J20 Stealth Fighter

[J20!]

 

[ersakthivel]

Don't get taken by simple engine thrust numbers.
It is the weight of the engine for the thrust produced and acceleration to reach the full military thrust that is important.
In this field it is yet to be proven that chinese have surpassed the french.
As it is always easy to hide the engine weight figures and blindly state the thrust figure is a way to confuse people.
Unless one WS sits on the back of JF-17, you will never know.The RD-russian version tech sitting on the back of JF-17 is the proof at the moment of the chinese tech is not as good or as bad as the french.

After 20 years of research , GTRE kaveri produces about 75 kn at sea level.It weighs near 1100 kg or so.
With snecma collabaration a 90 kn thrust seems possible with further reduction in weight by 100 kgs as per some open source estimates.
So our figure will reach TWR of close to 9 for the jet engine.

It chinese members post these figures it will lead to more informed discussion.
If you want the figures for FRENCH you can ask any body it is 10.

The whole world knows about french engine tech with 2000 mirages exported world wide.

The IAF once anted add extra 126 mirages to it's fleet. So everyone here knows about the level of french engine tech.

Shenyang J-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The J-15 is reported to use different avionics and systems than the Su-33, and uses Chinese-developed technologies, and features various upgrades such as AESA radar, radar absorbent material, MAWS, IRST, composite, and new electronics.[15]

China Signpost believes the J-15 "likely exceeds or matches the aerodynamic capabilities of virtually all fighter aircraft currently operated by regional militaries, with the exception of the U.S. F-22 Raptor"[16], alleging that the J-15 possesses a 10% superior thrust to weight ratio and a 25% lower wing loading than the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet[16].

However, Hu Siyuan of the National Defense University PLA China has said that "the current weak point of the J-15 is its Russia-made Al-31 engines which are less powerful than that of the American F-35 fighter".[17]
This is the reality behind the bluster.

You can go here and see what the chinese are doing

http://airforceworld.com/pla/english...ter-china.html
And more in the above site,
Similarly Indians can put a fancy name on our SUKHOI-MKI and call it our total indigenous product.
but since it is a democracy, such frauds cannot be concealed here.


Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match the performance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to "spool up", i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.

WS-10A is reported to have 13,200 kilograms (29,000 lb) of thrust and a 7.5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, making it comparable to the AL-31F turbofan. The WS-10A was first displayed in public at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show.
So it is no where near the french tech on rafale.
Infact despite all the hoopla over 13o kn engine ,it is infact in the same level of TWR relatimg to KAVERI-(K-9 version)

With this engine overweight J-20 is a sitting duck once it's stealth cover is blown

Atleast every one knows the k-9 has at last made this much progress concretely and high altitude trials in russia succeeded at this level of thrust.

The GTRE is asking for mating k-9 with tejas.
But no body is interested because these 7 level of TWr is practically not useful in military jet engines of today.

So we are going for a JV with snecma for close to 10 TWR level.

 

[J20!]

Don't get taken by simple engine thrust numbers.
It is the weight of the engine for the thrust produced and acceleration to reach the full military thrust that is important.
In this field it is yet to be proven that chinese have surpassed the french.
As it is always easy to hide the engine weight figures and blindly state the thrust figure is a way to confuse people.
Unless one WS sits on the back of JF-17, you will never know.The RD-russian version tech sitting on the back of JF-17 is the proof at the moment of the chinese tech is not as good or as bad as the french.

After 20 years of research , GTRE kaveri produces about 75 kn at sea level.It weighs near 1100 kg or so.
With snecma collabaration a 90 kn thrust seems possible with further reduction in weight by 100 kgs as per some open source estimates.
So our figure will reach TWR of close to 9 for the jet engine.

It chinese members post these figures it will lead to more informed discussion.
If you want the figures for FRENCH you can ask any body it is 10.

The whole world knows about french engine tech with 2000 mirages exported world wide.

The IAF once anted add extra 126 mirages to it's fleet. So everyone here knows about the level of french engine tech.

Shenyang J-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The J-15 is reported to use different avionics and systems than the Su-33, and uses Chinese-developed technologies, and features various upgrades such as AESA radar, radar absorbent material, MAWS, IRST, composite, and new electronics.[15]

China Signpost believes the J-15 "likely exceeds or matches the aerodynamic capabilities of virtually all fighter aircraft currently operated by regional militaries, with the exception of the U.S. F-22 Raptor"[16], alleging that the J-15 possesses a 10% superior thrust to weight ratio and a 25% lower wing loading than the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet[16].

However, Hu Siyuan of the National Defense University PLA China has said that "the current weak point of the J-15 is its Russia-made Al-31 engines which are less powerful than that of the American F-35 fighter".[17]
This is the reality behind the bluster.

The P&W installed on the F35 is the most powerful engine ever fitted on a front line jet fighter with over 45000lbf. So no shit Sherlock, of course the F35's engine far exceeds AL-31F, but then it also outperforms the engines on every other fighter on earth, including both Rafale and Eurofighter, heck even the engines on an F22.

And what's with all the double standards? The only difference between the engines on a J11A and the Su30 MKI, is that the MKI's engines feature thrust vectoring. They still produce the exact amount of thrust as the AL31 on Su27/J11A whilst suffering the weight penalty brought on by TVC. So if you say AL31 on J11A's are a weak point due to their thrust to weight ratios, then doesn't that apply to much heavier AL31's on the MKI?

1 more thing:

DEFENSE STUDIES: China Makes Modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F Jet Engine

The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.
The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).

The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".

As opposed to India being content with AL31FP 100% indigenization(tha still hasn't happened mind you), the Chinese producers of the AL31 series have managed to MODIFY and extend the Al31F's engine life by more than double the original figure.

Furthermore, there are more than 10 individual engine projects in various stages of development with over 10 billion Yuan financing them in total; some of which, like the new minshan turbofan, can now be seen on showcase at the Zhuhai airshow for export.

From 624th Institute, developing cores ranging from 5 to 35kg/s, engine thrust from 200 to 20000kgf. With more than 10 domestic engines under development including: Qingcheng (WS500 for cruise missile/UAV), Huanglong (turbojet also for missile/UAV), Minjiang, Minshan (Low thrust w/AB for L15), Jiuzhai, E'mei (WS15), Yellow Mountain, Yellow River, Everest, Chiyan.

Minjiang (medium thrust high B/P ratio, domestic CF34) and Yellow River (high thrust high B/P ratio for Y20) are named after rivers there are high by pass ratio engines.

China has quite a number of civil and military aviation projects under development( eg C919, Y20, J20, J31, J10B, Loong Wing HALE UAV, L15 and JL9G trainers, a whole host of cruise missile etc etc) which translates into a requirement for a large number of jet engines across several classes and thrust ranges which then translates into an enormous need for R&D and investment as is now being seen under the 100 billion Yuan engine development plan.. Don't just focus on the almost complete WS10A, there are many more engine projects in China...

100 billion Yuan is more than half of India's entire annual defense budget. If you're going to use Chinese jet-engine development as a cornerstone of your belittling of both J-XX programs, then what does that say about its Indian counterpart? With its only produce Kaveri, needing major French assistance in the form of a JV to survive, which hasn't even officially begun, versus more than 10 individual major jet-engine development programs in China, all of which commenced development in or before 2008?

AVIC hasn't been making enormous profits and developmental gains by being idiots. They wouldn't start such high technology programs as J20 and J31 without first securing the development of major subsystems like engines. AL-31 and RD93 on J20 and J31 are stop gap measures in order to develop the airframe and the engine simultaneously just as the Russians are doing with the PAK FA... I don't see why you should criticize AVIC yet not mind the PAK FA's very similar development plan.

PS. Comparing a 29000lbf thrust engine which is now in operational service with the PLAAF on J11B's and testing on both J10B and J15, with a 18000lbf engine more akin to RD93, that was never even safe enough to test on a fighter let alone a single engine fighter as seen with WS10A on the J10B seems quite the mismatch don't you think?
And you're quoting criticisms reported in 2007. Don't you think the spooling issue would have been fixed in the 5 years its been before WS10A was integrated onto production J11B's?

 

[ersakthivel]

The P&W installed on the F35 is the most powerful engine ever fitted on a front line jet fighter with over 45000lbf. So no shit Sherlock, of course the F35's engine far exceeds AL-31F, but then it also outperforms the engines on every other fighter on earth, including both Rafale and Eurofighter, heck even the engines on an F22.

And what's with all the double standards? The only difference between the engines on a J11A and the Su30 MKI, is that the MKI's engines feature thrust vectoring. They still produce the exact amount of thrust as the AL31 on Su27/J11A whilst suffering the weight penalty brought on by TVC. So if you say AL31 on J11A's are a weak point due to their thrust to weight ratios, then doesn't that apply to much heavier AL31's on the MKI?

1 more thing:

DEFENSE STUDIES: China Makes Modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F Jet Engine



As opposed to India being content with AL31FP 100% indigenization(tha still hasn't happened mind you), the Chinese producers of the AL31 series have managed to MODIFY and extend the Al31F's engine life by more than double the original figure.

Furthermore, there are more than 10 individual engine projects in various stages of development with over 10 billion Yuan financing them in total; some of which, like the new minshan turbofan, can now be seen on showcase at the Zhuhai airshow for export.

China has quite a number of civil and military aviation projects under development( eg C919, Y20, J20, J31, J10B, Loong Wing HALE UAV, L15 and JL9G trainers, a whole host of cruise missile etc etc) which translates into a requirement for a large number of jet engines across several classes and thrust ranges which then translates into an enormous need for R&D and investment as is now being seen under the 100 billion Yuan engine development plan.. Don't just focus on the almost complete WS10A, there are many more engine projects in China...

100 billion Yuan is more than half of India's entire annual defense budget. If you're going to use Chinese jet-engine development as a cornerstone of your belittling of both J-XX programs, then what does that say about its Indian counterpart? With its only produce Kaveri, needing major French assistance in the form of a JV to survive, which hasn't even officially begun, versus more than 10 individual major jet-engine development programs in China, all of which commenced development in or before 2008?

AVIC hasn't been making enormous profits and developmental gains by being idiots. They wouldn't start such high technology programs as J20 and J31 without first securing the development of major subsystems like engines. AL-31 and RD93 on J20 and J31 are stop gap measures in order to develop the airframe and the engine simultaneously just as the Russians are doing with the PAK FA... I don't see why you should criticize AVIC yet not mind the PAK FA's very similar development plan.

PS. Comparing a 29000lbf thrust engine which is now in operational service with the PLAAF on J11B's and testing on both J10B and J15, with a 18000lbf engine more akin to RD93, that was never even safe enough to test on a fighter let alone a single engine fighter as seen with WS10A on the J10B seems quite the mismatch don't you think?
And you're quoting criticisms reported in 2007. Don't you think the spooling issue would have been fixed in the 5 years its been before WS10A was integrated onto production J11B's?

Sigh!!!!!! You never learn what is the topic of discussion.The basic irrefutable point is the level af metaulargy,and temperature and stress tolerence, of K-9 and AF-31 FP is the same as they both have a TWR of around 7.What is worse is k-9 is fully indigenous and ours, AL-31 is russian.Not yours.

So we can easily configure a twin engined fighter with proper load and range at the level of your J-31 or whatever.But since IAF doesnot see it as good enough we are trying for a TWR of around 10 with snecma JV.


So you are nowhere ahead of india in engine tech.Instead of honestly accepting the point in fair debate,what you are unloading is your 100 billion yuan story here.You can throw as much money as possible and but tech development is ultimately the result of scientist's intelligence.Sure you cannot buy that.

 

[p2prada]

K-9 is a generation behind the Al-31FP. Heck K-9 is more in the M53 category with titanium blades.

Also, K-9 is 200Kg overweight. It's T/W ratio is 5.5:1 while AL-31FP is more than 7.5:1. Not even in the same class.

K-9 has zero growth potential whereas the AL-37FU(Su-37) and 117S(Su-35) have already moved up to the 9:1 category and the 117(PAKFA prototype) at the 10.5:1 category. All 3 engines have at least 3 times higher lifecycle as compared to K-9.

The new gen engine being developed for the PAKFA will have even higher T/W than the PW F-135 (F-35s engine 11.5:1), most probably at 12+:1. But this is a whole new engine while the AL-31 will end with the 117.

It's foolish to even compare Russia with India/China.

 

[J20!]

Sigh!!!!!! You never learn what is the topic of discussion.The basic irrefutable point is the level af metaulargy,and temperature and stress tolerence, of K-9 and AF-31 FP is the same as they both have a TWR of around 7.What is worse is k-9 is fully indigenous and ours, AL-31 is russian.Not yours.

So we can easily configure a twin engined fighter with proper load and range at the level of your J-31 or whatever.But since IAF doesnot see it as good enough we are trying for a TWR of around 10 with snecma JV.


So you are nowhere ahead of india in engine tech.Instead of honestly accepting the point in fair debate,what you are unloading is your 100 billion yuan story here.You can throw as much money as possible and but tech development is ultimately the result of scientist's intelligence.Sure you cannot buy that.

The current K9 with its 5.5:1 TWR will never see frontline service, and its replacement, the JV with Snecma hasn't even begun its development yet, so you'll forgive me for being skeptical.
WS10A though, IS IN ACTIVE SERVICE. In low numbers yes, but its still flying on OPERATIONAL, FRONT-LINE FIGHTERS. And as opposed to K9, WS10A can be classed with the AL31F in both TWR and thrust figures and actually produces more thrust than the baseline 28000lbf AL31F.

You have no idea how large the R&D base of the Chinese aerospace industry is do you? Do a little research. Of the more than 10 aforementioned engines under development, 3 have so far been displayed at Zhuhai:

Jiuzhai:

Targeted at small business jets. Ongoing commissioning tests: link

WS-12 5000kgf thrust turbine engine

Meant to power the L-15 advanced trainer and eventually replace its current Ukrainian turbofans. The engine has basically completed performance tests of its main components. Test results met the design specifications. link

The major development program to develop an indigenous engine for the C919 and Y20 programs, the CJ1000A also has a stall at Zhuhai with their prototype(currently being tested) on display:

Yes almost all of China's new fighters and civilian airframes are to enter production with foreign engines, but there are very well-funded programs in place to replace foreign power plants with home-grown alternatives at varying stages of production, from the CJ1000A for C919, to WS13 for the FC1 block 2.

The same can hardly be said for India... All your frontline fighters, UAV's, cargo planes, cruise missiles etc etc excluding Tejas(not for another decade though) are to fly for their entire airframe lifespans on foreign engines. MKI's, Mig29's, Rafales, FGFA etc etc will never see an indigenous power-plant. J10B, J116, J15, Y20, Soar Dragon, L15, JL9G's, J20, J31 etc etc all have indigenous power-plants under development to replace foreign engines during the next decade.

The only program worth mentioning from India was K9, which mind you failed to meet required specifications, thus the JV to gain access to Snecma expertise. I don't see how a failed project requiring foreign help to complete puts India ahead of China in jet engine development...

So yes my fanboy friend, China is very much ahead of India in jet engine development and technology, but no matter how many pics and stats I post you'll probably never admit it, so I digress, I'd rather talk about the J20 now...

PS. Links are in Mandarin, couldn't find any English versions, so Google translate it is for you...

 

[ersakthivel]

The current K9 with its 5.5:1 TWR will never see frontline service, and its replacement, the JV with Snecma hasn't even begun its development yet, so you'll forgive me for being skeptical.

CURRENT K-9 HAS A TWR OF 7 PLUS.i don't know from where you got the figure 5.5?

Because tejas performance specs increased mid way ,it was not suitable to it. It achieved more than 80 percent of it's performance target depite a measly R&D spend of around 2 billion dollars or so only.

It equals the twr of AL-31 FP, not your WS or anything.It will be put on tejas in a couple of years .It has already performed flawlessly in high altitude test in russia.

The difference betweeen K-9 and WS is, While Ws will be a bolt for bolt copy of AL_31,Kaveri is original.

WS10A though, IS IN ACTIVE SERVICE. In low numbers yes, but its still flying on OPERATIONAL, FRONT-LINE FIGHTERS. And as opposed to K9, WS10A can be classed with the AL31F in both TWR and thrust figures and actually produces more thrust than the baseline 28000lbf AL31F.

You have no idea how large the R&D base of the Chinese aerospace industry is do you? Do a little research. Of the more than 10 aforementioned engines under development, 3 have so far been displayed at Zhuhai:

Most of them are either copy of one or another ,all you need is one performing combat jet engine of original design and reliability.Fiddling with AL-31 and saying we have increased it's service life is not original R&D.

Targeted at small business jets. Ongoing commissioning tests: link

WS-12 5000kgf thrust turbine engine

Meant to power the L-15 advanced trainer and eventually replace its current Ukrainian turbofans. The engine has basically completed performance tests of its main components. Test results met the design specifications. link

Once again don't turn this thread into military photos thread.Beautiful pictures cannot hide the fact that despite years of tinkering with copied designs,You still don't have the confidence to put your engine on a single engined plane and exported it to another country means only one thing.You don't have a reliable top line jet engine in your hand.
Limited series production of some WS engine and putting a few on some of your planes without the world knowing whether it achieved weight and thrust targets, or whether it is your original design is won't make you R&D pioneers despite all the billions thrown into development.

The major development program to develop an indigenous engine for the C919 and Y20 programs, the CJ1000A also has a stall at Zhuhai with their prototype(currently being tested) on display:

Yes almost all of China's new fighters and civilian airframes are to enter production with foreign engines, but there are very well-funded programs in place to replace foreign power plants with home-grown alternatives at varying stages of production, from the CJ1000A for C919, to WS13 for the FC1 block 2.

The same can hardly be said for India... All your frontline fighters, UAV's, cargo planes, cruise missiles etc etc excluding Tejas(not for another decade though) are to fly for their entire airframe lifespans on foreign engines. MKI's, Mig29's, Rafales, FGFA etc etc will never see an indigenous power-plant. J10B, J116, J15, Y20, Soar Dragon, L15, JL9G's, J20, J31 etc etc all have indigenous power-plants under development to replace foreign engines during the next decade.

There is no point in spending time and money on replacing the old engines of earlier generation plane with so called bolt by bolt copy of indian engines,as it won't be a new R&D program.That's why the next k-10 jv for which is being negotiated with snecma will have a TWR of 10 ,and it will be way superior to the TWR 7 engines currently in our inventory.

What is the point of initiating new programs, dime a dozen to produce many types of out dated engine with TWR of 7?

The only program worth mentioning from India was K9, which mind you failed to meet required specifications, thus the JV to gain access to Snecma expertise. I don't see how a failed project requiring foreign help to complete puts India ahead of China in jet engine development...

So yes my fanboy friend, China is very much ahead of India in jet engine development and technology, but no matter how many pics and stats I post you'll probably never admit it, so I digress, I'd rather talk about the J20 now...

PS. Links are in Mandarin, couldn't find any English versions, so Google translate it is for you...

The links I am posting is neither in hindi nor in mandarin.It is in english.So you can just read it.
An overview of the Kaveri situation was provided by the GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, who was accompanied by his senior scientists. The hall was packed, and the language and tone of his speech was sadly self-depracating and pleading. Almost as if DRDO has also started losing faith - he had to explain whats going on and why its happening. Sad to see, but there are clear silver linings in the story.

1. He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

2. 4 Cores and 8 Kaveris built, 1800 hrs testing done.

Thrsut demonstrated: 4774 kgf dry (design value reached). 7000 kgf reheat (2.5-3% shortfall)

3. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.

Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20.
Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14

Note: These are ACHIEVED values.

4. The present Kaveri will not power combat LCAs, although it will be fitted to an LCA within 9 months. The new program, which is the Kaveri with Snecma Eco core of 90kN will be used. The preslim design studies and configuration have beeen completed.

5.Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took anothe new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.

7. The good news..... they will conduct complete engine trials in CIAM in March. If these trials are successful (and they are highly confident), the Kaveri will be integrated on the LCA within 9 months.

The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

8. The bad news again - The present requirements would need the core to pump out 15-20% more power, which is impossible... hence the eco. Not that there is anything wrong with the core.

He mentioned that otherwise, the Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

The last two points were mentioned by Dir, DMRL as one of their areas of research, but I was not able to quiz him on it. PLEASE QUIZ ANY DMRL GUYS U MEET ON THIS.

Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support. This stance found strong support from Saraswat, Sundaram and Selvamurthy in the closing ceremony.

They are not looking at TVC just yet, and it is in the hands of other labs at the moment.

However, the ADE presentation on UCAVs showed a future Indian UCAV (2015) with no tail (MCA design), a non-conventional wingform, and a 3 axis TVC.

10. OK, some nos....

Fan - Successful tests at CIAM
Compressor: (nos in brackets are design values)

6 stage axial flow, 3 stage variable vanes with IGVs.
Corr. tip speed ~370 m/s
Inlet diam: 590 mm

Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3)
Pressure: 6.42 (6.38)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85%)
Surge %: 21.6 (20% designed)

Combustor:
Has undergone aero testing at CIAM
K8 V4 combustor is close to design.

Turbine:
Pressure = 3.6
Mass flow function= 1.1
Isentropic eff = 85%
Max. TET = 1700K

Is a success, has met design.

11. Future uses:

Navy - KMGT - 1 MW for small ships being developed, 5-6 MW KMGT is a sucess and runs on Diesel, instead of the usual kerosene aviation fuel.

The railways also wants a 7-8MW CNG run engine, which will be a challenge in terms of fuel supply, rather than teh combustion itself, which shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Armand2REP]

You still think J-31 runs on a Chinese engine? It is the RD-33.

 

[p2prada]

Add 200Kg to your wiki figures for Kaveri.

7:1 for Kaveri is in your dreams, or stuff you find on wiki. It is not possible to achieve it and won't be done either, hence the development program for the K-10.

 

[ersakthivel]

Add 200Kg to your wiki figures for Kaveri.

7:1 for Kaveri is in your dreams, or stuff you find on wiki. It is not possible to achieve it and won't be done either, hence the development program for the K-10.

Weight reduction from 1300 kg to 1100 kg is done.
presently kavveri wieghs 1100 kg.It produces 75 kn thrust.
Any primary school kid can do the math to know the present TWR is 7500 kn/1100 kg is more than 7.
It is already achievd.
The k-10 is to take this further to a TWR of close to 10.
Also blade trowing due to vibrations of 3rd order frequencies was found out ater tests in CIAM and rectified.
SO no blade throwing and material deformation issues now.
The surge failures of 4 stages were also found out after tests in foreign facilities and rectified.

The lack of these test facilities here was the reason for 4 years of delay in k-9 program.
SO as of now k-9 runs at a TWR of 7 plus .It comes from official press conference by the GTRE director .Not from wiki.
So it is not a pipedream like your earlier claim of 30 km tracking range radar carrying MIG-21 bison wiping out 150 km detection and tracking range radar carrying LCA TEJAS.

 

[GromHellscream]

Statistics of test hours with classical turbofan engines from foreign countries (in Chinese view).

Country / Engine / Equipped Plane / Number of Prototypes for test / Test Hours on ground in total / Test Hours on flight platform in total

USA F100 F15&F16 114 12000 5750

USA F404 F/A-18 48 31000 9000

USA F414 F/A-18 35 20500 9000

UK RB199 Tornado 51 14500 6500

Russia Al-31F Su-27 57 16625 6275

EU EJ200 EF2000 60 12500 3000

Basically, making a new type of turbofan engine is a cash burning game.
I don't think India has allocated resources of this scale to achieve progress.

 

[p2prada]

I don't think India has allocated resources of this scale to achieve progress.

Actually, we have.

GTRE has requested GoI to release $2Billion for the K-10. This is not counting any K-9 derivatives or the funds already used up on K-9.

We merely do not have more than one major engine development program though.

 

[ersakthivel]

Actually, we have.

GTRE has requested GoI to release $2Billion for the K-10. This is not counting any K-9 derivatives or the funds already used up on K-9.

We merely do not have more than one major engine development program though.

If GTRE can develop jet engine within 2 billion dollars ,then why do chinese need so many billions?Are you saying chinese are inefficient?

We merely don't act as if we mastered whole engine tech and pretend we are running 10 or more dumbass engine program ,thats all.

 

[p2prada]

The Chinese are far ahead compared to India in engine tech. They even have the entire chain of testing facilities for it. We depend on Russia and pretty soon, France for the same.

They need more money because they are working on a lot more engines like WS-10, 15, 13 etc.

WS-10 (AL-31) and 15 (Type 30???) are entirely different classes of engines. We are developing something in the WS-13(RD-93) class.

 

[ersakthivel]

The Chinese are far ahead compared to India in engine tech. They even have the entire chain of testing facilities for it. We depend on Russia and pretty soon, France for the same.

They need more money because they are working on a lot more engines like WS-10, 15, 13 etc.

WS-10 (AL-31) and 15 (Type 30???) are entirely different classes of engines. We are developing something in the WS-13(RD-93) class.

where is the engine for their first export class , Jf-17 fighter class?
Working on many engine designs that have lesser TWR than the rest of the world says something about their present material tech.

IN contrast the k-9 has original design ideas behind it. It doesnot copy the exact schematic arrangement of any other engine in IAF.

No one has accused k-9 is a reversed engineered this and that, unlike so many accusations thrown about like ,this chinese engine is a reversed engineered version of that russian engine, with same matching external and internal dimensions, and thrust level.

Because of this only the russians are confident of handing over their latest engines to india, and french are interested in tech JV for k-10 engine, India doesn't copy some one else's IPR

 

[nimo_cn]

Naive!

Sent from Huawei Ascend T8830

 

[p2prada]

where is the engine for their first export class , Jf-17 fighter class?
Working on many engine designs that have lesser TWR than the rest of the world says something about their present material tech.

IN contrast the k-9 has original design ideas behind it. It doesnot copy the exact schematic arrangement of any other engine in IAF.

No one has accused k-9 is a reversed engineered this and that, unlike so many accusations thrown about like ,this chinese engine is a reversed engineered version of that russian engine, with same matching external and internal dimensions, and thrust level.

Because of this only the russians are confident of handing over their latest engines to india, and french are interested in tech JV for k-10 engine, India doesn't copy some one else's IPR

A fighter doesn't give a flying fvk whether its was copied or not. It needs to be good enough, that's it.

Kaveri is an indigenous effort. But no point if it won't be used on a fighter.

We don't have any data which suggests the Chinese engines have low T/W ratios.

 

[ersakthivel]

A fighter doesn't give a flying fvk whether its was copied or not. It needs to be good enough, that's it.

Kaveri is an indigenous effort. But no point if it won't be used on a fighter.

We don't have any data which suggests the Chinese engines have low T/W ratios.

What the fvk is the matter here is ,once you copy someones design you wont be able to iterate to the next level fast. That's why mature design houses never copy someone else's design and proclaim non existent superiority instead they toil for years to have their own design.

What ADA learnt from k-9 is 10 times more valuable in designing the next engine than trying to reverse engineer AL_31. Only a true engineer who battled with design complexities and finishes a working product will have a head to understand this stuff.

It would have been 10 times easier for ada to copy a fvking RD-93 or AL-31 without any design philosophies of the components and sitting under it like a dog rolling a coconut ,unable to open it and eat it.That's the reason you will get derided forever, and no one will get into a JV with you if you do the monkey wrench job of reverse engineering.

That's why snecma is ready for a jv with india and russians are supplying us PAKFA with their latest engine.

Every design house should have experienced personal at the top who had a go at an original design and failed than having guys who tried reverse engineering and failed.Since the seniors themselves are not well versed with design concepts and spent their entire life trying to reverse engineer ,how will they guide the juniors in advanced design concepts?

We don't have any data which suggests the Chinese engines have low T/W ratios.

We will never have such data because they dont have a successful engine as yet, proof is the pak jf-17.You can put a susceptible engine on a twin engined fighter and mask your engines reliability, because it will come home in the event of an engine failiure.
Only when you put an engine on a single engine fighter and export it successfully , the proof you have reached somewhere in engine development will be shown to the world.

Until that happens legions of trolls need not give a freaking fvk ,and troll all the forumsof the net with the stuff that they have 10 engine development programs when in reality they dont have one single cutting edge engine finished

 

[ice berg]

What the fvk is the matter here is ,once you copy someones design you wont be able to iterate to the next level fast. That's why mature design houses never copy someone else's design and proclaim non existent superiority instead they toil for years to have their own design.

What ADA learnt from k-9 is 10 times more valuable in designing the next engine than trying to reverse engineer AL_31. Only a true engineer who battled with design complexities and finishes a working product will have a head to understand this stuff.

It would have been 10 times easier for ada to copy a fvking RD-93 or AL-31 without any design philosophies of the components and sitting under it like a dog rolling a coconut ,unable to open it and eat it.That's the reason you will get derided forever, and no one will get into a JV with you if you do the monkey wrench job of reverse engineering.

That's why snecma is ready for a jv with india and russians are supplying us PAKFA with their latest engine.

Every design house should have experienced personal at the top who had a go at an original design and failed than having guys who tried reverse engineering and failed.Since the seniors themselves are not well versed with design concepts and spent their entire life trying to reverse engineer ,how will they guide the juniors in advanced design concepts?

We will never have such data because they dont have a successful engine as yet, proof is the pak jf-17.You can put a susceptible engine on a twin engined fighter and mask your engines reliability, because it will come home in the event of an engine failiure.
Only when you put an engine on a single engine fighter and export it successfully , the proof you have reached somewhere in engine development will be shown to the world.

Until that happens legions of trolls need not give a freaking fvk ,and troll all the forumsof the net with the stuff that they have 10 engine development programs when in reality they dont have one single cutting edge engine finished

The only funny thing here is you who are looking down on chinese aviation when your engine industry is virtually non-existent.
Come back when you actually have a domestic engine on an operional air craft. J-11b, prototypes of J-15 and J-16s are using Ws-10s.
Nobody is claiming they are state of the art. However it is a start. Which is more than you can say about your country.
By the way, Ws-10A is not based on AL-31.

 

[ersakthivel]

The only funny thing here is you who are looking down on chinese aviation when your engine industry is virtually non-existent.
Come back when you actually have a domestic engine on an operional air craft. J-11b, prototypes of J-15 and J-16s are using Ws-10s.
Nobody is claiming they are state of the art. However it is a start. Which is more than you can say about your country.
By the way, Ws-10A is not based on AL-31.

no one denies china has a start. India too has a start.

See k-9 is at the same stage as that of your engines. Try to read some open source info on it.If your country puts a modern engine with a twr of more than 7 at least on the single engined JF-17 and exports at least a 50 of them successfully then you have arrived at engine tech.Until then ,question marks will always be raised on any chinese engine claim.prototype engines on twin engine fighters dont really mean anything.

because engine failures in mid flight can easily masked by the working of another engine and the fighter returns back to base. there are interviews accepting this fact by major figures in chinese aviation field itself.

See all 5th gen or 4th fighter makers in the world have made 1000s of fighters and exported them all over the world. And foreign maintanance crew work on their engines. For example every one knows the mirage, F-16, sukhoi engines , So no one can make any false claim regarding it. thats what marks the day of arrival of your engine tech too.

By the time INDIA too will have arrived at the world stage with it's own LCA tejas with k-10 JV. You cannot denigrate it saying that it has french tech in it. Everyone in the world knows how much russian tech is there in your engines.

So the level remains the same even then. Thats why I dont accept any claim of superiority from chinese regarding engine tech or fighter tech. No point in claiming world beating superiority with 5th gen airframe that has russian enigines.

If asked and funded ADA too would have flown a 5th gen fighter platform on a russian engine (Rd-93 or AL-31) in the same time as your designers did.it is no big deal.What is the big deal is it would be obsolete with in a decade of entering service ,because a 5th gen fighter is supposed to have a high engine TWR figure of more around 15 to be comparable.


Even GTRE can mount a k-9 on a twin engined fighter and announce it is in limited serial production in a few years time.It doesnot mean india has mastered the engine tech.Because no one knows the weight of the engine and thrust figures and what is the reliability and how good the tech is?

once a good export customer accepts a fighter with your own engines ,then no one is needed to certify it.The day JF-17 and J-10s win export orders with chinese engines every body knows what chinese engine tech is.