J20 Stealth Fighter

[ersakthivel]

China's First Master Designer

July 5, 2011: After years of trying to keep it a secret, China has confirmed that one of their aircraft engineers, Yang Wei, is actually one of those extraordinary designers who produces one successful design after another. Born in 1963, he graduated from college at age 19 and finished graduate school three years later. He soon went to work at the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute, and a decade later was appointed director. So far, he has designed a working fly-by-wire system, as well as the JF-17, J-10B and J-20. He did not design the original J-10, but did design the most successful version, the J-10B, and provided important upgrades for other J-10 models. The new J-20 (a stealth design that is still in development) is less of a surprise now that it's known the Chinese have a genuine ace designer working on it.
Ace aircraft designers are rare, and those that do show up tend to create a number of exceptional designs during a few decades (or much less, if there's a war going on). For example, Russian designer Mikhail Simonov recently died (at age 81). He was responsible for the Su-24 bomber, the Su-25 ground attack plane and the Su-27 fighter. Starting during World War II, for example, one American designer (who was trained in Germany), Edgar Schmued, designed the P-51, followed by the F-86 and F-100 after the war. In Germany, Willie Messerschmitt designed the Me-109, Me-110 and the first jet fighter (Me-262) plus several others during World War II, and a few after the war.

In China, Yang Wei appears to be the first designer in this tradition. He had nothing to do with the original J-10, the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. That appears to explain the many problems this aircraft has had. The J-10 was an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that would be comparable to the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were continued problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller flaws. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Yang Wei improved the J-10 considerably with his J-10B version.

But it was the JF-17 (also known as FC-1) that made Yang Mei's reputation. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had. The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics), the JF-17 uses Chinese and Pakistani electronics.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and uses radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter.Warplanes: China's First Master Designer

if JF-17 is such a genuine succes why are the pakis begging the russians for engines and begging the whole world for missiles and radars and avionics?

 

[Impluseblade]

if JF-17 is such a genuine succes why are the pakis begging the russians for engines and begging the whole world for missiles and radars and avionics?

It is funny that you are also asking the whole world for engine, missile, radar, and avionics for your LCA project.

 

[redragon]

J-2003 spotted. waiting for clearer pics

 

[ersakthivel]

It is funny that you are also asking the whole world for engine, missile, radar, and avionics for your LCA project.

ofcourse but replacemnets are being developed side by side
1.ASEA miniaturization under progress.
2.Astra missile to be test fired,
3.GTRE snecma tie up for engines,

But how can you develop engines and asea for J-20 when you haven't finished them for JF-17?

 

[tony4562]

In my humble opinion similarities between Mirage2000 and LCA are far greater than the purported similariies between J20 and Mig 1.44.

Compared with Mirae2000 which BTW is IAF's favourite bird, LCA looks little bit unbalanced, little bit unrefined, but the similarities are striking.

All this discussion about China copying this, copying that matters little, when India itself copies a lot and still goes can't get anything done.

the original, a known success

the imitator, an acknowledged failure

Are the shiny parts on INSAS made of wood or plastics?

 

[GromHellscream]

Have a look at the distorted main wings, the adjustable inlets and even a pair of small fixed canards, Mirage2000 is simply a much complicated airframe. When you learned from a much complicated model but ended like that, it's not called COPY but INNOVATION!

 

[ice berg]

ofcourse but replacemnets are being developed side by side
1.ASEA miniaturization under progress.
2.Astra missile to be test fired,
3.GTRE snecma tie up for engines,

But how can you develop engines and asea for J-20 when you haven't finished them for JF-17?

It is a freaking export plane that PLAAF rejected. The ws-10A is been mass produced fitting J-11B, J-15 etc.
AESA is been fitted on J-10B.

Pakistan needed JF-17 fast og China delivered. There is no need or time to develope engines and AESA radars in such short time. use some commom sense, man.
That dosnt means an export plane = PLAAF standard

 

[ersakthivel]

It is a freaking export plane that PLAAF rejected. The ws-10A is been mass produced fitting J-11B, J-15 etc.
AESA is been fitted on J-10B.

Pakistan needed JF-17 fast og China delivered. There is no need or time to develope engines and AESA radars in such short time. use some commom sense, man.
That dosnt means an export plane = PLAAF standard

So you are saying that export planes will be chinese airframe with russian engines and the buyers have to cobble up all the radar ,avionics and missiles from open market.

Be careful ,if you say stuff openly like this who will buy the junk fighter-17?

with more of common sense approach like yours I too can claim that ASEA is already on board tejas and kaveri ready for mass production, who cares for truths nowadays?

 

[ersakthivel]

In my humble opinion similarities between Mirage2000 and LCA are far greater than the purported similariies between J20 and Mig 1.44.

Compared with Mirae2000 which BTW is IAF's favourite bird, LCA looks little bit unbalanced, little bit unrefined, but the similarities are striking.

All this discussion about China copying this, copying that matters little, when India itself copies a lot and still goes can't get anything done.

the original, a known success

the imitator, an acknowledged failure

Are the shiny parts on INSAS made of wood or plastics?

No one denies the influence of mirages.The DASSAULT team gave consulatancy to ADA .But cranked delta and lower wing loading parameter with much higher TWR differenciates LCA from Mirage belying the statement that it is a mere copy.

 

[ersakthivel]

Have a look at the distorted main wings, the adjustable inlets and even a pair of small fixed canards, Mirage2000 is simply a much complicated airframe. When you learned from a much complicated model but ended like that, it's not called COPY but INNOVATION!

For your information
1. mirage has lower TWR THAN lca,
2.AND NO CRANKED DELTA(which you refer as distorted main wing) WITH TWISTED WING ROOT IS copied from mirage as they were not present on mirage.
Lca .
3.Lca has much lower wing loading than mirage.
4.LCA has much lesser RCS than mirage and much smaller in size.

 

[ice berg]

So you are saying that export planes will be chinese airframe with russian engines and the buyers have to cobble up all the radar ,avionics and missiles from open market.

Be careful ,if you say stuff openly like this who will buy the junk fighter-17?

with more of common sense approach like yours I too can claim that ASEA is already on board tejas and kaveri ready for mass production, who cares for truths nowadays?

Sigh, you truelly are a troll.
I will try one more time before moving you to my ignore list.

The engines are from Russia along with other items that the buyer requires. If Pakistan wants british made ejection seat, then they should have it. I see no problem with that. The plane was customed to their wishes. What is the problem?

And making stupid comments about a plane that is flying and opertional just makes you look silly. Your LCA isnt even operational and you are mocking the pakistanis? Absurd!

Who cares what you claim. I can back up my claims of J-11B with ws-10a engines and J-10b with AESA.
You can keep dreaming how your non-flying LCA can bring down the likes of F-22 and J-20.
And LCA with AESA? Ha, a good one. First get it operational, then come back to us.

 

[tony4562]

For your information
1. mirage has lower TWR THAN lca,
2.AND NO CRANKED DELTA(which you refer as distorted main wing) WITH TWISTED WING ROOT IS copied from mirage as they were not present on mirage.
Lca .
3.Lca has much lower wing loading than mirage.
4.LCA has much lesser RCS than mirage and much smaller in size.

Maybe eveything you said is true, but the only thing we can be certain of at this stage, is that Mirage2000 is 10 times the fighter LCA is, in every freaking way you name it.

Like the LCA , many of the so-called 'indigenous' DRDO projects often end up less than the fancy west-imported parts they are made of. Currently LCA with 40% foreign content is struggling mightily, India needs to raise the figure to 90% like the case of Dhruv, then DRDO would finally have something to celebrate.

 

[ice berg]

J-2003 spotted. waiting for clearer pics

Like this?

A new radar ftw.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sigh, you truelly are a troll.
I will try one more time before moving you to my ignore list.

The engines are from Russia along with other items that the buyer requires. If Pakistan wants british made ejection seat, then they should have it. I see no problem with that. The plane was customed to their wishes. What is the problem?

And making stupid comments about a plane that is flying and opertional just makes you look silly. Your LCA isnt even operational and you are mocking the pakistanis? Absurd!

Who cares what you claim. I can back up my claims of J-11B with ws-10a engines and J-10b with AESA.
You can keep dreaming how your non-flying LCA can bring down the likes of F-22 and J-20.
And LCA with AESA? Ha, a good one. First get it operational, then come back to us.

No need to care for my claim.There are enough material on the net on the legend called WS engine.

NOW GTRE claims that they have kaveri ready with 75 kn thrust and it is ready to be integerated to tejas in few prototype number in two or three years time after rigourous tests.

They have categorically stated that they don't have production level single crystal blade tech(only at lab level, they have succeeded), and thermo baric coatings and they simply moved on.SO to avoid the time delay they are proposing JV.

But they have prudently said it won't have enough power for 90 kn requirement of TEJAS.They are not trying to fool the world by fitting it on a LCA and claiming they have achieved serial production.They are going for JV with SNECMA to shorten the time period for achieving 90 kn + specs.

My point is why was a good chinese engine and radar and ejection seat or anything matching good 4th gen fighters of western standards not on JF-17,If the chinese are good enough for 5th gen tech.


if the chinese have developed these tech for J-10 or J-11 why were they not on JF-17?

Surely you don't export porduct lacking all these stuff.PAkistanis are claiming that they are joint producers of JF-17 with china , and scouting for EXPORT ORDERS,but the above mentioned simple stuff with 20 year old tech was not on JF-17.

And LRDE is already producing ASEA radars for Indian AWACS system and they have applied for patent on L BAND ATNTENA for ASEA radar. The DRDO chief is on record that" LCA_MK-II will have indigenous asea. The work on miniaturization is going on."

http://-----------------------/threads/indigenous-aesa-radars-for-tejas-mark-2-saraswat.3508/

So don't worry nobody is sleeping on the asea front or engine front in INDIA.

A functioning indian multi mode doppler MMR with some isralei processor elements is on LCA, where is it on JF_17?

I dont need your certificate for not being a troll, mind it.

So you can make your points quietly.
It is natural in a forum for people to counter your posts with sensible source.If you can't stand that you don't need to post.

Posting some stuff and warning the other guy as troll is simple BS.

 

[ersakthivel]

Maybe eveything you said is true, but the only thing we can be certain of at this stage, is that Mirage2000 is 10 times the fighter LCA is, in every freaking way you name it.

Like the LCA , many of the so-called 'indigenous' DRDO projects often end up less than the fancy west-imported parts they are made of. Currently LCA with 40% foreign content is struggling mightily, India needs to raise the figure to 90% like the case of Dhruv, then DRDO would finally have something to celebrate.

Sir ,it is really tough to reply to stuff like this.

Before getting a suitable engine and validating the flight envelope fully it won't equal mirage.But once it is done it will be far superior to mirsge.

With a fraction of mirage's 'RCS and higher TWR than mirage and lower wing loading it will exceed mirage .

The Rcs of tejas will be about 0.3 sq meter in clean configuration.

http://www.------------------/forum...alues-all-fighter-jets-courtesy-antibody.html
http://-----------------------/threads/radar-cross-section-rcs-database.4130/

People CAN RAISE THE INDIGENISATION LEVEL ONLY AFTER MASTEING THE DESIGN.
No local industry will waste their time too much with prototype parts.
Once the total system performs as desired then after the nod of end user with concrete orders indigenisation of other parts will begin.

The ambitious indigenisation list drawn up by ADA includes 21 avionics components (including gyro reference unit, tactical navigation antenna and GPS antenna), 27 environmental control components, 14 electrical components (including under-carriage display unit, integral drive generator and ground power receptacle), ejection seat, nine components in the flight control area (left and right air data sensors, angle of attack sensor, sensor assembly rate).

The list also includes several key LRUs in hydraulics, landing gear, propulsion and fuel, and the aircraft's health and utility management system. In a statement announcing it's interest, the ADA has said, "There are 358 LRUs (components) in the Tejas aircraft, out of which 53 per cent of total LRUs are indigenously developed within India. In view to reduce the remaining 47 per cent of the import LRUs, ADA has initiated the indigenous development programme for indigenisation of the import LRUs."

Because ADA wants private players to participate and HAL wants to graduate to system assembler like other western fighter plane makers.

Already the percentage of composites are in creasing steadily and LRUs are are being indigenised as the program matures.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sigh, you truelly are a troll.
I will try one more time before moving you to my ignore list.

The engines are from Russia along with other items that the buyer requires. If Pakistan wants british made ejection seat, then they should have it. I see no problem with that. The plane was customed to their wishes. What is the problem?

And making stupid comments about a plane that is flying and opertional just makes you look silly. Your LCA isnt even operational and you are mocking the pakistanis? Absurd!

Who cares what you claim. I can back up my claims of J-11B with ws-10a engines and J-10b with AESA.
You can keep dreaming how your non-flying LCA can bring down the likes of F-22 and J-20.
And LCA with AESA? Ha, a good one. First get it operational, then come back to us.

So there is no point in pouring lot of RAM over 5th gen airframe with no matching engine tech and radar and sensor and missile tech and saying we are the number 3 in stealth world.
http://defensetech.org/2011/12/30/the-super-hornet-as-a-stealth-killer/

http://www.------------------/forums/indian-air-force/998-pak-fa-vs-f-22-analysis-18-print.html

This is what modern asea radars and IRST tech will do to you no matter how 5th gen you are.

The combination of ASEA radar and IRST techique can provide weapon quality track even now.Think where these tech woul be in 15 years time from now when J-20 operates.So there is no way you can overcome all this by simple stealth.

 

[ice berg]

So there is no point in pouring lot of RAM over 5th gen airframe with no matching engine tech and radar and sensor and missile tech and saying we are the number 3 in stealth world.
http://defensetech.org/2011/12/30/the-super-hornet-as-a-stealth-killer/

http://www.------------------/forums/indian-air-force/998-pak-fa-vs-f-22-analysis-18-print.html

This is what modern asea radars and IRST tech will do to you no matter how 5th gen you are.

The combination of ASEA radar and IRST techique can provide weapon quality track even now.Think where these tech woul be in 15 years time from now when J-20 operates.So there is no way you can overcome all this by simple stealth.

What does that got anything to do with J-20? Unless you are sitting with inside knowledges, which I very much doubt, you have no way of knowing the state of progress.

Dont assume things you dont know about.

If they rejected the russian offer and instead decided to do it themselves. It meant they were confident they got what it takes to build this thing.

Whether it is justified or not, we will know in a few years time. The people who are working with this program is confident. That is all I need to know.

We dont need certain fan boy with no knowledge and only assumptions to lecture us on the state of chinese aviation.

Take my advice and move on. You can keep talking about your great LCA in your own thread.

 

[J20!]

Like this?

A new radar ftw.

It seems you're right Bergy, the radar suite that's been under evaluation on that Y8 platform seems to have been installed on a new J20 platform, seemingly J2003 even though no number's been painted on it yet

Y8 sensor suite test platform:

 

[J20!]

Here are couple more angles:

I hope CAC and SAC are in healthy competition. Maybe this will spur more J-31 pics.

EDIT: Two more

 

[J20!]

As suspected some of those pics come from video. It starts about at the 1:10 mark:

【56城äº"¹Ã¦"¹ÂÃ¥Â®Â¢Ã£â‚¬'是j-20 2003号机吗?_è§" Ã©Â¢'在线è§,çœ"¹ 2003吗 - 56.com

PS. Hahaha! Where's Armand? It looks like they've installed your "Zhuk PESA" *smh*