J20 Stealth Fighter

[HariPrasad-1]

Chinese Philosophy behind building J 20


A:Let us build a Military jet as US and Russia builds it. They build fifth generation jet so we also need to to build a fifth generation one.

B: But that requires a lots of R & D

A: Copy something from US or Russia.

B: We have already done this in J31 from F 35.

A; OK, Make something similar to F22.

B: We are unable to steal the design.

A: OK make something similar. No problem if it is not real fifth generation. Give some angles and make it look like fifth generation.

B: We have some European planes with very low observability like Rafale and EF.

A; What is different in those planes?

B: They have canard.

A; OK put canard.

B: What about engine.

A: Copy Russian one.

B: We tried but it is not easy.

A: Put Russian engine and announce that we are building a more powerful version. This is stop gap.

B: OK what about other stuff and design.

A : steal and accommodate.

B: We are unable to steal everything.

A; Put chinese mall and announce it is best.

After some time

B: We made the design but it is very tough.

A: No problem, put all LRUs in best way you can.

B: But that will increase the size of plane and it will no longer be stealthy.

A: No problem, make it and announce that it is F 22 killer. We have a big 50 cent army to do all propaganda and cheer leader Pakistanis to support us. We can sell it to PAF by bribing some generals.

B: OK Sir I got it.

 

[J20!]

Chinese Philosophy behind building J 20


A:Let us build a Military jet as US and Russia builds it. They build fifth generation jet so we also need to to build a fifth generation one.

B: But that requires a lots of R & D

A: Copy something from US or Russia.

B: We have already done this in J31 from F 35.

A; OK, Make something similar to F22.

B: We are unable to steal the design.

A: OK make something similar. No problem if it is not real fifth generation. Give some angles and make it look like fifth generation.

B: We have some European planes with very low observability like Rafale and EF.

A; What is different in those planes?

B: They have canard.

A; OK put canard.

B: What about engine.

A: Copy Russian one.

B: We tried but it is not easy.

A: Put Russian engine and announce that we are building a more powerful version. This is stop gap.

B: OK what about other stuff and design.

A : steal and accommodate.

B: We are unable to steal everything.

A; Put chinese mall and announce it is best.

After some time

B: We made the design but it is very tough.

A: No problem, put all LRUs in best way you can.

B: But that will increase the size of plane and it will no longer be stealthy.

A: No problem, make it and announce that it is F 22 killer. We have a big 50 cent army to do all propaganda and cheer leader Pakistanis to support us. We can sell it to PAF by bribing some generals.

B: OK Sir I got it.

That reads like the decision making process of a 3 year old. Why fanboys believe that a multi-billion dollar defense programme can run like this is beyond reason. Nice one mate. Pat yourself on the back.

 

[Krusty]

Who are you trying to convince with spacious argument and counter attack.

Yes India is importing the kind of planes it is not producing itself.
China is importing kind of planes that it is producing itself.

Not only planes. Why is China buying the s400 when it has its own HQ9? Infact, China was the first in line for the system as soon as the Russian MOD cleared it for foreign sales. @Martian yet to explain it.

 

[J20!]

Nice way of retaliation!
We are very new in aircraft production industry.
Adding, our production rate is too low as well. And yes, we too are yet to have some advanced techs, behind China.

I have no shame in admitting that.

I wasn't trying to retaliate or be abrasive, just illustrating what "low confidence in local defense manufacturing" actually looks like.

Again, 24 Su35's have been procured. Not the hundreds that would be necessary to shift the balance of power in East Asia. I don't understand how that invalidates the J20? The two jets are incomparable.

If the PLAAF suddenly wanted to join the PAK FA project, I'd understand the logic being pushed here, but the PLAAF rejected the PAK FA before India joined that programme. That was back in the early 2000's when US reports on the PLA where still calling the J20 project JXX.

Now its 2017, the J20 is in LRIP and people are pulling at straws to make fun of a jet that by all accounts their own industry could not produce in the next decade. It's a perplexing point of view.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Balance of power to East Asia.

It's already, add Asia Pacific and compare with rest of world.

Problem is that we are divided over interests.

The two jets are incomparable.

You guys will again steal their intellectual property otherwise you would not have purchased in small numbers.

This time I would ask to at least pay them for copyright at least, Russians aren't going very good with economy these days!:biggrin2:

 

[Bornubus]

Hmmm so Chinese (Commumist Regime) is so cheap that they happily give their women to Foreigners so that they can stole Trade and intellectual property secrets lol


Xi Jinpig have no shame

 

[J20!]

It's already, add Asia Pacific and compare with rest of world.

Problem is that we are divided over interests.
You guys will again steal their intellectual property otherwise you would not have purchased in small numbers.

This time I would ask to at least pay them for copyright at least, Russians aren't going very good with economy these days!:biggrin2:

EXACTLY.

If anything that small order of SU35's is to either have a closer, hands-on look at the jet's very complex FBW system for incorporation into other Chinese jets or its engines or even its ECM suite.

There have been pics of the J11D prototype floating around for two years or more, but nothing more than that. Is the SU 35 purchase an attempt to make the J11D more competitive by Shengyang Corp?

Replication aside, as I said before, 24 SU 35's don't lend much to the PLAAF in terms of combat strength vis-a-vis the US and Japan, but 24 SU 35's can make up a decent aggressor squadron for training and developing tactics for the PLAAF. Simulating advanced US and Japanese 4+ gen fighters would allow for comprehensive training for the the Air Force and Navy.

But others here would rather make ridiculous comments about how 24 Su35's are going to replace the J20(a 5th gen jet) and hundreds of locally manufactured 4th generation jets that are currently being produced at break neck speeds every year. Common sense is not as common as you'd think mate. Kudos!

 

[sthf]

@Martian yet to explain it.

Don't count on him to explain shit. He is a propaganda insurgent, i.e. hit & run guy. Everytime you corner him, he'll stop replying. Same goes for all the Chinese loudmouths who were shouting at the top of their voice for years that;

1) HQ9 is better than S300 & S400.
2) Chini ripoffs of Su27 & Su30 are FAAAR superior to their Russian and by extension Indian counterparts. J-11D or whatever is superior to Su35.
3) And thus in light of the above mentioned points, China has surpassed Russia in military tech and WILL NEVER EVER BUY RUSSIAN WEAPONS.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

That reads like the decision making process of a 3 year old. Why fanboys believe that a multi-billion dollar defense programme can run like this is beyond reason. Nice one mate. Pat yourself on the back.

Fanboys belive that if multi billion dollar is spend than their product is world class without realising that it is just an addition to that crap inventory and not good for anything. Like that junk series, it will not get any customer. Like the case of su 30 and su35, China will once again rush to Russia for some plane for balance of power as Chinese subs and planes are junk. Pakistan withdrew jf17 to avoid comparison with Tejas. In threat evaluation of India, j 20 is placed much bellow Chinese su 30 and su 35. It will have no chance against Rafale or Tejas mk1+ or mk2.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I wasn't trying to retaliate or be abrasive, just illustrating what "low confidence in local defense manufacturing" actually looks like.

Again, 24 Su35's have been procured. Not the hundreds that would be necessary to shift the balance of power in East Asia. I don't understand how that invalidates the J20? The two jets are incomparable.

If the PLAAF suddenly wanted to join the PAK FA project, I'd understand the logic being pushed here, but the PLAAF rejected the PAK FA before India joined that programme. That was back in the early 2000's when US reports on the PLA where still calling the J20 project JXX.

Now its 2017, the J20 is in LRIP and people are pulling at straws to make fun of a jet that by all accounts their own industry could not produce in the next decade. It's a perplexing point of view.

When a country claim to have 2 fifth generation planes and beg for fourth generation plane after the claim of their superiority, question alyas emerged that why they do this. Realty is different from false claim and hype. J 10 is a third rate plane and our upgraded Mirage will defeat it any day.

 

[J20!]

When a country claim to have 2 fifth generation planes and beg for fourth generation plane after the claim of their superiority, question alyas emerged that why they do this. Realty is different from false claim and hype. J 10 is a third rate plane and our upgraded Mirage will defeat it any day.

Fanboys belive that if multi billion dollar is spend than their product is world class without realising that it is just an addition to that crap inventory and not good for anything. Like that junk series, it will not get any customer. Like the case of su 30 and su35, China will once again rush to Russia for some plane for balance of power as Chinese subs and planes are junk. Pakistan withdrew jf17 to avoid comparison with Tejas. In threat evaluation of India, j 20 is placed much bellow Chinese su 30 and su 35. It will have no chance against Rafale or Tejas mk1+ or mk2.

If the J10 was Indian you would be praising it to the skies as one of the best fourth gen jets in existence.

I know better than to debate nationalistic fanboys who prefer jingoistic nonsense to realistic specifications.

Again, China bought 24 Su35's. If they had no confidence in the J20 or the J10, they's order hundreds of foreign jets, as the IAF and IN have been trying to do for years now... This is the first order for foreign fighters for the PLAAF in almost two decades. India has been running tenders for 100's of foreign jets for the past decade and still has 0 to show for it.

Why order hundreds of F16's if the LCA is competitive? WHY IS YOUR NAVY REJECTING THIS "SUPER JET" CAPABLE OF SHOOTING DOWN J20'S? Please provide this "threat evaluation of India"... As your previous "128 petaflop supercomputer" claims have demonstrated before, you have a loose grasp on reality.

 

[Anikastha]

Why order hundreds of F16's if the LCA is competitive? WHY IS YOUR NAVY REJECTING THIS "SUPER JET" CAPABLE OF SHOOTING DOWN J20'S? Please provide this "threat evaluation of India"... As your previous "128 petaflop supercomputer" claims have demonstrated before, you have a loose grasp on reality.

First get your facts corrected.
IN navy / airforce didn't order any F16. You must be confused with PAF. We don't have high obsession with f16 like pakis have. On straight point we rejected f16.
We never said lca is super duper.....above indian member named Upgraded mirage not lca.
Do u why Indian navy rejected lca ?
Because it is too light to operate from carrier.
In airforce we have long airstrip which can help overloaded LCA ( if during war) to pickup enough speed to takeoff. But for aircraft carrier having long stip/runway is impossible. You should have speculated this b4 replying in bold sentences that too in dumb way.


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[Anikastha]

Again, China bought 24 Su35's. If they had no confidence in the J20 or the J10, they's order hundreds of foreign jets, as the IAF and IN have been trying to do for years now... This is the first order for foreign fighters for the PLAAF in almost two decades. India has been running tenders for 100's of foreign jets for the past decade and still has 0 to show for it.

.

The reason india has been importing aircraft from foreign is don't have proper aeronautical field for R&D. Our drdo was restricted to missiles and tanks.
Even if we have design and technology , HAL can't churn out more than 10 planes per year...let me be frank ...we don't have aircraft manufacturing infrastructure like you have. We have just entered this field.....it means we are behind you.
And about you...you have chegudu units...you guys make your own birds ...you have seperate R&D section...even though china went to Rus.
I mean why ?
What is the reason?
First answer my question.


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[J20!]

The reason india has been importing aircraft from foreign is don't have proper aeronautical field for R&D. Our drdo was restricted to missiles and tanks.
Even if we have design and technology , HAL can't churn out more than 10 planes per year...let me be frank ...we don't have aircraft manufacturing infrastructure like you have. We have just entered this field.....it means we are behind you.
And about you...you have chegudu units...you guys make your own birds ...you have seperate R&D section...even though china went to Rus.
I mean why ?
What is the reason?
First answer my question.


Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

I already answered that question.

If anything that small order of SU35's is to either have a closer, hands-on look at the jet's very complex FBW system for incorporation into other Chinese jets or its engines or even its ECM suite.

There have been pics of the J11D prototype floating around for two years or more, but nothing more than that. Is the SU 35 purchase an attempt to make the J11D more competitive by Shengyang Corp?

Replication aside, as I said before, 24 SU 35's don't lend much to the PLAAF in terms of combat strength vis-a-vis the US and Japan, but 24 SU 35's can make up a decent aggressor squadron for training and developing tactics for the PLAAF. Simulating advanced US and Japanese 4+ gen fighters would allow for comprehensive training for the the Air Force and Navy.

Those are the most rational explanations for an order of 2 dozen SU35's for an air-force fielding hundreds of 4th generation front-line jets. 24 SU35's aren't going to replace the Chinese air-force's locally manufactured jets. Its just not operationally feasible. THAT'S MY POINT.

And more to the point of the thread, 24 SU35's aren't going to replace the J20 programme.

 

[J20!]

First get your facts corrected.
IN navy / airforce didn't order any F16. You must be confused with PAF. We don't have high obsession with f16 like pakis have. On straight point we rejected f16.
We never said lca is super duper.....above indian member named Upgraded mirage not lca.
Do u why Indian navy rejected lca ?
Because it is too light to operate from carrier.
In airforce we have long airstrip which can help overloaded LCA ( if during war) to pickup enough speed to takeoff. But for aircraft carrier having long stip/runway is impossible. You should have speculated this b4 replying in bold sentences that too in dumb way.


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So Lockheed isn't pitching the F16 production line to India? Isn't SAAB scrambling to sell the IAF the Gripen E? There isn't an IAF tender for HUNDREDS of single engine fighters? Wasn't the LCA initially supposed to fill the single engine requirement for the IAF?

What happened? @HariPrasad-1 just said the J20, a 5th generation, heavy stealth fighter "will have no chance against Rafale or Tejas mk1+ or mk2".

If Tejas can shoot down the J20, then why are the Indian armed forces scrambling to buy foreign combat jets and not buying the "Super Tejas" en masse? The Navy just announced a tender for 57 aircraft right? Why did they waste money developing the Naval LCA in the first place then? Why does the IAF need another single-engined fighter if its sooo "confident" that the LCA can shoot down the PLAAF's whole inventory?

Tejas shooting down the J20 is jingoistic BS at its best And you can't defend it because its not factual. Its nonsensical.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

If the J10 was Indian you would be praising it to the skies as one of the best fourth gen jets in existence.

I know better than to debate nationalistic fanboys who prefer jingoistic nonsense to realistic specifications.

Again, China bought 24 Su35's. If they had no confidence in the J20 or the J10, they's order hundreds of foreign jets, as the IAF and IN have been trying to do for years now... This is the first order for foreign fighters for the PLAAF in almost two decades. India has been running tenders for 100's of foreign jets for the past decade and still has 0 to show for it.

Why order hundreds of F16's if the LCA is competitive? WHY IS YOUR NAVY REJECTING THIS "SUPER JET" CAPABLE OF SHOOTING DOWN J20'S? Please provide this "threat evaluation of India"... As your previous "128 petaflop supercomputer" claims have demonstrated before, you have a loose grasp on reality.

See, I will tell you the difference. We never told that we have jets capable and better than others and then order something inferior.

J is good plane? Do you even know how many has fall down to date? Or may enlight you with some references?

Can we do one thing? Can we compare Tejas' and J 10 or any other fighters performance video ? At least this is something we can compare if we can not compare RADAR and EW.

Navy Rejected Tejas because they decided to go for 2 engine plane. I know very well how your 2 engine russian plane copy J 15 performs. I can post you the link of chinses media itself if you want.

Regarding peta flop computer, It is under development. Our government took 3 years to sanction fund.

Regarding purchase of Su 35, is it 20 years since you bought Su 30? What maters is that you buy fourth generation plane inspite the claim that you have 2 5th generation planes. This speaks a lot about the quality of your planes. Can you tell me why nobody except pakistan buy your so called super planes and you yourself buy Russian planes? Why your BS engines are not ready inspite of earmarking a huge amount of 16 bn USD? and you guys are compelled to use Russian engine?

 

[Bornubus]

This is the first order for foreign fighters for the PLAAF in almost two decades. India has been running tenders for 100's of foreign jets for the past decade and still has 0 to show for it.

No much different from India. HAL has been producing Jets (under License ) for Decades same as China but the only difference is that Chinese rename it and call it indigenous.


J Series and your majority of other jets are just Soviet - Russian Copies produced locally.


Same is true for your other Defense equipments.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

o Lockheed isn't pitching the F16 production line to India? Isn't SAAB scrambling to sell the IAF the Gripen E? There isn't an IAF tender for HUNDREDS of single engine fighters? Wasn't the LCA initially supposed to fill the single engine requirement for the IAF?

yes they are pitching their planes for India. We are not going to buy like you buy Su 35 right from shelf. We have a very heavy shortage of planes and many of our planes have outlived its life. We are not in a position to replenish them with our Tejas so we have offered to make their planes in India if they want to sell it to us at our own terms and condition. You do not have such choice. We are not like you who are dependent on some other countries for modest stuff and behaves like as if they are much ahead of all. Regarding Tejas, you media has said that it has stealth stuff. Your media has said that JF 17 is today's plane and Tejas is a plane of future. I think you must read and believe your people and your media though you may not be willing to trust others.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

No much different from India. HAL has been producing Jets (under License ) for Decades same as China but the only difference is that Chinese rename it and call it indigenous.


J Series and your majority of other jets are just Soviet - Russian Copies produced locally.


Same is true for your other Defense equipments.

There is one difference. Chinese copies are junk. Indian made products are state of art.

Read what Chinese media says about J 15. It is an absolute junk and can not carry anything except some air to air missile.

 

[Krusty]

@HariPrasad-1 chinese are buying SU35 in small numbers not to deploy it or as a substitute for the J20. @J20! is right there. The Low purchase order is for studying airframe changes and loot as much as information and technical data as possible. That's why such a Low number. J11/15 was ripped off from SU 30/27. So SU35 will be copied as what? J12? Not being nationalistic or anything but these are the facts. Chinese copy others tech and designs. It's their strength. I agree that Indians aren't great at copying tech. We prefer to learn slowly nonetheless we prefer to do it ourselves.