J20 Stealth Fighter

[lixun]

Here is my post from 2 pages back with air marshall Nambiar clearly stating that the Rafale is heads and shoulders above the J-20. That alone should give CCP bots pause about the false claims about the J-20:

There are other videos of him as well as other IAF personnel who have clearly stated that the Rafale is more advanced than the J-20.
There are multiple articles that I have posted earlier about the issues with the WS-10 engine on this thread.
There are articles also posted earlier in the thread about how CCP military sensors are inferior, which is the only reason why they bought a token number of the SU-35 (to copy its tech) and S-400.
There are also multiple reports posted of J-20 being visible to Indian and Taiwanese fighter radars posted earlier on this very thread, hence issues with its RCS and RAM coatings.
The CCP military has also not figured out how to hide the radar of the J-20 from enemy radar, hence it is visible to enemy radar even in the front.
There are also videos posted earlier in the thread which discuss issues with J-20 maintenance and reliability (such as tire change on every landing) when operating from Tibetan airfields.
Please do go back and check all these articles earlier in the thread before continuing with the CCP military propaganda.
BTW, happy CCP day. It must make CCP bots so proud to be supportive of a regime which caused 55 million deaths in the Great Leap Forward:

Great Leap Forward - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And supportive of the CCP which killed up to 20 million Chinese people in the cultural revolution:

Cultural Revolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The same cultural revolution in which CCP officials killed and ate Chinese people in many massacres such as the Guangxi massacre:

Guangxi Massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And many of these same killers and cannibals in these massacres are now a part of the CCP leadership. But they would never lie in order to brainwash and control Chinese people through the use of propaganda and lies, right?

But best of luck to CCP bots, at least until the CCP turns on you again and decides to send you to slave labor camps, or kills you for your organs, or eats you.

You can say that CCP is cruel. I only want to say one thing. CCP has solved China’s food problems for thousands of years. Chinese farmers have land, their children have received basic education, and China’s rural areas have basic medical institutions. In 1978, China’s per capita GDP was only half of India’s, but China’s per capita life expectancy reached the level of Japan. Today, China uses half of India’s arable land to achieve double the grain output of India.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

I estimate the empty weight of J20 is 18.5-19t
WS10C thrust is about 15t
No one can beat F22 in wvr,

who did estimate it? you and your buddies in Chinese Forums?


In engines is not the thrust what matters, but the size and specific fuel comsumption.

Plus the estimation is also forum estimations.

And you are pretty wrong

Eurofighter did kill on simulated combat F-22 several times

Why? simple F-22 is to heavy, in order to have relatively good performance it needed very high thrust to weight ratio because it is heavy and boxy.

Eurofighter is smaller, weighs less, does not have a huge volume due to internal weapons bay thus its frontal cross section is smaller, plus it is closer to the sears Haack body.

It means in close combat will beat the F-22 due to high thrust and high lift

Same is le Rafale

head up display that shows F-22 on Rafale sighting system

get it agility is only result of high lift which allows high instantaneous turn rate, high thrust that allows high sustained turn rate.

Thrust vectoring only is useful in post stall that means added safety, lower RCS due to lower aerodynamic control, but turn rate is only improved 9%, no more

 

[MiG-29SMT]

DJ11 is bigger than you think. The parade shows only models. From now on, the progress of WS15 may be two years slower than product 30.

the jet pipe S-70 goes up to the wing trailing edge of okhotnick it does not happen in the chinese machine.

And Russia is developing a single engined 5th generation fighter, why? they have an engine now it is called type 30 and already has been tested in Su-57

Type 30 to be better than even 117 needs to be lighter, but have the same size of Al-31 and at least 2 to 3 tonnes more than 117 engine of prototypes which means it is at least 17 tonnes.

New Sukhoi light weight fighter uses a single type 30 engine, not 2 RD-93 like J-31

Why Russia did induct the Su-57 later? simple J-20 is a public relations theater, reality is the engine is not a true 5th generation

 

[lixun]

who did estimate it? you and your buddies in Chinese Forums?


In engines is not the thrust what matters, but the size and specific fuel comsumption.

Plus the estimation is also forum estimations.

And you are pretty wrong

View attachment 97732

Eurofighter did kill on simulated combat F-22 several times
View attachment 97733

Why? simple F-22 is to heavy, in order to have relatively good performance it needed very high thrust to weight ratio because it is heavy and boxy.

Eurofighter is smaller, weighs less, does not have a huge volume due to internal weapons bay thus its frontal cross section is smaller, plus it is closer to the sears Haack body.

It means in close combat will beat the F-22 due to high thrust and high lift

View attachment 97734

Same is le Rafale

View attachment 97735

head up display that shows F-22 on Rafale sighting system

get it agility is only result of high lift which allows high instantaneous turn rate, high thrust that allows high sustained turn rate.

Thrust vectoring only is useful in post stall that means added safety, lower RCS due to lower aerodynamic control, but turn rate is only improved 9%, no more

It’s no big deal to shoot down the opponent in the military exercise. During the exercises of the gust and the F22, the F22 can only carry an overload of 6.5G.

 

[lixun]

the jet pipe S-70 goes up to the wing trailing edge of okhotnick it does not happen in the chinese machine.

And Russia is developing a single engined 5th generation fighter, why? they have an engine now it is called type 30 and already has been tested in Su-57

View attachment 97736

Type 30 to be better than even 117 needs to be lighter, but have the same size of Al-31 and at least 2 to 3 tonnes more than 117 engine of prototypes which means it is at least 17 tonnes.
View attachment 97737

New Sukhoi light weight fighter uses a single type 30 engine, not 2 RD-93 like J-31

Why Russia did induct the Su-57 later? simple J-20 is a public relations theater, reality is the engine is not a true 5th generation

I don’t know why you are so fascinated by Russia. You have posted photos of WS15 flying on J20. If the Soviet Union is still there, the designer of su57 may be pulled out and shot. Russia is not the Soviet Union.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

It’s no big deal to shoot down the opponent in the military exercise. During the exercises of the gust and the F22, the F22 can only carry an overload of 6.5G.

excuses, what you do not really know is what is F-22.

F-22 is designed with stealth in mind, that means a boxy airframe, a big volume to carry internal weapons bays, this increases drag due to larger volume and cross section, and since is boxy its aerodynamics are farther from the ideal bullet shape, its rombhoid nose cross section

thus a true aerodynamic low drag aircraft is

or

the only thing boxy are the intakes but most of the aircraft are sears haack bodies

 

[MiG-29SMT]

I don’t know why you are so fascinated by Russia. You have posted photos of WS15 flying on J20. If the Soviet Union is still there, the designer of su57 may be pulled out and shot. Russia is not the Soviet Union.

you are excusing your self


aerodynamically speaking

Eurofighter is a pure aerodynamic design, not really a stealth aircraft, the trailing edge of the wings are designed to get better flat response

the nose is a cone a true cone of very uniform shape to reduce drag.

Get it, when a fighter flies it needs lift and power.

J-20 is a blend of aerodynamics and stealth it means aerodynamics are sacrificed, yes the fighter has lower radar cross section but aerodynamics suffer thus they need very high power engine thrust to counter the higher drag they generate and the heavier weight.

Rafale in WVR combat will kill J-20, in BVR J-20 might have the edge but if AWACS detect it J-20 is in disadvantage the irony is F-22 supposedly was going to replace F-15 the reality is F-15 is still in production and F-22 is not and by 2030 F-22 will leave the service but F-15 will have a 2nd generation operational, why if you kill aerodynamics and radars advance F-22 becomes obsolete

 

[lixun]

excuses, what you do not really know is what is F-22.

F-22 is designed with stealth in mind, that means a boxy airframe, a big volume to carry internal weapons bays, this increases drag due to larger volume and cross section, and since is boxy its aerodynamics are farther from the ideal bullet shape, its rombhoid nose cross section

View attachment 97738


thus a true aerodynamic low drag aircraft is

View attachment 97739

or
View attachment 97740

the only thing boxy are the intakes but most of the aircraft are sears haack bodies

Sir, since F16, energy maneuverability has become the mainstream of air combat. F22 and F16 have implemented energy maneuverability. In the subsonic and transonic phases, the powerful maneuverability indicates that the U.S. Air Force is far ahead of Europe and Russia in the military aviation industry. Although the Su27 has a central lifting body layout, its backward radar takes up a lot of space, which makes the nose gear move backward, the body height is too high, and the resistance is too large. Su-27 still has many problems, I will talk about it later.

 

[lixun]

you are excusing your self


aerodynamically speaking

Eurofighter is a pure aerodynamic design, not really a stealth aircraft, the trailing edge of the wings are designed to get better flat response

View attachment 97741

the nose is a cone a true cone of very uniform shape to reduce drag.

Get it, when a fighter flies it needs lift and power.

J-20 is a blend of aerodynamics and stealth it means aerodynamics are sacrificed, yes the fighter has lower radar cross section but aerodynamics suffer thus they need very high power engine thrust to counter the higher drag they generate and the heavier weight.

Rafale in WVR combat will kill J-20, in BVR J-20 might have the edge but if AWACS detect it J-20 is in disadvantage the irony is F-22 supposedly was going to replace F-15 the reality is F-15 is still in production and F-22 is not and by 2030 F-22 will leave the service but F-15 will have a 2nd generation operational, why if you kill aerodynamics and radars advance F-22 becomes obsolete

The design of Eurofighter Typhoon is a disaster. Eurofighter Typhoon is the first aircraft in the world to adopt a long-distance coupled canard layout. The long-distance coupled canard trims the operating system and improves supersonic maneuverability. In addition, the EJ200, indeed, achieves It has a very powerful supersonic performance, but the typhoon has poor subsonic maneuverability. The canard is far away from the main wing. At low altitude and low speed, it is an ordinary delta plane. Therefore, a small wing was added to act as a vortex generator. This design is at best the same level as the Mirage 2000.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Sir, since F16, energy maneuverability has become the mainstream of air combat. F22 and F16 have implemented energy maneuverability. In the subsonic and transonic phases, the powerful maneuverability indicates that the U.S. Air Force is far ahead of Europe and Russia in the military aviation industry. Although the Su27 has a central lifting body layout, its backward radar takes up a lot of space, which makes the nose gear move backward, the body height is too high, and the resistance is too large. Su-27 still has many problems, I will talk about it later.

you do not know what you really talk.

Su-27 is the pinnacle of 4th generation fighters, basically the best of the crop.

Among 4++ generation fighters Rafale is the best.

You want to imply this China bought Su-27, improved it as J-11 but followed american lead and now is the second air power in the world, that is pure non sense.


The Su-27 develops hysteresis thanks to its frontal strakes (LEX) and still retain taileron control.

its wing is designed mainly for Mach 0.7-1.3 speeds.

Rafale is designed with a very low wing loading, thanks to materials and general lay out, basically its wing loading allows it to dogfight with the F-22 on equal terms

 

[MiG-29SMT]

The design of Eurofighter Typhoon is a disaster. Eurofighter Typhoon is the first aircraft in the world to adopt a long-distance coupled canard layout. The long-distance coupled canard trims the operating system and improves supersonic maneuverability. In addition, the EJ200, indeed, achieves It has a very powerful supersonic performance, but the typhoon has poor subsonic maneuverability. The canard is far away from the main wing. At low altitude and low speed, it is an ordinary delta plane. Therefore, a small wing was added to act as a vortex generator. This design is at best the same level as the Mirage 2000.

Pure none sense.

Eurofighter is pretty agile, but it differs in that the aircraft has canards set as low drag

on the picture you can see Eurofighter has its wing far forward than J-20 and the canards set farther from the center of gravity, you critized Eurofighter but in Aerodynamics it is better designed than J-20.

However it is not configuration but wing loading what matters. see that Eurofighter has a sharper nose and its strakes are basically where the J-20 has LEX pretty much Eurofighter is a better aerodynamic concept than Eurofighter.

J-20 is fat and underpowered and if it is located by AWACS and ground radar, pretty much will be downed by earlier generation fighters

 

[Bhurki]

WOW, THIS THREAD IS SO INFORMATIVE.
NO FIGHTING AT ALL.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Sir, since F16, energy maneuverability has become the mainstream of air combat. F22 and F16 have implemented energy maneuverability. In the subsonic and transonic phases, the powerful maneuverability indicates that the U.S. Air Force is far ahead of Europe and Russia in the military aviation industry. Although the Su27 has a central lifting body layout, its backward radar takes up a lot of space, which makes the nose gear move backward, the body height is too high, and the resistance is too large. Su-27 still has many problems, I will talk about it later.

Dynamic lag, static and dynamics hysteresis in lift, pitch, yaw, roll moment, side force at high angle of attack. On the base of systematical wind tunnel investigations, flight tests in Su-ADB and Flight Research Institute (LII), the mathematical model was developed with using additional differential equations for parameters, which determine the scale of phenomena: local on profile, wing, or global, including whole plane from nose up to tail

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS2002/PAPERS/R72.PDF

Cobra maneuvre by Su-27 without thrust vectoring

Cobra Maneuvre by J-10 only possible with thrust vectoring control, dynamic hysteresis is better in the Su-27

 

[lixun]

Dynamic lag, static and dynamics hysteresis in lift, pitch, yaw, roll moment, side force at high angle of attack. On the base of systematical wind tunnel investigations, flight tests in Su-ADB and Flight Research Institute (LII), the mathematical model was developed with using additional differential equations for parameters, which determine the scale of phenomena: local on profile, wing, or global, including whole plane from nose up to tail

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS2002/PAPERS/R72.PDF

Cobra maneuvre by Su-27 without thrust vectoring
View attachment 97751

Cobra Maneuvre by J-10 only possible with thrust vectoring control, dynamic hysteresis is better in the Su-27
View attachment 97752

In the original design of the su27, the swept wing was used to obtain better speed and range advantages, but this is a rather extreme design. Because the swept wing has inherent defects such as low lift line slope, easy separation of airflow from the wing tip, and large induced drag during subsonic flight, the more this defect is reflected in the aircraft with high lift coefficient. obvious.

I know that many people don't understand. To put it plainly, the biggest problem with this design is that it causes the su27 to have an uncontrollable tendency to raise its head when flying at high angles of attack, which is the source of the Pugachev Cobra movement. That is, once the aircraft wants to raise its head quickly, it will raise its head quickly and uncontrollably, and because it is uncontrollable, the pilot cannot control the attitude of the aircraft, so it has no practical meaning in air combat.

The so-called "transonic trap" stems from the restriction on this uncontrollable rise. Because this kind of uncontrollability will quickly cause the aircraft to overload and increase, and the body of the Su-27 itself is not so strong, if the aircraft is not controlled to overload when the aircraft is maneuvering violently, it will easily disintegrate. Therefore, in the transonic range (0.8-1.2 Mach), the maneuverability of su27 will be strictly limited to below 6.5g.

 

[lixun]

Pure none sense.

Eurofighter is pretty agile, but it differs in that the aircraft has canards set as low drag

View attachment 97750

on the picture you can see Eurofighter has its wing far forward than J-20 and the canards set farther from the center of gravity, you critized Eurofighter but in Aerodynamics it is better designed than J-20.

However it is not configuration but wing loading what matters. see that Eurofighter has a sharper nose and its strakes are basically where the J-20 has LEX pretty much Eurofighter is a better aerodynamic concept than Eurofighter.

J-20 is fat and underpowered and if it is located by AWACS and ground radar, pretty much will be downed by earlier generation fighters

What are the duck wings for? Pitch control, pneumatic trim, and vortex lift generation.
The meaning of pitch control is very simple, controlling the increase or decrease of the angle of attack of the aircraft. As other answers have said, the effect of the wing wake on the efficiency of the rudder surface cannot be ignored. Placing the horizontal tail in front of the wing will avoid this problem. But such a completely different design will bring other problems.
Generally speaking, the role of the canard in this layout is mainly pitch control and aerodynamic trim. We know that as the speed of an airplane gets faster and faster, its aerodynamic focus will get back and forth. For a fixed-wing aircraft with a conventional layout, the horizontal tail is used to generate negative lift to press down the buttocks. For the canard layout, the nose is raised by increasing the angle of attack of the canard and increasing the lift.
The last is the vortex lift. For modern fighters, the utilization of vortex lift is an important basis for evaluating the aerodynamic design level of fighters. How is the vortex lift produced? Here we will talk about induced resistance. We know that as the speed of the aircraft gets faster and faster, the wings increase the sweep angle to reduce drag. Because of the sweep angle, when the airflow flows over the wing, it is not ideal to flow straight across the upper and lower surfaces of the wing, and part of it flows along the wing to the wingtip. In the wing root effect, the pressure at the wing root is always greater than the wing tip, because the air flow accumulates toward the wing tip and then diverges earlier. This phenomenon actually increases the equivalent angle of attack of the wingtip. When the speed of the aircraft increases, the equivalent angle of attack at the wing tip increases to a certain extent, which exceeds the stall angle of attack of the wing, and then a wing tip stall phenomenon occurs. The phenomenon of wingtip stall, the greater the sweep angle, the greater the speed, the more serious. At the wingtips, the higher-pressure airflow from the lower part to the upper part of the wing flips up, and the aircraft actively works forward to generate vortices.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

In the original design of the su27, the swept wing was used to obtain better speed and range advantages, but this is a rather extreme design. Because the swept wing has inherent defects such as low lift line slope, easy separation of airflow from the wing tip, and large induced drag during subsonic flight, the more this defect is reflected in the aircraft with high lift coefficient. obvious.

I know that many people don't understand. To put it plainly, the biggest problem with this design is that it causes the su27 to have an uncontrollable tendency to raise its head when flying at high angles of attack, which is the source of the Pugachev Cobra movement. That is, once the aircraft wants to raise its head quickly, it will raise its head quickly and uncontrollably, and because it is uncontrollable, the pilot cannot control the attitude of the aircraft, so it has no practical meaning in air combat.
View attachment 97753
The so-called "transonic trap" stems from the restriction on this uncontrollable rise. Because this kind of uncontrollability will quickly cause the aircraft to overload and increase, and the body of the Su-27 itself is not so strong, if the aircraft is not controlled to overload when the aircraft is maneuvering violently, it will easily disintegrate. Therefore, in the transonic range (0.8-1.2 Mach), the maneuverability of su27 will be strictly limited to below 6.5g.

Russian Su-27 manual compared to F-16 basically proves its superiority over the F-16, believe me as long as you do not post the Su-27 manual where it says that your credibility is zero.

see it has different altitudes and it has 9G overload

 

[MiG-29SMT]

View attachment 97755
What are the duck wings for? Pitch control, pneumatic trim, and vortex lift generation.
The meaning of pitch control is very simple, controlling the increase or decrease of the angle of attack of the aircraft. As other answers have said, the effect of the wing wake on the efficiency of the rudder surface cannot be ignored. Placing the horizontal tail in front of the wing will avoid this problem. But such a completely different design will bring other problems.
Generally speaking, the role of the canard in this layout is mainly pitch control and aerodynamic trim. We know that as the speed of an airplane gets faster and faster, its aerodynamic focus will get back and forth. For a fixed-wing aircraft with a conventional layout, the horizontal tail is used to generate negative lift to press down the buttocks. For the canard layout, the nose is raised by increasing the angle of attack of the canard and increasing the lift.
The last is the vortex lift. For modern fighters, the utilization of vortex lift is an important basis for evaluating the aerodynamic design level of fighters. How is the vortex lift produced? Here we will talk about induced resistance. We know that as the speed of the aircraft gets faster and faster, the wings increase the sweep angle to reduce drag. Because of the sweep angle, when the airflow flows over the wing, it is not ideal to flow straight across the upper and lower surfaces of the wing, and part of it flows along the wing to the wingtip. In the wing root effect, the pressure at the wing root is always greater than the wing tip, because the air flow accumulates toward the wing tip and then diverges earlier. This phenomenon actually increases the equivalent angle of attack of the wingtip. When the speed of the aircraft increases, the equivalent angle of attack at the wing tip increases to a certain extent, which exceeds the stall angle of attack of the wing, and then a wing tip stall phenomenon occurs. The phenomenon of wingtip stall, the greater the sweep angle, the greater the speed, the more serious. At the wingtips, the higher-pressure airflow from the lower part to the upper part of the wing flips up, and the aircraft actively works forward to generate vortices.

you did not say anything, basically you did not address anything, because you can not understand like all the chinese forum members, the canard on J-20 was set upon stealth considerations not aerodynamics, ideally it should be like Rafale or IAI Lavi if you want agility at high AoA or set as X-31 or Eurofighter as trim control

 

[lixun]

View attachment 97756

Russian Su-27 manual compared to F-16 basically proves its superiority over the F-16, believe me as long as you do not post the Su-27 manual where it says that your credibility is zero.

see it has different altitudes and it has 9G overload

 

[MiG-29SMT]

View attachment 97762
View attachment 97763
View attachment 97764
View attachment 97765

of course you did not care to check altitude

the manual on page 45 has 200 meters altitude and another detail 200 meters is sea level and at that speeds all the aircraft have Mach 1.2 limitation in speed, you can see the limit in russian for 200 meters tops at 1400km/h got it?

It says max G after mach 0.85 7.5 G this original from Su-27 Manual

 

[lixun]

of course you did not care to check altitude

View attachment 97766

the manual on page 45 has 200 meters altitude and another detail 200 meters is sea level and at that speeds all the aircraft have Mach 1.2 limitation in speed, you can see the limit in russian for 200 meters tops at 1400km/h got it?

I'm talking about overload, not speed