRE labs with our scientists, just like how Nazi scientists worked in USSR on Rocket engines, just like how Von Braun worked in US, just like how Kurt Tank worked here for HF24 & Soviet scientists worked in China post the fall of USSR " , if the development happens in Britain, then it's 100% scam.

Why can't people understand this simple fact, Anglo-Saxons are our civilizational enemies, why would a sane man help his own enemy.

 

[MonaLazy]

This will be another Su-30 like scam by Brits. Using our money to develop their next gen engine, and babus are getting fooled again when they hear that we will have the IPR. I may believe in this so called co-development only if "Brits work here in India, in GTRE labs with our scientists, just like how Nazi scientists worked in USSR on Rocket engines, just like how Von Braun worked in US, just like how Kurt Tank worked here for HF24 & Soviet scientists worked in China post the fall of USSR " , if the development happens in Britain, then it's 100% scam.

Why can't people understand this simple fact, Anglo-Saxons are our civilizational enemies, why would a sane man help his own enemy.

Days of Sukhoi "scam" are long gone. Just look at the fate of FGFA when long-standing partner Russia tried short-changing us. Besides, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It is for us to ensure the written agreement gets translated to action- in any case, once the future partner agrees to full IPR with India upfront- not much can be done later other than delaying progress. We have to make sure this engine is tied into their own upcoming programs like FCAS/Tempest. Pretty sure adequate safe-guarding measures will be in place.

 

[Vamsi]

Days of Sukhoi "scam" are long gone. Just look at the fate of FGFA when long-standing partner Russia tried short-changing us. Besides, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It is for us to ensure the written agreement gets translated to action- in any case, once the future partner agrees to full IPR with India upfront- not much can be done later other than delaying progress. We have to make sure this engine is tied into their own upcoming programs like FCAS/Tempest. Pretty sure adequate safe-guarding measures will be in place.

But Brits working in India with our scientists will make sure we gain the Know-why.

 

[vishnugupt]

Does anyone know how much Money Safran is asking for 120kn engine??

 

[flanker99]

Does anyone know how much Money Safran is asking for 120kn engine??

Saurav jha in one of his IAH said both rr and safran are asking around 7-8 bln but the main holdup is still on how much ip they are willing to give

 

[omaebakabaka]

This will be another Su-30 like scam by Brits. Using our money to develop their next gen engine, and babus are getting fooled again when they hear that we will have the IPR. I may believe in this so called co-development only if "Brits work here in India, in GTRE labs with our scientists, just like how Nazi scientists worked in USSR on Rocket engines, just like how Von Braun worked in US, just like how Kurt Tank worked here for HF24 & Soviet scientists worked in China post the fall of USSR " , if the development happens in Britain, then it's 100% scam.

Why can't people understand this simple fact, Anglo-Saxons are our civilizational enemies, why would a sane man help his own enemy.

This means we still have significant challenges in kaveri and core technologies around it based on the desperation to partner with Brits or Frenchies....may be there is no other way to get past than playing this game and getting screwed again but getting some solutions out of it. Only time will tell

 

[Vamsi]

This means we still have significant challenges in kaveri and core technologies around it based on the desperation to partner with Brits or Frenchies....may be there is no other way to get past than playing this game and getting screwed again but getting some solutions out of it. Only time will tell

Core is fine, they achieved care free handling That is why they will be using it for Ghatak. Afterburner issues like screech were also solved. All of this were made clear from that YouTube seminar in Jan.
I don't believe Brits will give us "know-why" of the hot section. This 110KN engine will be another Shakti engine. Cold section ours,hot section theirs. I really don't understand what's the point in having IPR,if we don't have the "Know-why".

 

[Vamsi]

@omaebakabaka @MonaLazy What's our work share in that helo engine JV with french. Is it similar to Shakti engine?? Cold section ours, hot section theirs??

 

[omaebakabaka]

Core is fine, they achieved care free handling That is why they will be using it for Ghatak. Afterburner issues like screech were also solved. All of this were made clear from that YouTube seminar in Jan.
I don't believe Brits will give us "know-why" of the hot section. This 110KN engine will be another Shakti engine. Cold section ours,hot section theirs. I really don't understand what's the point in having IPR,if we don't have the "Know-why".

My guess is our specialists need opportunities to observe more things directly and indirectly and one to one interactions at that level lead to understandings at technical level. This is how chinese interact in research and I have some first hand experience working with Chinese in my thesis years but sometimes you get more direct revelations in partnership like these....there are still some core technologies and probably a bunch of them that we don't have experience or expertise. We have not built any that are totally indigenous and engines require tons of hours of experience and failures as surprizingly not everything can be derived from theory nor can be explained. Trial and error and painful experiments and careful observations and innovative solutions to stubborn problems are quite common. I don't believe everything that our agencies say regarding capabilities, we simply have too many imported sub components but kinda mastered integrations. It is a good thing we spent so many years on Kaveri as long as they are continuing to learn, there is simply no replacement for hardwork to understand the "know why part"

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Core is fine, they achieved care free handling That is why they will be using it for Ghatak. Afterburner issues like screech were also solved. All of this were made clear from that YouTube seminar in Jan.
I don't believe Brits will give us "know-why" of the hot section. This 110KN engine will be another Shakti engine. Cold section ours,hot section theirs. I really don't understand what's the point in having IPR,if we don't have the "Know-why".

Even that would be fine if manufacturing of engine can take place entirely in India.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Even that would be fine if manufacturing of engine can take place entirely in India.

This is unlikely as generally there are lot of export restrictions and most likely key sub components will be black boxes and just integrated into rest of the indigenous interfaces. Normally these partnerships are "we develop x and you develop y and here is the overall design".....more collaboration but it is true partnership only if you are a major tier 1 player with established record and market share and also part of their vassal circle.