Kaveri Engine

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Do you have any evidence of this engine technology transfer that bypassed the law requiring the formation of a JV?

There is no law requiring JV. Technology transfer can be done according to the way the 2 parties agreed. In fact India will be better off if direct TOT is given a that avoid payment of profit in the future as in a JV. India had also asked Dassault to have similar agreement with HAL to assemble Rafale but Dassault refused to agree with it.

 

[Armand2REP]

There is no law requiring JV. Technology transfer can be done according to the way the 2 parties agreed. In fact India will be better off if direct TOT is given a that avoid payment of profit in the future as in a JV. India had also asked Dassault to have similar agreement with HAL to assemble Rafale but Dassault refused to agree with it.

So you have no evidence of a ToT agreement for the transfer of engine technology from UEC Saturn.

 

[Armand2REP]

Will Safran Kaveri JV happen or not

It is up to GoI. Safran has been waiting the entire time with documents ready for signing.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So you have no evidence of a ToT agreement for the transfer of engine technology from UEC Saturn.

HAL manufactures AL31FP from raw material stage each and every part without a single import. This was possible because Russia gave TOT. I know this much. I don't know whether there was an agreement with UEC or direct government of Russia

 

[Armand2REP]

HAL manufactures AL31FP from raw material stage each and every part without a single import. This was possible because Russia gave TOT. I know this much. I don't know whether there was an agreement with UEC or direct government of Russia

When has HAL ever made a turbofan?

 

[Kay]

Russia has given us know how of Sukhoi engines, not know why. Snecma had offered to troubleshoot Kaveri engine issues and offered their own engine core for us to develop an engine.
No one gives the know why and it helps improving on the product and designing improved product and will turn the customer into a competitor.
One of the reasons India opted out of FGFA was because India was involved too late into the design process to have any worthwhile design knowledge. All design decisions had already been taken and hence India would have gained no knowledge of the design process from the JV. That is why we told the Russians to finish the product and we can buy the finished product once it is available.
Only time someone will provide TOT is if they are not expecting further sales or there are other pressures.
We need to spend more on RnD.

 

[Kay]

When has HAL ever made a turbofan?

HTFE-25 (25KN) is under development. Similar core can be used for HTFE-35-40 (35KN -40KN).
They can power UAVs and trainers.

 

[Armand2REP]

HTFE-25 (25KN) is under development. Similar core can be used for HTFE-35-40 (35KN -40KN).
They can power UAVs and trainers.

If they have ToT of AL-31F why not make full sized engines?

 

[Enquirer]

When has HAL ever made a turbofan?

HTFE-25 (25KN) is under development. Similar core can be used for HTFE-35-40 (35KN -40KN).
They can power UAVs and trainers.

HTFE-25 can probably be tweeked to produce upto say 30KN but not 35KN-40KN!

It's a pity that HAL has such poor strategic planning!
HAL at this time is not in the market of UAVs/BizJets, but spent so many years to develop an engine for those applications!
HAL itself manufactured Jaguars & knows full well that the engines need replacement/upgrade soon. YET, it didn't plan to create the 40KN turbofan that it had a CAPTIVE MARKET for - for 200 engines easily!!

 

[Kay]

HTFE-25 can probably be tweeked to produce upto say 30KN but not 35KN-40KN!

It's a pity that HAL has such poor strategic planning!
HAL at this time is not in the market of UAVs/BizJets, but spent so many years to develop an engine for those applications!
HAL itself manufactured Jaguars & knows full well that the engines need replacement/upgrade soon. YET, it didn't plan to create the 40KN turbofan that it had a CAPTIVE MARKET for - for 200 engines easily!!

I think they were aiming for engines for HJT 36 and HJT 39.

 

[Enquirer]

I think they were aiming for engines for HJT 36 and HJT 39.

Firstly neither of them need 25KN; secondly, there's no guarantee of anyone placing orders on those!
It's a matter of getting priorities right.......that's all!

Essentially they built a trainer plane without engine; at the same time are also building an engine without a UAV/BizJet to go into!

This is what happens in PSU! poor decision management! And 'people' end up holding the bag!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If they have ToT of AL-31F why not make full sized engines?

Al31F is older generation engine. India wants newer generation one. Also,India got full TOT for Al31F only in 2014. India will develop its own engine soon. Kaveri engine if 90kN will be flown soon and 110kN engine is under making for AMCA & MWF. One needs to give some time

HTFE-25 can probably be tweeked to produce upto say 30KN but not 35KN-40KN!

It's a pity that HAL has such poor strategic planning!
HAL at this time is not in the market of UAVs/BizJets, but spent so many years to develop an engine for those applications!
HAL itself manufactured Jaguars & knows full well that the engines need replacement/upgrade soon. YET, it didn't plan to create the 40KN turbofan that it had a CAPTIVE MARKET for - for 200 engines easily!!

Are you sure that India wants to keep Jaguar operating for long? Jaguar is getting old and obsolete. By 2030 it must be retired. France has already retired Jaguars.

The HTFE is for Hawk-i planes. Also, the HTFE will have after burners which may take its its thrust to 35-40kN.

 

[proud_indian]

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

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I don't understand the logic of this. Is there another engine program for 110kN engine already in works? Or is it yet to start?

 

[proud_indian]

I don't understand the logic of this. Is there another engine program for 110kN engine already in works? Or is it yet to start?

No other engine development programme is running at present

 

[cyclops]

I don't understand the logic of this. Is there another engine program for 110kN engine already in works? Or is it yet to start?

There were some preparations being done for a 130kN engine a few years back.

 

[proud_indian]

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[AnantS]

. It seems Seriously GTRE folks are quite depressed and have lost confidence. Please go through this thread

 

[ersakthivel]

HAL manufactures AL31FP from raw material stage each and every part without a single import. This was possible because Russia gave TOT. I know this much. I don't know whether there was an agreement with UEC or direct government of Russia

there are some interesting tit bits,

I read somewhere,

SU 30 MKI titanium block machining is happening in india.

But the blocks are supplied from india. we machined it here.

So this making from RAW MATERIAL stage is another DPP jargon which hides more than its reveals,, like a bikini,,

If fuselage making itself involves such ,"convoluted raw material stage manufacturing". I dont know what is the state with Al 31 raw material stage???

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

there are some interesting tit bits,

I read somewhere,

SU 30 MKI titanium block machining is happening in india.

But the blocks are supplied from india. we machined it here.

So this making from RAW MATERIAL stage is another DPP jargon which hides more than its reveals,, like a bikini,,

If fuselage making itself involves such ,"convoluted raw material stage manufacturing". I dont know what is the state with Al 31 raw material stage???

We get raw material from Russia as part of licence royalty payment. The raw material is such that it is unprocessed and can be purchased from Africa, India etc too. Bit contract requirement is that india import them.

Nevertheless, the manufacturing is fully Indian. Since the raw material comes under mining, it doesn't require any special technology. Thankfully, India has found Titanium mines in India and hence Titanium can be obtained inhouse once the current batch of contracted Su30 is complete